If someone who isn't trans (but might think they are) takes hormones, what would be the result?  Some kind of immediate realization that something is horribly wrong, or would the hormones make the person think they are trans after all?

Hormones don't make you feel trans, in many cases they will help relieve dysphoria in trans people. I have only heard of studies, none that I can verify, that when cis people take hormones opposite to their identified gender, they do not feel great at all.

Cool.  Just checking...

I also think it would be interesting to definitively know what happens to non-trans people when they take hormones. I know that a lifetime of producing my own testosterone wasn't enough to make me want to be male, so I can only assume that if a cis-male took estrogen it shouldn't do anything to make them want to be female, but I don't know of any real research that would confirm that assumption. If such a thing existed, it might actually help convince my parents I really am trans, because that's something I'm still struggling with.

Quote from: Miyuki on July 19, 2014, 06:43:18 AM
...it might actually help convince my parents I really am trans, because that's something I'm still struggling with.

That's what I was getting at, although you phrased it so much more clearly.  I too am trying to avoid the situation where I say the HRT is making me feel better (comfortably feminine) and my SO says, "Well duh, of course taking estrogen would make you feel more feminine.  It would make anyone feel more feminine and it's not proof that you're actually trans."

Well it doesn't make me feel more feminine anyway - it just makes me feel normal.

It is a darn good question.  I would love to see the results of such a study.  The concept of a female structured brain requiring estrogen to function smoothly gives me great solice- but I have not researched it.

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 07:15:24 AM
That's what I was getting at, although you phrased it so much more clearly.  I too am trying to avoid the situation where I say the HRT is making me feel better (comfortably feminine) and my SO says, "Well duh, of course taking estrogen would make you feel more feminine.  It would make anyone feel more feminine and it's not proof that you're actually trans."

Brenda, I'm really, really troubled by this.

No on, NO ONE, should ever ask you to "prove" you're trans.

Anyone who does, doesn't understand and needs SERIOUS education.

Whether you are trans or not is UNIMPORTANT. What's important is that you feel the need to move your physical and/or social being in a female direction. That you'll be very unhappy if you don't.

That's pretty much the ONLY test for being trans. There is no other proof.

Why is your SO demanding proof of your being trans?

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 19, 2014, 08:38:46 AM
Brenda, I'm really, really troubled by this.

No on, NO ONE, should ever ask you to "prove" you're trans.

Anyone who does, doesn't understand and needs SERIOUS education.

Whether you are trans or not is UNIMPORTANT. What's important is that you feel the need to move your physical and/or social being in a female direction. That you'll be very unhappy if you don't.

That's pretty much the ONLY test for being trans. There is no other proof.

Why is your SO demanding proof of your being trans?

you hit that right on the nail! In my opinion if you think your trans then your probably trans... Its such a subjective thing that's different for everyone...You definitely shouldn't have to "prove" it!

Quote from: Annabolton on July 19, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
You definitely shouldn't have to "prove" it!

Yes, I agree...and was thinking EXACTLY the same. Just do what feels right and screw those that need proof.

I imagine if a non-trans person took hormones, it would be a lot like what I felt going through the wrong puberty.

Hormones mess with your head. Like, I always felt like my mind was programmed to work one way, and yet in real life it never worked like that. I was way shorter-tempered than I wanted to be. I was never able to cry when I felt like I should be crying. I looked in the mirror and the big male shape with the body hair and the male musculature just felt wrong. The male sex drive felt wrong. I felt short-tempered, constantly on-edge, never able to truly relax, unnaturally obsessive with things, and almost like I was constantly fighting against myself. And I had no idea that hormones would fix these things. But they did. All of them.

Hormones made me feel normal again, and made me feel like the circuits in my head were finally "right" again, for the first time since I was 12 years old.

So yeah... I imagine for someone who takes the hormones of the opposite sex, it would make them too feel like their mind was working "wrong," their body was becoming "wrong," and like the wiring was off for some reason.

I really don't know.  Maybe you should ask one of the people here who detransitioned for that very reason.  I'm sure they can give you more insight than we who feel are on the right path with hormones.  But even then I bet it'll be different with every person.

People who aren't trans of course will question and scrutinize every little aspect about you if you give them the oppurtunity.  Especially those close to you.  I'd imagine because they want you to be the same person you've been for years, however miserable you were.  A lot of people don't like change.  Its unfortunate, but if they see you are happier for transistioning and are still being a jerk....well then they've got some issues of their own.

You're all exactly right.  I shouldn't have to prove it to anyone.  I think my SO is genuinely looking out for me and trying to make sure I'm not making a mistake, and having me justify my feelings in rational terms is her way of dealing with this logically.  It's hard, though, to put these feelings into words, and it's hard to figure out any logical tests for my own trans-ness that seem appropriate.

The hormones were supposed to be something conclusive.  They've worked; I like them - a lot!  But instead of making peace with the diagnosis that I'm definitely trans because only a trans girl would react to hormones in such a positive way, it's become another situation where she's worried that the hormones would have the same pleasant effect on any guy who takes them.

I can't win.  But as you both rightly say, I need to stop playing by someone else's rules.  I'm the one who decides who I am, not anyone else, and I have nothing to prove.

When I started hrt i felt relief like a nail had been pulled out of an old wound. Feminity came out with time as i let myself out little by little. A lot was learned behaviors, things little girls learn in there youths i had to learn at the age of 30 something.

