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Did anyone else read this before transitioning?

Started by Joan, July 10, 2014, 06:02:45 AM

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stephaniec

I'm quite leery of reading something seemingly using a scientific approach or at least an authoritative approach who doesn't provide information of authoritative credentials. Why hide if you purpose is to help. I just have a severe problem with this. Everything said by this author I have seen throughout my life and in articles , such as employment prospects and social views. It seems to be a view of someone quite possibly who doesn't have a very understanding appreciation of being a transgender. of course as always I could be way off base because of my own bias of trying to understand why rather than worried about societies conundrum of what to do with me. Not that this is the actual case , but it can be viewed as someone who just thinks a transgender shouldn't transition because the society will toss that person in the gutter. I'm sorry I get a little weird sometimes about things being posted without authorship
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Beverly

I read that article somewhere on the net years ago and it scared the hell out of me. It certainly put me off transitioning earlier than I did. It is an out of date, bitter rant with a few truths expressed badly and tarted up with a lot of bile.

It may have been true 20 or 30 years ago in some highly intolerant backwater somewhere but it bears no relation at all to either my transition of that of my trans friends.

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katiej

I agree that it seems quite outdated.  And those who transitioned 25+ years ago seem to all be on a mission to let us know how horrific this whole thing is, because that was their experience.  But as many have said, the world really is different now.  Our community has learned from their mistakes and failures. 

I really object to the narrative that all/most "true transexuals" were abused, addicted to drugs, were severely depressed, had attempted suicide, and were extremely socially impaired.  The so-called experts almost always go on to say that you shouldn't even attempt transition unless your only other option is death.  Really?  Well I'm just not that dramatic about anything in life.

That narrative kept me from transitioning earlier, because they made me feel like I couldn't really be transgender.  After all, I grew up in a stable 2-parent home, I was never abused, and I've never even taken drugs.  I've never attempted suicide, and have only had mild-moderate depression...and that only came on in the last year (I'm now 36). 

I don't fit their narrative, but that doesn't change the fact that I've known since I was 4 that I'm not right in this body.  And I don't appreciate their misguided attempts to steer me away from transition.  I'm not transitioning to get away from my horrific story, I'm transitioning because I need to do it to be me.  I want to have a future where I like who I am.  I'm pursuing the positive, not escaping the negative.  And according to these people that means I'm not a "true transexual."

Having said all that, I think I will read this over anyway as there are probably some tidbits of good information.   :)
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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ana1111

I didn't get to far past the"definitions" which I think are absolutely horrible and wrong... Ive found the exact opposite to be true that no two transsexuals are the same...
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alabamagirl

Quote from: Annabolton on July 11, 2014, 12:25:22 PM
I didn't get to far past the"definitions" which I think are absolutely horrible and wrong... Ive found the exact opposite to be true that no two transsexuals are the same...

Exactly. If there's one thing I've learned from being involved in this community, it's this. There seems to be an infinite number of ways to identify, transition and experience dysphoria. Or not experience dysphoria at all. That was the biggest shock to me -- how different we all are. I had naively assumed all trans* people felt similar to me, once upon a time. Sadly, it sounds like this author never learned that lesson and is simply projecting her own experience onto everyone else.
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Miss_Bungle1991

After reading through this thread and reading the linked thread that Cindy posted, this is my viewpoint on all of it. This ONLY relates to me. This does NOT have anything to do with anyone else on this forum.

Okay.....

If I die from any complications from ANYTHING that is related to any medications that I am taking or medical procedures in relation to my transition, then that is the way that it goes for I. It doesn't matter to me at all. I know for an absolute fact that if I had not done what I did, I would be long dead anyway. Not to mention the fact that I had certain medical issues from birth that had some doctors convinced that I would have been dead by age 18. Well, I'm approaching 40 and I am still here, so whatever happens from here on out is what happens. I'm not going to worry about any of this.
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Carrie Liz

Yup... I read it, and immediately I could sense that this was the personal story of a late-transitioner who was bitter about all the things she'd lost, and I couldn't help but laugh at some of the misinformation she has in there... (there is a lot of really accurate information in there too, but there's definitely a lot of comments that I can't take seriously.)



