I've just had a thought while reading some of the posts within the Overcoming Self-Hate and Fear thread and I'm sure some of you have experienced this before.
Forgive me if I offend anyone, that is not my intention.
I remember reading somewhere that there are mainly two 'groups' (lack of a better word) of trans* people, ones that know for certain at a very early age, and ones that discover it at some point in life, with the feelings intensifying over time.
Now I put myself in the latter (which is the much larger group), since I don't think I've always known for certain, and still don't.

So the question that I wanted to ask was, are we somehow convincing ourselves that being trans* is truly us when it's not?
I mean that through all of the research that we do on trans* topics, soul searching and recalling memories that 'confirm' your desired gender identity, our minds trick us into thinking that this is really us when you
For me realizing this question got me stuck, I don't know how to answer it because I can't trust the answer I give.

I may not have explained this very well, it was tough to put into words. 

I struggle with this at times, however, those memories you talk of are real, not made up. Perhaps at a young age I didn't have what I needed to interpret feelings and events, but they happened. They mean something.

If we're not trans what are we? Nothing else fits unless you believe we're transplanted aliens. I certainly felt alien enough as a child. I didn't have the behaviors or interests of a boy, no matter how hard my father tried to develop them in me.

Nothing else reasonable fits. I can't speak for you, but I'm in my right mind and, as my therapist says, who in their right mind would CHOOSE to be trans?

Quote from: NextUsername on July 22, 2014, 01:06:40 PM
I've just had a thought while reading some of the posts within the Overcoming Self-Hate and Fear thread and I'm sure some of you have experienced this before.
Forgive me if I offend anyone, that is not my intention.
I remember reading somewhere that there are mainly two 'groups' (lack of a better word) of trans* people, ones that know for certain at a very early age, and ones that discover it at some point in life, with the feelings intensifying over time.
Now I put myself in the latter (which is the much larger group), since I don't think I've always known for certain, and still don't.

So the question that I wanted to ask was, are we somehow convincing ourselves that being trans* is truly us when it's not?
I mean that through all of the research that we do on trans* topics, soul searching and recalling memories that 'confirm' your desired gender identity, our minds trick us into thinking that this is really us when you
For me realizing this question got me stuck, I don't know how to answer it because I can't trust the answer I give.

I may not have explained this very well, it was tough to put into words. 

I kinda' think you are overthinking things a little too much. I knew from an early age and even though I have bouts with dysphoria at times I am more of the nonbinary type. I don't fit the typical male persona and never have, ways of thinking are way more female than male, emotions too. When I do act male it is more or less forced and kind of over the top. When I act female it definately comes way more naturally and feels more normal. I guess from knowing at an early age I kind of grew into both, one the (male) as a mask and the other (the female) as the true person behind the mask. With kind of mixed up physical attributes of both.

Quote from: NextUsername on July 22, 2014, 01:06:40 PM
So the question that I wanted to ask was, are we somehow convincing ourselves that being trans* is truly us when it's not?
I mean that through all of the research that we do on trans* topics, soul searching and recalling memories that 'confirm' your desired gender identity.

I know for a fact that I am who I am. There's no "convincing" involved here. When I was a pre-teen and I started reading up on this, there was no internet. I had to look through encyclopedias and other types of books for scraps of information. I could write a book on all of my thoughts, feelings, actions, etc, that were absolutely authentic. I didn't need to rely on revisionist history on down the road because I lived it, and the memories are burned into my brain.

I am one of the ones who knew from an early age and back then I was the one who was considered delusional! They even threatened to lock me up in an institution and provide shock 'therapy' and other lovely things. 

Quote from: Dee Walker on July 22, 2014, 01:51:33 PM
I struggle with this at times, however, those memories you talk of are real, not made up. Perhaps at a young age I didn't have what I needed to interpret feelings and events, but they happened. They mean something.

That's what I'm scared of, that my mind is somehow altering my view on these memories - that what I remember is what I want to remember.

