Quote from: Rebis on September 08, 2007, 10:36:47 PM
Please God, let this thread die.


Amen


Now I can go to bed happy 

he won't hear you because he isn' there.  

I've waded through may of the posts on this thread, and, honestly, skipped a couple days worth.

I have met a woman in a sundress, with a hairy...I mean VERY hairy chest, and referred to her as ma'am, and she. 

I have met several mildly retarded, mentally challenged (choose what you like) transwomen, who were not aware that they did not 'pass', with eye makeup like Mimi, and bald pates, or bad toupes.  When a number of coworkers pointed them out as objects of ridicule, I called these retarded transwomen, women. 

I've seen poor creatures who were born female, or male, and sadly, with such birth defects, that the only way I could guess their gender was by the way their parents dressed them, and lovingly spooned food into mouths that could hardly function.

I've seen beautiful women, genetic, I suppose, I didn't ask, who had horrible scars that would forever make them less attractive than they were before they encountered whatever misfortune crossed their paths.

I've seen lines of people....just people.  Some ugly, some plain, some cute or handsome, others drop-dead gorgeous.

I've seen transpeople, who before transition, in all liklihood looked fine as the gender they were born into, but less like their desired gender, after long months of transition. 

These transpeople did not transition for you, or me, or anyone else.  They transitioned, like the rest of us to stop their personal pain, and have their minds and bodies match as well as possible.

I find the notion of a scale  'passability' personally repugnant, and chastise myself when I realize I'm being too picky when I'm looking in the mirror myself.

No.  I have no problem viewing and treating any individual as their desired gender, no matter how they look.


Bev

I can't believe the myopic reading on this thread!!!!

Even if we are maming, or whatever the other person, are you in fact treating her in exact same way as you would a GG; treating them EXACTLY the same goes far beyond pronouns and doesn't mean that other way is in any way bad, just different.

I think, this fear of not getting the full GG treatment, even if it may be difficult to tell the difference gets ridiculous in the end.

Quote from: Keira on September 09, 2007, 01:36:39 AM

I can't believe the myopic reading on this thread!!!!

Even if we are maming, or whatever the other person, are you in fact treating her in exact same way as you would a GG; treating them EXACTLY the same goes far beyond pronouns and doesn't mean that other way is in any way bad, just different.

I think, this fear of not getting the full GG treatment, even if it may be difficult to tell the difference gets ridiculous in the end.

Again, I don't know what the full GG treatment entails.  Does it involve a tiarra and cape?  I treat men and women who I don't know the same, as far as I know.  They are all people, they are all just trying to get by.  I don't feel like being a GG or a GM or trans or not trans warrants any special attention from me.  But then, I am incredibly self-absorbed, and really don't pay attention to anyone but myself and friends.

And Beverly, that post was amazing.  Rawk!

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

I disagree with some of your comments, I know a couple of T girls that would never be read in a million years even after close scrutiny. Their appearance, voice, mannerisms are perfect and no different to a Genetic female......they might be the exception to the rule but they certainly exist....

Quote from: Keira on September 09, 2007, 01:36:39 AM

I can't believe the myopic reading on this thread!!!!

are you in fact treating her in exact same way as you would a GG; treating them EXACTLY the same goes far beyond pronouns

The answer, for the myopic, is


YES





Beverly

Quote from: Katia on September 08, 2007, 10:55:36 PM

Quote from: Rebis on September 08, 2007, 10:36:47 PM
Please God, let this thread die.


Amen


Now I can go to bed happy 

he won't hear you because he isn' there.  

I was addressing you.  You are my Goddess now. 

Posted on: September 09, 2007, 11:05:05 AM

---

Quote from: Beverly on September 08, 2007, 11:06:10 PM

I find the notion of a scale  'passability' personally repugnant, and chastise myself when I realize I'm being too picky when I'm looking in the mirror myself.

No.  I have no problem viewing and treating any individual as their desired gender, no matter how they look.


Bev

I love you.   