-"Transsexuals knew from their first memories that they were born in the wrong bodies." Wrong... we have many many transitioners on here (myself included) who didn't develop dysphoria until later in life, and WPATH's official guidelines basically state that this has nothing to do with one's validity as trans.

-"This explains why the vast majority of transsexuals are males..." wrong...

-Trying to claim that all transsexuals fit this same one-fits-all narrative where they knew from the age of 4-6 that something was wrong... again, not correct according to WPATH or the DSM.

-The entire section about young transitioners... "fully enjoying the ignorance of youth in a near perfect body with most of their problems solved!"... Wow, seeing the struggles of young transitioners through rose-colored glasses much? Jealousy showing through much? I know plenty of young transitioners, and they have just as many problems to overcome as anyone else does.

-Sheesh... okay, yes, you're probably going to lose something when you transition, (and I did lose my job,) but she makes it sound like everyone will lose everything due to transition. Again, this just sounds to me like the bitter ramblings of someone who did lose everything.

-"You surrender all you knew and loved, all your hope and self respect, and you trade it all for nothing more than a closet full of slutty club clothes and a few spike heeled shoes. You give up everything and what do you get in return? Prejudice and anger, misunderstanding and ridicule, beatings and death in the streets. You cannot get a job, you have no money, and the world insists that it constantly remind you that you do not belong... because you made a choice... a choice to live as a 6 foot tall, broad shouldered, ugly, hairy man in a dress. A choice to give up all you had for the right to wear pantyhose in public. Right."... Okay, while the intent here is admirable, to make sure that people who are just fetishizing about wearing "slutty" clothes and "playing girl" all the time know what they're getting into, this is just way too harsh on girls like me and my friends who really don't give two s***s about looking feminine as long as we can be girls, and spend most of our lives going out in t-shirts and jeans and normal everyday things. Plus I have to say, that entire phrase culminating in "ugly hairy man in a dress" is seriously just mean.

-Again, assuming that all trans women begin as crossdressers, and come to transition because they slowly get worse and worse. (I have to ask, was this article really written for trans women, or was it written to keep ->-bleeped-<-s away? That's what it seems like, is that it's basically speaking to ->-bleeped-<-s and others who fetishize transition, telling them to keep it in the realm of fantasy.)

-Seriously? "You will most likely never hear from any family ever again, that is just the odds at work."? Bulls***. I've yet to meet a trans woman in real life who lost her entire family. I know it happens sometimes, but most of the older transitioners I know, even those with kids, still keep in contact with them and still have great relationships with them. Yes, there's some resentment and some misgendering involved, and often an initial phase of denial, but going completely into the "I never want to see you again" realm is nowhere near as certain as she makes it sound like. Most families are at least willing to listen, and can accept that you're still the same person. Maybe I'm just biased too because I didn't lose any family or friends at all due to transition, but seriously, I think that just proves that transition isn't the social death-sentence she makes it out to be.

-"The friend thing is funny, but quite understandable in the end. You will lose all of them when you transition, just accept that."... Again, BULLS***. I came out in a very public fashion, right out front by just changing my name on my Facebook page and announcing that I was trans, and I didn't lose a single friend, plus got begged to come to my friends' 10-year high school reunion. Again... transition is not a death sentence. And I hate that this article is making all of these losses seem completely 100% certain and inevitable. They're not. Some will lose a lot. I'm not denying that. But it's not the big freaking deal that this article makes it out to be.

-"You are transitioning because you ARE different, and this is what makes all the difference to your friendships! What drew you together, what kept you together, is gone now. If you think you will still hunt and fish and play ball and chase women together, you are wrong..."... this makes me really question the author. I mean, am I doing this whole thing wrong? Because the last time I checked, my friends liked me because I had a good sense of humor, loved quoting nerdy references, doing voice imitations, and was a generally friendly and nice person who they knew they could trust to talk to, not because I had a penis.

