Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 06:55:29 PM

Quote from: Andra on September 07, 2007, 06:46:47 PM
Many kids grew up KNOWING they were trans (even if they dont know the word), without any knowledge of other trans people existing (more so in the past, but it happens even now). 

Sorry but that is not correct.  Many kids grow up KNOWING THAT THEY ARE BOYS (MEN) OR GIRLS (WOMEN) not "TRANS".  Transsexualism is not a gender.  They identify as boys or girls because they relate to any of these two genders (sexes).  On another note, I could be interpret a certain treatment as being "African American"  that does not make one now does it?

Indeed trans isn't a gender.  But they grew up knowing they were a woman in a mans body or vice versa which is what it is to be trans, so that was part of their identity (note, not gender identity).  Being a person with a penis is as much a part of my identity as my gender is, even if I also identify as somebody who has a deep need to not have that thing attached to my body.

Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary.  Gender is psychological and a social construct.  If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"?  There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes.  My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?

Hi Yvonne,

   I want to thank you for an honest response.

   I've been thinking that gender may not be a social construction.  I think this because it would have been easy and painless for me to be male if that's what I am.  I would have had lots of examples and role models and have been guided into being the male I was supposed to be, I think.
   Just the thought of saying, "I am a man" makes me want to vomit.  The thought of having to live entirely male makes me want to kill myself.  However, I do not feel that a female body will help me either.  I do not want to live as female.  I can't identify with either of the generally accepted sex/genders.  I do not feel this way out of rebellion towards the status quo.  It is who I am.  Nobody could have taught me to feel or to be this way.

   I'm not certain 3rd gender is the proper term but I can live with it so I'll stick with it for this discussion. I think the reason I can say I am a third gender even though there is nothing in our modern society to support this is because the 2 main choices, male and female, do not fit or apply to me.  We do not have the language to describe ourselves very well due to historical circumstances. We have not been, and are not, recognized as a viable alternative gender to the more easily understood female and male.
   As strange as it may sound to you, we androgynes just may have to teach the entire population one person at a time that we exist.

   I hope this came out okay.  I'm kind of tired and afraid of rambling.

   I'd like to say that several people earlier in this thread did do a good job of expressing the androgyne condition.

Posted on: September 07, 2007, 07:06:15 PM

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Wow.  My last post stinks compared to the ones that come before it. (it could be this post if nobody posts before I do)

   I think some kids grow up knowing they are not either gender too.  Of course, they have no way of communicating this because there are no examples for them to point to or to relate to.

When we peak of gender I think it's important to note what manifestation of gender we're talking about.  I've always felt that while gender roles and expectations are socially constructed, that gender identity is innate and involuntary.

We keep running into the problems of trying to use inadequate language to discuss things we don't really have words for so it behooves us to do our best to be as accurate and descriptive as possible when using the words we do have.

meine zwei pfennig,
Emelye

Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary.  Gender is psychological and a social construct.  If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"?  There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes.  My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?

So if you realize that it existed in ancient life, why don't you think it exists today?  Modern society has squashed many behaviors, beliefs, etc of ancient tribes because we believe them to be uncivilized.  But it doesn't mean that people today don't still believe that way.

  its early I can't do too much brain acrobatics before coffee

The idea of someone saying an identity of someone else is not a valid one simply because it is not something they are familiar with is really kind of silly. Have you ever seen an identity? Thought not. Identity is a very personal thing, the very idea of someone sitting back and saying "I do not believe in your identity because it is not mine" makes no sense.

Sure I ID as a girl. I tried out ID'ing as a guy for a while when I was a lot younger considering the whole "guy body" thing I was dealing with, it was just wrong for me, made no sense, made me feel uncomfortable to the point of feeling nauseous and disgusting. So I tried girl, and girl worked. If that hadn't either, I would have had to find somewhere else to go. Third gender, fourth gender, all genders, no gender, invented my own gender, who cares? You find the identity that fits you, and you run with it. Every identity is valid, if you truly identify with it. You can no more tell me what someone elses identity truly is than you can tell me what I'm thinking right now. Which is probably for the best  .

Megan

rebis, plato said that once we were both genders and we then split into male and female. thereafter we spend eternity looking for our soul mate (yes, plato originated the idea of soul mate).
likewise in atlantis, there were two groups of people, The followers of the law of one and the followers of belial. they too believed that we were at one time both male and female but when we became human, not spirits, we divided into male and female.  amazing, isn't it?  i've thinking about this topic a lot.  i don't know why, but i'm not through with my answer yet.  give me a few more days, k? 

Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM

I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary.

All right. Thank you for explaining your views; this is realy getting interesting. Like I wrote, it's entirely reasonable to divide the gender variation into just two, male and female; but since I don't view it like that, it's a bit hard to understand.

So, in an attempt to get a better understanding of your view, how would you describe the gender of someone who was raised as a male, was distressed by that classification right from the start, but decided half-way into transition that being female was not any better? Is this person a man or a woman? What would be the criteria for your choice?

Quote

If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"?

How about 'because they do not feel comfortable in either of the binary roles'? Gender is not just social, it has a strong psychological component as well, and a biological basis which can be more or less relevant in different contexts.

Quote

There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes.

Does this mean that if we lived in one of the past societies which had a three-gender system, you would accept the existence of an intermediate gender?

  Nfr

I am not going to make any points in this discussion or search for reason for others beliefs, even though it may contradict myself existing, or denote that I am wrong about my personal understanding.

Rather just mention that I am a bit apathetic concerning the answers. I guess I am not out to change other's minds today.

Rather I respect your own choices of personal beliefs and hope its what works best for you. And desire to see everyone here reach a place of comfort, peace, fun, and truth in life.

To revise a quote from the great philosopher Britney Spears.
"I'm not a boy, not quite a woman."

Quote from: Katia on September 08, 2007, 07:40:36 AM
rebis, plato said that once we were both genders and we then split into male and female. thereafter we spend eternity looking for our soul mate (yes, plato originated the idea of soul mate).
likewise in atlantis, there were two groups of people, The followers of the law of one and the followers of belial. they too believed that we were at one time both male and female but when we became human, not spirits, we divided into male and female.  amazing, isn't it?  i've thinking about this topic a lot.  i don't know why, but i'm not through with my answer yet.  give me a few more days, k? 

Okay 

I would hate to live under water.

Posted on: September 08, 2007, 05:16:11 PM

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Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 08, 2007, 09:19:15 AM
I am not going to make any points in this discussion or search for reason for others beliefs, even though it may contradict myself existing, or denote that I am wrong about my personal understanding.

Rather just mention that I am a bit apathetic concerning the answers. I guess I am not out to change other's minds today.

Rather I respect your own choices of personal beliefs and hope its what works best for you. And desire to see everyone here reach a place of comfort, peace, fun, and truth in life.

To revise a quote from the great philosopher Britney Spears.
"I'm not a boy, not quite a woman."

I don't expect to change minds and I am okay with people not believing in me.  I'm just struggling to fill in the blanks and to get the most accurate picture possible.

"I'm not a singer, not a dancer." - is what Britney should (not)sing

I don;t know if Androgyne is a gender but I think its more of a umbrella term for somebody who just doesn't indentify as male or female or maybe for somebody who identifies between the 2 genders. I do identify as an androyne because sometimes I feel like one of the guys(I like sports, cars) and sometimes I don;t and as you get to know me you will learn that I communicate as a female would. I'm just very hard to get to know because I;m not totally one of the guys. What you see on the outside is partly the person(but not totally) that is on the inside. If I had to describe myself externally of how its like to present myself everyday it would be like this half of my body would and half of my body would be female: thats what its like too live as me everyday.

As far as scenice and androgny goes I did read once that some people are born with the androgony insensivity syndrome gene. I forgot how the androgony sensitivity gene forms but its formed before a person who has this gene is born.

That's androgen insensitivity, dear. Nothing to do with androgyny.

Quote from: Tay on September 04, 2007, 01:46:28 AM
A lot of people, in a recent poll on androgyne identity and whether or not it was accepted, responded that they did not see androgyne as a valid gender identity.  Some said it was a form of gender expression.  Some said other things.

No one really elaborated on why they believed it was invalid.

I come before you today with a plea.

I can take the fact that you don't believe in my identity, but please tell me why.  It really bothers me that no one has said why they think this way. 

Take pity on a person, would you?  At least give me some reasons.  I don't care what they are.  Just please tell me.

I can't say why someone would not give validity to androgyne unless they deny the validity of us all. After all, if a person can be born with physical characteristics of both sexes why not both genders? Or neither gender? We're all experiencing variations of the same theme.