Beverly,
  Thank you for putting what I was trying to say in such an eloquent way.
Sheila

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

er?
ya sure? i certainly have a pretty crappy trans radar, nor do i LOOK for transpeople, i dont care...
my apearance is female
my speach and mvoement is female
stealth exists...
i was talking to a trans activist who came to talk to our uni's lgbt about doing a trans awareness talk, and she only read me when i TOLD HER i was trans myself.
if you think you can read any transwoman, guess again, because your missing a number of girls who just are female. unless you have chormasome sensing eyeballs, your missing a lot of people who to you are natal females.
a natal female, is a woman regardless of apearance? well depends really, if they look like a guy, then the same applies.
KNOWING someone is a woman, and treating them like a woman is easy,
KNOWING Someone is a woman, yet they physically look male, weather trans or natal female, is HARD, because the visual signals impare things.
i work with a lesbian whos read as male ALL the time. and she doesnt care, but shes undersranding that her apearance leads to slips.
a trans woman who doesnt pass should EXPECT some slips, thier not on purpose most of the time, and people Do try. its not an easy thing to deal with.
you my friend, hold a very steriotyped negative view of what a transwoman is...
R

your right gina. very correct.
some things we cant be forced to think, we can be but polite and tollerant.
R

I'm so glad that we have some people on here that can police the rest of us. I hope you have guide lines set and you make it perfectly clear who is male and who is female. I for one don't view life in the black and white, I do like the colors of the rainbow. I guess I live in a totally different world, but I like my world a lot better. If I have a hair out of place I guess that will knock me down to trash.
Sorry to be so blunt, but that is my opinion.
Sheila

Quote from: Rebis on September 09, 2007, 11:09:08 AM
I was addressing you.  You are my Goddess now. 

demoness is a better noun >

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns. 

Not entirely accurate.  There are GG's like Ann Coulter and Ashley Abbott who have been harrassed by the media for "being" transsexual despite their voice, posture, and attire. (everyone knows they aren't)

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM

Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable. 

Yes, any transsexual man or woman will try their best to undo all characteristics (physical and behavioral) associated with their birth sex.  Most succeed and some don't; however, I disagree with your statement that "something will be noticeable".  This is only true if the transsexual does not pass  or fails to adopt the gender roles related to their target gender.

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement. 

I disagree with this as well.  I don't consider myself a woman who has a "very accurate trans radar" and I live in one of the areas of the world with the most transgender population.  I hardly look at anyone on the street.  In other words I am not obssessed with who is or isn't transsexual anymore.  I guess I am past that phase.

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

Hmmm...I am rather confused with this statement of yours, Fer.  I thought you said you were living your life in stealth.  Did I misunderstand you somehow?  Again, I live in San Francisco, the gay/transgender capital of the world.  I second what another member said here.  If you pass in San Francisco, you will undoubtely pass anywhere else.  Living in stealth doesn't work for anyone, but it is working for me and for many other TS women.



tink

Even in SFO, it depends where you live.
In north beach, telegragh hill or downtown, chinatown (and many similar areas) I never saw any TS that I could recognize (I lived on telegraph hill for 3 years), but in castro, mission or tenderloin, a bit different... I also lived a while in Berkeley and Oakland (6 months) and I didn't recognize much TS there either, though there undoubtably there anyway.

Its all about context.

Many TS in castro where recognizeable not just because of physical appearance, its as if they wanted to be recognized, which is not surprising if you live in that neighborhood.

i think we can say making honest mistakes is not limited to cis-gender people.
although debating this topic in susans IRC last night, i was accused of doing this on purpose to make myself better than these women in question.
R

I'll admit to slipping up on pronouns before, both to friends who I know damn well are male and female respectively. I didn't mean to, it just happened. It can be difficult sometimes to be 100% perfect with someone, especially if they don't pass completely OR you knew them prior to transition. I've had people from my past slip up pronouns (and my name) with me, and I just forgive them and move on. They aren't doing it deliberately, and I think that's where the real problem lies. It's when people are deliberately not respecting your identity that you have every right to be angry about it, whether you pass or not. But a mistake is a mistake, and as long as you recognise the mistake and make a concerted effort to correct it, I don't see the problem. It's sometimes hard initially to see someone as their preferred gender if they don't pass 100% in your eyes, but if you're a good person you'll learn to use the right pronouns and respect their identity.

Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 10:44:13 PM
Good evening guys and dolls.

I know this is a pretty sore topic, but...

Today, my mother had an incident at work.
A woman introduced herself as Ms. So-and-so, and it was very clear she was living as a woman, but her passing quotient was 0%.
Mom understands that mtfs are women and accepts transpeople. But she struggled the whole time to remember she was talking to a woman, not a man, and butchered the pronouns.
When relating this to me, she said that because the woman looked very much like a man, she had a hard time not seeing a man and using female pronouns. But it's not hard when the woman is passable, even if she knows she's trans.

I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

This topic is not meant to be incendiary, but introspective.
Honesty much preferred.

Nero

Another difficult topic with a fairly straight-forward answer. At least until I add a "but" to it.