Okay, can I ask this? Is this author seriously insinuating that one goes from being so deep in denial pre-transition that they refused to do absolutely anything that might get them read as gender-nonconforming, anything that might make people think that they were "gay" or anything? Are they seriously that deep in denial that they insist on doing only "masculine" things, and that therefore post-transition they really don't have any of those things left? And how is it even possible to go from completely male interests to completely female interests to the point where you have NOTHING in common with your old self like that? Isn't that just trading one set of cultural expectations that you're trying to live up to for another set of cultural expectations that you're trying to live up to? Going from being a stereotypical male to a stereotypical female? Maybe that's why this author is so bitter and miserable about transition... because just like she was trying to assert her maleness pre-transition, maybe now she's trying to assert her femaleness post-transition, and likewise failing to live up to those same cultural standards of femininity? Again, I'm biased on this, because I had very gender-neutral interests pre-transition, and now post-transition all I've done is taken that same basic behavior and added a few arbitrary things like nail painting and cute accessories which I really weren't "allowed" to do pre-transition. Every person I've met has realized that I'm exactly the same person they knew pre-transition, just a girl now. So frankly I feel like this entire article is lacking a true sense of personhood and authenticity. I feel like she's whining about how she's not living up to society's standards of femininity.

-"If you are a real transsexual, you were born a woman. All you did after the childhood beatings and ridicule was designed to cover up the truth through exaggeration. You learned to become a man, to project the image of a man to the world. You were not though. It was, in fact, all a lie."... yup. There we go. I knew it. And come on, "if you are a REAL transsexual?" Bulls***. All I see in this post is "Look at how authentically trans I am because I SUFFERED!" and "Look at how authentically female I am, because I do womanly things and my male friends don't understand me anymore!"

-"Of the millions of men who attempt the transition, less than 15% make it, and that 15% certainly does not have it easy. Think about this too... the 85% that fail? They go back to living as a man, in the comfortable world they knew and can function in."... According to what? I've NEVER seen that mentioned anywhere before, and there's no citation or anything. So is it right for me to assume that this is just a statistic that you pulled out of thin air?

-"You have looked at all the silly feminine websites out there from Crossdresser Sally and Terri-the-TV to Jean's World and The Rose Garden... you know, the giggling female wannabees who have websites with flowers and pink scripted writing all over them. They talk about their wonderful lives in spike heels and satin corsets, giggle about the silky clothing, and flirt with the boys as if they were a 45 year old schoolgirl."... Again, am I living in a different world here? Is she really talking about transsexual women here, or is she talking about cross-dressers? Or maybe it's just a Cleveland thing, where just about every trans woman my age that I've ever met doesn't give two s***s about pink and frills and corsets and thinks that these markers of femininity are horribly cliched? They see transition as actually being physically female, getting smooth skin and boobs and "female" fat and a vagina as their primary transition goals, not to be able to go around in some feminine princess fantasy? Again, I don't know. This just doesn't ring true to me at all.



I'll stop there. Again, all I see in her writings is bitterness, overblown doom-and-gloom, jealousy of young transitioners, overcompensatig and divisive wording that puts other people down for the sake of her feeling superior and "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" and "womanlier than thou," (you know anyone who says "TRUE transsexual" in anything is pulling that nonsense,) and it frankly feels like one giant vent of self-loathing more than anything.

Also, again, I feel like this was almost written more for cross-dressers than for transsexuals. It reads like one giant discouragement for people who are fetishizing transition and who really do think that femaleness is all about frills and dresses and makeup and heels, rather than for people who see femaleness as nothing more than another way to be human and do normal everyday human stuff. So, okay, I guess it serves a purpose to keep fetishists who probably shouldn't transition from transitioning, but it's seriously just so unnecessarily discouraging to those who are transsexual. How many people have staved off transition for these exact reasons, because they were afraid of being a freak, because they were afraid of just looking like a "man in a dress," and ultimately denied themselves of happiness because of it? This article is SO hurtful in that regard.