Quote from: Dee Walker on July 22, 2014, 01:51:33 PM
If we're not trans what are we? Nothing else fits unless you believe we're transplanted aliens. I certainly felt alien enough as a child. I didn't have the behaviors or interests of a boy, no matter how hard my father tried to develop them in me.

Alien? For me it was more surreal, nothing felt real, like I was there to observe and not include myself.

Quote from: Dee Walker on July 22, 2014, 01:51:33 PM
Nothing else reasonable fits. I can't speak for you, but I'm in my right mind and, as my therapist says, who in their right mind would CHOOSE to be trans?

That's a good point, we may just all be crazy then. 

Quote from: Jess42 on July 22, 2014, 01:55:02 PM
I kinda' think you are overthinking things a little too much. I knew from an early age and even though I have bouts with dysphoria at times I am more of the nonbinary type. I don't fit the typical male persona and never have, ways of thinking are way more female than male, emotions too. When I do act male it is more or less forced and kind of over the top. When I act female it definately comes way more naturally and feels more normal. I guess from knowing at an early age I kind of grew into both, one the (male) as a mask and the other (the female) as the true person behind the mask. With kind of mixed up physical attributes of both.

I also think I'm over-thinking it, but I don't know what else to do!

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on July 22, 2014, 02:40:35 PM
I know for a fact that I am who I am. There's no "convincing" involved here. When I was a pre-teen and I started reading up on this, there was no internet. I had to look through encyclopedias and other types of books for scraps of information. I could write a book on all of my thoughts, feelings, actions, etc, that were absolutely authentic. I didn't need to rely on revisionist history on down the road because I lived it, and the memories are burned into my brain.

I'm Envious, I have no idea who I am!

Quote from: Northern Jane on July 22, 2014, 03:10:09 PM
I am one of the ones who knew from an early age and back then I was the one who was considered delusional! They even threatened to lock me up in an institution and provide shock 'therapy' and other lovely things. 

Oh, that sounds horrible! What ever happened?

Quote from: NextUsername on July 22, 2014, 03:18:28 PM
I'm Envious, I have no idea who I am!

Well, it didn't help me at all, really. I was constantly told that what I felt was wrong, was constantly picked on, etc. I didn't come out until I was 29. I wanted to at 19, but there was some other things going on that prevented me from doing it. I lost the next decade due to a lot of drinking and drug use that was caused by a lot of suicidal thoughts that I had from age 10 onward. So, a lot of stuff totally sucked for a long time.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on July 22, 2014, 03:25:04 PM
Well, it didn't help me at all, really. I was constantly told that what I felt was wrong, was constantly picked on, etc. I didn't come out until I was 29. I wanted to at 19, but there was some other things going on that prevented me from doing it. I lost the next decade due to a lot of drinking and drug use that was caused by a lot of suicidal thoughts that I had from age 10 onward. So, a lot of stuff totally sucked for a long time.

Ouch, guess I jumped the gun a bit there, apologies. 

i feel like people tend to live in the past too much. were you aware you may be trans since you were a child? fair enough. were you not aware until much later in life? fair enough. i don't see why the "when" of this discovery should make one's experience any less valid. if, right now, you feel you are trans, or are questioning your own identity, that is enough. and whether the "convincing oneself" bit is true or not is more a philosophical question really, and it can't really be answered in a unified way. it's something you have to ask yourself. however in my two cents, i don't think transgender people would exist at all if all of this was just us convincing ourselves of something, as eventually everybody would wind up in pits of regret and misery, and clearly that isn't happening.

Quote from: NextUsername on July 22, 2014, 03:29:15 PM
Ouch, guess I jumped the gun a bit there, apologies. 

It's all good. No need to apologize. Everyone has different experiences.

I've been desperately trying to convince myself for almost as long as I can remember that I am just delusional, or I just have some kind of broken, sick fantasy or something. That it might go away. But it hasn't.

Sometimes I even manage to believe it. But even then, I wake up unhappy with who I am, just refusing to acknowledge why. And eventually, I catch some fleeting glimpse in the mirror, or encounter the story of some stranger who reminds me that I am not at all who I want to be, and it all comes crashing down. Hard.