I seldom "gender" people on the web. I normally allow them to do that. If certain bells and whistles go off, those are for my edification and not for me to share with the person they went off in response to.

I also make some adjustments in how I deal with people from the "feel" of their posts. The way they appear to think, or do not. I attempt to be open to everyone, but there are people I am more likely to find copacetic to me than are other people.

Does "passing" have anything to do with that?

I don't think so. I have experienced in person what Tink explained back on page one of this thread. The meeting, in my case in the flesh, with people I had formed a web-ideal of in my mind. In a couple of cases I have been shocked. In a couple of others also shocked for different reasons.

I have had interactions at some length with TS people who did not blend for reasons of their own presentation of themselves, their looks, or simply in whom they called themselves in person as opposed to their web-persona, etc.

Nero, when someone does not look the part in person and I gender them the way that I and you and all of us tend to gender people in that unconscious human way we do, I then have to consciously give them the pronouns etc that I do. Just like your mom, I have made slips.

I try to respect the person and use the gender designators they request. But, there have been times that my innate sense of someone overrode my superego sense of that person.

Nichole W.

Quote from: Nichole W. on September 10, 2007, 12:41:15 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 31, 2007, 10:44:13 PM
Good evening guys and dolls.

I know this is a pretty sore topic, but...

Today, my mother had an incident at work.
A woman introduced herself as Ms. So-and-so, and it was very clear she was living as a woman, but her passing quotient was 0%.
Mom understands that mtfs are women and accepts transpeople. But she struggled the whole time to remember she was talking to a woman, not a man, and butchered the pronouns.
When relating this to me, she said that because the woman looked very much like a man, she had a hard time not seeing a man and using female pronouns. But it's not hard when the woman is passable, even if she knows she's trans.

I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

This topic is not meant to be incendiary, but introspective.
Honesty much preferred.

Nero

Another difficult topic with a fairly straight-forward answer. At least until I add a "but" to it.

I seldom "gender" people on the web. I normally allow them to do that. If certain bells and whistles go off, those are for my edification and not for me to share with the person they went off in response to.

I also make some adjustments in how I deal with people from the "feel" of their posts. The way they appear to think, or do not. I attempt to be open to everyone, but there are people I am more likely to find copacetic to me than are other people.

Does "passing" have anything to do with that?

I don't think so. I have experienced in person what Tink explained back on page one of this thread. The meeting, in my case in the flesh, with people I had formed a web-ideal of in my mind. In a couple of cases I have been shocked. In a couple of others also shocked for different reasons.

I have had interactions at some length with TS people who did not blend for reasons of their own presentation of themselves, their looks, or simply in whom they called themselves in person as opposed to their web-persona, etc.

Nero, when someone does not look the part in person and I gender them the way that I and you and all of us tend to gender people in that unconscious human way we do, I then have to consciously give them the pronouns etc that I do. Just like your mom, I have made slips.

I try to respect the person and use the gender designators they request. But, there have been times that my innate sense of someone overrode my superego sense of that person.

Nichole W.

Makes sense. I've had times I had to adjust how I deal with a person, not because of looks like you said, because of behaviour. There are some transmen who I at first expect are like every other man, only to discover that they actually take offense to being related to like a man. These types have the same reaction a woman would have to being related to as a man, except these men are not aware of it. They're not aware they're reacting to being talked to and related to as any other guy. They just know they don't like it. Could be a socialization thing, I don't know.

Quote from: regina on September 09, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
And someone who I perceive as completely female is going to be related to differently than someone I view as 'a male looking person in a dress.'

So do in-between people end up on a sliding scale of how they feel, gender-wise?

Or does simply being able to tell someone is TS ruin the whole thing?

Like what about someone who looks and acts like a genetic female at first blush, but within a few minutes the height, adam's apple, so-so voice, some of her mannerisms, etc. make it obvious the person is TS?

~Kate~

And for what it's worth, whenever I've tried to explain this "passing" obsession to non-TS people, they give me this weird blank stare of incomprehension. I've had the same conversation with six or more people now, one of them a few days ago, which goes something like:

"You look so feminine," they tell me.

"But I won't want to look feminine, I need to look FEMALE... you know, like a normal girl," I complain.

And they just stare at me with this "huh?" expression. Seriously, it's gone almost exactly the same way with a half-dozen people now. I can't figure it out. I try to explain passing to them, but it's like they don't hear me. They don't seem to get it, and I have to wonder if it's that they don't think that way, in those terms of "gendering" people into either/or boxes the way TSs often seem too...

~Kate~