I guess all I can say is, trans girls, take this article as one person's experience, and take it as a worst-case scenario, the ramblings of a very bitter woman who went through hell and lost everything and everyone due to transition, and so she thinks that she can make generalizing statements about everyone. Likewise, take my responses to her as the ramblings of a trans girl who didn't get dysphoria until I was a teenager, didn't really "overcompensate," and who avoided transition for a good 13 years because of "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" articles exactly like this making me question myself and scaring me away from it due to social fear. I told myself for years and years and years "nobody would understand." Well, guess what? They did understand.
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Allyda

Carrie, a lot of what you said about this article hits home with me and I agree with your views 100% My situation is different, but like you say that's how it is, we're all a little different in who we are, what we went through, and how we got to this point in our lives. So yes, I agree this article should be taken as one woman's experience, nothing more.

I thank you for saying what needed to be said about this. :icon_bunch:

Ally :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Carrie Liz

Okay, I'm sorry for double-posting here, but I just read something that is seriously the straw that broke the camel's back:

"For every girl who does actually get the surgery, another ten do not. At last count there were 100,000 post-op TS's on the North American continent. That means that about a million pre-op TS's are out there! And why? Because of the money? Nope... A girl will spend $15,000 on hair removal, $20,000 on facial feminization, and another $20,000 on clothes, but not $20,000 on the ultimate girl-creating operation? Pray tell, why?

I'll tell you why... simply put, a true transsexual is rare."


Do I even need to say it? That's seriously the last straw. Don't listen to anything that this bigoted "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" b**** has to say. She's seriously claiming that anyone who doesn't want SRS isn't a "true" transsexual, and that lesbians aren't "true" transsexuals. She's trying to prop herself up on a pedastal of transness by bringing others down and belittling their desires to transition, and propping herself up on a pedestal of femaleness because she does womanly things. Again, screw you, b****. She's officially crossed the line from mildly offensive into bigoted hurtful intolerance territory.

(She even tries to claim in the "transition" section that the average trans woman is more feminine than the average cis-woman because they have more "pent-up feminine sexual energy" and know how to jerk guys off. Just wow...)

Again, trying way too hard to validate one's transness and one's femaleness much?
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stephaniec

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 11, 2014, 08:45:46 PM
Okay, I'm sorry for double-posting here, but I just read something that is seriously the straw that broke the camel's back:

"For every girl who does actually get the surgery, another ten do not. At last count there were 100,000 post-op TS's on the North American continent. That means that about a million pre-op TS's are out there! And why? Because of the money? Nope... A girl will spend $15,000 on hair removal, $20,000 on facial feminization, and another $20,000 on clothes, but not $20,000 on the ultimate girl-creating operation? Pray tell, why?

I'll tell you why... simply put, a true transsexual is rare."


I'm sorry... F*** YOU!!! That's it. Don't listen to a damned thing that this bigoted "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" b**** has to say. She's seriously claiming that anyone who doesn't want SRS isn't a "true" transsexual, and that lesbians aren't "true" transsexuals. Again, f*** you, b****. She's officially crossed the line from mildly offensive into bigoted intolerance territory.
ditto   (I'm glad I only skimmed the first chapter)
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Shakira

I read it last year and it scared the stuffing out of me.
Didn't change my mind.
And she has a perfect right to be a nasty bitter old cat lady with a transgender history.
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stephaniec

Quote from: Shakira on July 11, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
I read it last year and it scared the stuffing out of me.
Didn't change my mind.
And she has a perfect right to be a nasty bitter old cat lady with a transgender history.
I just skimmed the other chapters the invisible identity person is definitely bitter/
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Ms Grace

Carrie, that is a wonderfully accurate and devastating deconstruction. Nice job!
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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katiej

Carrie, that was FANTASTIC!

One thing stood out to me in the opening paragraphs. She was very proud of the fact that she only ever had 2 negative comments about the book compared to thousands of positive comments. Hmm.  If that's true, why has every last person here had nothing but bad things to say about it?