I'll be 28 tomorrow, and like Laura shared, I too feel like I've completely wasted my last ten years in drugs. I have nothing to show for any of my adult life, I'm unhappy with every day of it, and I feel like the darkness is closing in on me. I don't want to waste ten more, and I just want to be genuinely happy with myself for once without destroying myself by getting high.

So maybe I really am just delusional, but I don't think I can find out on my own anymore. I think I'm finally ready to take the plunge and a step out into what is "forbidden" territory for me, wherever that path may eventually lead.

Even for those of us like me who knew from an early age, the "call" to express your true gender become an imperative as we grow older, to the point that for some us, most unfortunately, failure to transition leads to suicide....

My feeling on this issue is that is not about "convincing our selves that we are trans" but rather "stopping trying to convince ourselves that we are not"....

I do not know when you thought you were trans or if you felt wrong at an early age and had other corresponding feelings of being different than your birth sex and more like the other. What is clear is you have self hatred and a gender therapist can help you answer your questions.

I told my Mom when I was 5 (dresses in my sisters cloths) and looking back now from her perspective she must have been terrified and acted accordingly. The more I insisted I was a girl the more she panicked and hurt me. I finally got away and ran to the attic. In 1967 my therapist said I would have been institutionalized.

I have been on a journey to be myself, get rid if the shame and self hatred and survive. Your dysphoria may get worse as you age to the point of an intake or worse. 

I've often wondered whether I'm imposing a narrative on past events to suit present beliefs so I'd hope I can begin to appreciate some of NextUsername's worries, though would never dare equate. For instance, I've deeply worried about the weighting I've given to childhood memories and whether I'm unwittingly selecting favourable recollections while unknowingly excluding inconvenient ones. This is despite 'knowing' about needing to be female from childhood and beginning transition plans at twelve. For me, knowing at a young age didn't mean certainty later on.

I think I questioned my identity, and still sometimes question aspects, because we live in a society that is heavily against violating gender assignments and treats them like destiny. I believe internalising that led to me trying to self-apply every alternative explanation for years, no matter how ridiculously contrived they seem in retrospect. I viewed transition as a last resort that should only ever be tried when desperate and unwaveringly sure rather than a positive choice that could be made to improve my life. I viewed identifying as transgender as something to be absolutely avoided irrespective of whether it could help me make sense of who I am in a helpful way.

The idea that assigned gender is somehow inherently better and superior to being transgender impacted a lot of my thinking. After a while, I realised there's no real reason to regard identifying with assigned gender as inherently less likely to be an illusion that's reinforced by interpreting life in a convenient way. If anything it'd be more likely due to the lack of self-scrutiny. For me, the difference is that one is simply the majority and has social power behind it to uphold its assumed legitimacy. It seemed so ridiculous that people deviating from baseless norms had to be 'sure' whereas people complying with them just got to assume they're correct. Given that view, I thought I'd be risking being oblivious to an illusion in any circumstances. My identity is just as legitimate either way.

Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter whether I'll view my identification as wrong in the future or whether I am 'delusional' in some way because it changes absolutely nothing in the present. How I got here doesn't change who I am now. I remain me and being transgender remains a part of how I make sense of myself or everything else. I am still suffering now and have absolutely no way of knowing if a hypothetical delusional will ever come to an end. I also will not take a position that assumes if I reject transition or being trans in the future then it must be the case that I would've been happier not transitioning or not identifying as trans at all, it's entirely possible that not transitioning at all or identifying in a different way would have been far worse. In my particular case, I'd argue it's quite probable that things would've been worse.

Flowing from that, I've learned to not place as much emphasis on endless possibilities. I could identify this way and be following this path for any number of reasons but I can only act on what feels right based on the information I have in the moment. I can't spend forever worrying and agonising about potential suffering created by an error of judgement while I actually suffer. I won't spend more years questioning my mental faculties and reasoning abilities while the vast majority of the world gets to take the validity of their identity for granted.