My 2¢

Karen Lyn

"I don't believe in androgyne as a GI because I don't believe in "other variations" of gender besides the binary.  Gender is psychological and a social construct.  If ppl aren't exposed to anything outside the binary, how could they belong to a "third gender"?  There isn't anything in society that supports this except in ancient tribes.  My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?"


YOU ARE SOCIETY. You acknowledging this "Third Gender" really just makes it exist. We only separate ourselves from, "Society" because we disagree with the current trends. Pretty soon our ideas which were born in caffeinated deep thought on the internets will perhaps be mainstream. Ish....Mainsteamish.

Theres alot of interesting thought about us evolving more, and us being evolutions of evolution being ours or us BEING evolution that I was going to say, but it gets pretty confusing I must say.

Quote from: deviousxen on September 09, 2007, 03:26:52 AM
Theres alot of interesting thought about us evolving more, and us being evolutions of evolution being ours or us BEING evolution that I was going to say, but it gets pretty confusing I must say.

Just that sentence is pretty confusing!  I expect a full rewrite and resubmission by the end of monday. 

I really like your other more easily understandable thoughts, though. 

Don't worry. It confuses the crap outta me. I seem to understand it though...

I think many of the arguments going round stem from us having different understandings of what gender means.

For me my gender identity is simply what I feel I am inside. So for me a valid identity is simply any identity someone feels they are. For lack of a better word I call myself androgyne. Maybe androgyne does not describe a valid identity in itself because it includes a range of identities, but you have to say my internal identity is as valid as anyone else's wouldn't you?

I've never been a boy, no more than a lot of you MtFs out there. But I've never been a girl either. For you transsexuals out there, think of how you felt about your birth sex as it applied to you, now apply this feeling to your target sex at the same time and you will possibly get how I feel. Now what would that make me if androgyne is not a valid gender identity? Does this mean that I am genderless? Maybe so, but then I don't feel genderless. I feel that I am a definite something.

I think some of you are saying that to have a valid identity there needs to be a 'gendered' place for you in society. In some ways this might be a good way of looking at it. I can see myself supporting this idea because I definitely feel there is no place for me as an androgyne, a bit like I am lost in the gender sea around me. I can accept that my gender is not currently validated by society. Maybe my androgyne identity within the context of my society just fills the gap in the place of gender. But if I was living in another culture with a gendered place then I would then have a valid gender identity in the eyes of society..

My question to everyone is what makes a gender identity valid in your eyes?

You just summed up many things eloquently. That scenario is interesting that you brought up too.

I guess its valid if someone says that that is the way they feel. Unless we argue about semantics, which could ramble for hours.

I'm glad to see this topic got back on track because we haven't had any insults or attacks for a while.(Not that thats a reason for one). We're having additional people offer their insight into the debate and perhaps we shall continue moving foward and all grow from this experience. Nice job everyone.

M&M

"I also like Plutonium, its just fun to say"
"How's your plutonium today?"
"Good thank you"

Quote from: Yvonne on September 07, 2007, 05:27:38 PM
My question remains though, gender is a "social construct" thus, how could someone say they are "third gender" if there's nothing in our modern society that supports this belief?

Gender is not a social construct, per se. if it were, then it would be like me saying, "Yvonne, your personality is a social construct."
   then you would say, "No it's not."
   then i would say, "Then neither is your gender, because your gender is part of your personality."

you went on to add that if gender were not a social construct, then it would have to be biological "no luck there either." actually, gender is biological, in exactly the same degree that the mind is biological. the mind is an aspect of the brain, the personality is an aspect of the mind, and gender is an aspect of the personality.

to say that you're having an identity crisis based on gender can definitely be made worse by cultural opinions about how society thinks you should present yourself, but still, you know the problem is in fact personal, and has to be addressed by you personally, regardless of what other people think.

i also find it hard to understand that a person could have an identity crisis based on gender and desire to be neither male nor female. but my opinions do not establish that person's personality, and if i tell a person that their gender identity crisis is not valid unless they can "pick a gender," i'm certainly not going to be helping them -- any more than my mom has been helping me by telling me i'm "mentally ill" for being transsexual.

gotta put dis quote here to.

"I would like to be known as a person who is concerned about freedom and equality and justice and prosperity for all people".  Rosa Parks

a woman with agood heart.