->-bleeped-<-r than thou. Indeed.
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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Carrie Liz

#54
Summary of Chapter 2:

-Anyone who is "out and proud" isn't really a woman
-Anyone who doesn't want SRS isn't really a woman
-Anyone who identifies as "transsexual" or as a "trans woman" rather than just "a woman" isn't really a woman
-Anyone who identifies as genderqueer or anything other than male or female is a freak... "you're either born male or female."
-Anyone who is an activist or out publicly or campaigning for trans rights isn't really a woman
-People who are indeed campaigning for trans rights are only doing it because they're too cowardly to go stealth or because they're upset about being unable to go stealth, or they're not "real women" because they love the trans label
-Anyone who visits trans forums or goes to support groups isn't a woman... if you were a real woman you'd quickly realize you didn't belong there
-Trans women shouldn't compete in sports, because it makes it harder for "true" transsexuals to just be women without medical scrutiny
-Sexual orientation doesn't really exist, any woman can be either straight or a lesbian if she decides to
-Therefore, trans lesbians don't really exist, they're really just trans women who are too cowardly to date straight men and too cowardly to be female enough to go stealth, because being sloppy and claiming that you're a lesbian is easier than being a "real woman" (kinda indirectly insinuating that lesbians aren't "real women" either.)
-Unless you are completely stealth, people aren't really accepting you, they're just tolerating you
-Nobody really passes


Shouldn't have expected much else...

Yet again, there was some useful information, but it's interspersed with a bunch of horror stories about murder and doom and gloom and about how nobody "really" accepts trans women, and divisive self-promoting bulls*** about who is a "real" woman and who isn't, and why she's a "real" woman because she dates straight men and does womanly things and cares about her hair and presentation and being desirable to men unlike those lesser inauthentic trans lesbians. *goans...*

(Also, I find it HILARIOUSLY ironic that she acknowledges that passing is really hard, that violence against trans women happens, discrimination happens, and that being in this "purgatory" phase of transition completely sucks, ALSO acknowledging that a great many trans women are stuck there permanently and don't even have the option of going stealth, and yet at the same time she's belittling the very people who are campaigning to make this between-genders phase of transition more tolerable. I can't believe she doesn't see the sheer stupidity in that...)
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alabamagirl

Ugh... As a trans* lesbian who has had to deal with this sort of "you're not a REAL woman because you like other women" nonsense, this makes me rage. Seriously, where does this notion come from that to be authentically feminine you have to be attracted to masculinity? How does that even make any logical sense? Urgh!

*deep breaths*
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androgynouspainter26

My gender problem isn't half as bad as society's.  Although mine is still pretty bad.
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Allyda

Quote from: Pikachu on July 11, 2014, 11:25:09 PM
Ugh... As a trans* lesbian who has had to deal with this sort of "you're not a REAL woman because you like other women" nonsense, this makes me rage. Seriously, where does this notion come from that to be authentically feminine you have to be attracted to masculinity? How does that even make any logical sense? Urgh!

*deep breaths*
Ditto! I feel the same way Pikachu! You took the words from my fingers. By her reasoning, cis lesbians aren't real women either. Let her go try and tell one of them that.

Ally :icon_flower:
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Jenna Marie

Carrie Liz : That was FANTASTIC.  I only wish I could have done as good a job as you did tearing it apart, so I'll just point to your posts in admiration and say I agree 100%. :)

I tried to read a bit of this early on... and it damned near convinced me I shouldn't transition, because I didn't know when I was a toddler, I was not hyper-masculine (or planning to be hyper-feminine) and I preferred women. I spent a long time thinking I was, in fact, a fake and a lie because of crap like this. And yet, I've transitioned - including her holy grail of bottom surgery, thanks - and am blissfully happy, so I may not be a "true transsexual" but I am really trans.
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Aina

From what I've read, a lot of what was written seems to go against a lot of what people report.

The whole idea that "you are no longer you" just seemed a bit to fiction to me....

Not to say that everything was wrong, but the writer really seemed kind of negative....
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