What does it matter if I'm delusional in this area? It's still what I need right now and have needed for a long time. It's still been integral to making sense of me and my future.

Anyhoo, I apologise for rambling and not really contributing anything. I'm just a tad tired and seem to have typed gibberish because of it. *hides*

When I first went to see my therapist I hoped and prayed he'd simply tell me I was nuts.. Nope, I'm trans. I didn't know as a kid, not specifically, but I did know something wasn't quite right. I worked it out at 12 and then promptly went in to denial for another 22 years.

I am 57 and just realized I was transgender last year.   So I fit well within your group.   When I first started talking with my gender therapist it was my hope that she would tell me that I was delusional rather than transgender.   Of course, that was not what happened.

I sometimes still wonder if I am creating all this in my mind.  I have done a lot of reading about transgender people and wonder if somehow my mind is creating things to match what I have read.   But I think this is just a result of repressing the whole transgender part of me for so long - any explanation so long as I don't have to admit to being transgender.

To me it comes down to who I am more comfortable being - the guy me or the gal me.   I find that when I am in the gal role that I am comfortable with who I am.  The guy me has never been content, always wanting to be elsewhere or doing something else.  Now I understand why.

It really is a question of identity.  Who are you, really, down deep?  Who do you feel most comfortable being?   By taking small steps in the new gender role you can determine if this is who you were meant to be.

I have had the same doubts, mainly imposed by my parents and my now ex-fiance. I'm 30 I want to transition. I came out to my self early in May of this year and allowed myself in June to experiment and come out to friends. But my parents believe I am doing this for attention, that I wasn't that effeminate when I was a child and therefore this is some weird delusion I picked up on by hanging out with trans people. But why did I seek them out? Why was I drawn to them? I was questioning. I've been questioning for more than a year or so. I was looking up all the details of transitioning while denying I was trans, that it was mere curiosity.

Am I delusional? Am I doing this for attention? The only way to know is to have those experiences. If its a phase, and I am thinking that it is less and less by the day, then its a phase I need to work through. 

Hi Next,

You're probably not delusional. Not everyone falls on the Gender Binary, often it more on a spectrum. I knew before puberty I should have been a girl, but I wasn't exactly the feminine type boy. I'm 59 now and spent too many years drinking and partying hiding the pain. I even became a born again Christian because they said God would make you new and whole. That didn't help. Over the past years the GD became almost intolerable. Last year I finally decided to see a therapist and accepted the fact that I was Trans. Now I've got a lot to untangle but at least I know what I am. How to fix is another story.

Point of the story, Step 1: Find a good gender therapist and sort it out.

Wishing you the Best!

Hugs,

Traci

Quote from: NextUsername on July 22, 2014, 01:06:40 PM
desired gender identity

Aren't you answering your own question here?

Why would you desire a different gender identity, and attempt to justify this desire in various ways, if you weren't trans?

I fall squarely into the "older when came out and never had a huge lifelong history of wanting to be a girl" category, and sometimes it's hard to believe that I'm as trans as those who knew ever since they were a couple of years old.

Don't fall into that trap.  I did, and it takes a long time to climb out of.  Stop comparing yourself to others, because if there's one thing that we have in common, it's that we often have nothing in common.  We're all heading in the same direction (kinda), it's not a race, and there's no prizes for being the youngest ever transgirl or having the quickest transition, nor being the "transiest" transgirl or having the longest litany of miserable childhood experiences to draw upon.

I'm not sure you need a history of thoughts, feeling and memories to be considered trans.  You just need to be genuine and honest with yourself right now.  You want to explore being trans?  Go for it.  Make an appointment with a therapist and start to unpack what you're going through.  He or she will, over time, help you figure it out.  You're doing nothing wrong, dangerous, or irreversible by just talking about what you're going through.  That's how you find out who you are today.  Sure, a long history can help you come to some conclusions about who you are, but don't let the lack of a history or a consistent lifelong set of experiences make you draw the wrong conclusions about yourself.

Remember, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.