So a non trans taking hormones might feel the exact opposite, meaning like i felt before (putting back the nail in the wound)

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 09:25:08 AM
You're all exactly right.  I shouldn't have to prove it to anyone.  I think my SO is genuinely looking out for me and trying to make sure I'm not making a mistake, and having me justify my feelings in rational terms is her way of dealing with this logically.  It's hard, though, to put these feelings into words, and it's hard to figure out any logical tests for my own trans-ness that seem appropriate.

The hormones were supposed to be something conclusive.  They've worked; I like them - a lot!  But instead of making peace with the diagnosis that I'm definitely trans because only a trans girl would react to hormones in such a positive way, it's become another situation where she's worried that the hormones would have the same pleasant effect on any guy who takes them.

I can't win.  But as you both rightly say, I need to stop playing by someone else's rules.  I'm the one who decides who I am, not anyone else, and I have nothing to prove.

Tell her to take testosterone for 2 weeks and watch her face as you tell her that

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Tell her to take testosterone for 2 weeks and watch her face as you tell her that
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Wouldn't recommend but good reply!

Actually, they do.

Males are given estradiol and antiandrogens to reduce prostate swelling, and certain types of prostate cancer.

In nearly all cases the male body feminizes as would be expected from what we MTF's refer to as HRT.  However, the males who receive this treatment, who have not been diagnosed as transsexual, regularly feel depressed, sad, and angry from the loss of their manhood.  The depression can become quite severe and require anti-depressants in addition to the cross hormone therapy.

The do not become calm, they become quite agitated.  They do not feel more feminine, they feel that they have been deprived.  Conversely, trans women often times become more calm and serene.

It is not conclusive proof of being trans, but it is statistically significant.

Unfortunately, there is no common cross hormone therapy for women that has any clinical basis, so it is difficult to say if this would be true for trans men.

-Sandy

Quote from: Brenda E on July 19, 2014, 09:25:08 AM
You're all exactly right.  I shouldn't have to prove it to anyone.  I think my SO is genuinely looking out for me and trying to make sure I'm not making a mistake, and having me justify my feelings in rational terms is her way of dealing with this logically.  It's hard, though, to put these feelings into words, and it's hard to figure out any logical tests for my own trans-ness that seem appropriate.

The hormones were supposed to be something conclusive.  They've worked; I like them - a lot!  But instead of making peace with the diagnosis that I'm definitely trans because only a trans girl would react to hormones in such a positive way, it's become another situation where she's worried that the hormones would have the same pleasant effect on any guy who takes them.

I can't win.  But as you both rightly say, I need to stop playing by someone else's rules.  I'm the one who decides who I am, not anyone else, and I have nothing to prove.

You're not asking my advice, so please ignore everything I say if it's not helpful.

IMO trying to please your SO by convincing her you're trans is not helpful. Her concerns come from a place of anxiety and are not going to be calmed by any demonstrations of your "transness". You can, of course, educate her what it means to be trans, how transgender is diagnosed (pretty much, if you want to transition and can't think of any other reason why, you're trans), etc. But in the end, cisgender people have such a horror of transitioning, that they will generate this anxiety that we'll be very unhappy. You can't control/change/fix that. That's up to her.

As I said above, please ignore all this if it's not helpful.

Suzi, you're always helpful.

  From what I gather, HRT in the wrong person would feel much like how I did without it.  In a normally-functioning system it would throw off the balance similar to what happens at menopause or 'manopause'.  It would also result in the person feeling they were losing their identity due to physical changes rather than gaining or confirming their identity as in a transperson.  (I would describe my experience in transition and on HRT more as "gaining" or "learning" my identity starting out on a strong hunch.)

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 19, 2014, 09:02:36 AM
Hormones mess with your head. Like, I always felt like my mind was programmed to work one way, and yet in real life it never worked like that. I was way shorter-tempered than I wanted to be. I was never able to cry when I felt like I should be crying. I looked in the mirror and the big male shape with the body hair and the male musculature just felt wrong. The male sex drive felt wrong. I felt short-tempered, constantly on-edge, never able to truly relax, unnaturally obsessive with things, and almost like I was constantly fighting against myself. And I had no idea that hormones would fix these things. But they did. All of them.

Hormones made me feel normal again, and made me feel like the circuits in my head were finally "right" again, for the first time since I was 12 years old.

  I think this sums up my own experience well-enough that I won't have to repeat my own story in great detail.  As a natural-born skeptic I went into HRT with high hopes but no expectations.  The results were so abruptly strong in turning my mind and body around that I cannot dispute the need for HRT in my system and can say with great certainty that there is little to no placebo-effect.  I went from the complete bottom of despair and discomfort to calm, cheerful and overwhelmingly physically at peace in my nerves and my gut.

  Removing my depression restored my ability to look forward to the future instead of just dragging myself through day-by-day.  I have quite literally left behind a very different person.  I used to feel I looked so awkward smiling that it appeared a strained expression and eventually I just looked miserable all the time.  Now I feel fully natural cracking a big grin and do it often.

  Since I only know my own experience I can't be certain of how HRT would affect a non-transperson but I have to believe it would be along the lines of reversing my transition process.  I can't imagine that being anything other than definitively negative for a non-transperson.