Quote from: regina on September 10, 2007, 04:06:46 PM

Quote from: Kate on September 10, 2007, 03:35:41 PM

So do in-between people end up on a sliding scale of how they feel, gender-wise?

Or does simply being able to tell someone is TS ruin the whole thing?

Like what about someone who looks and acts like a genetic female at first blush, but within a few minutes the height, adam's apple, so-so voice, some of her mannerisms, etc. make it obvious the person is TS?

~Kate~

For me, it's very hard to quantify something that is so much done by instinct, by feeling. I've met transwomen who looked completely like genetic women, but there was something off, maybe the way they communicated, or their voice, I don't honestly know. Sometimes it's not the timbre of the voice, but the way the voice communicates or what the person says that sounds off kilter. But I do know that, afterwards, I had a hard time relating to them as a woman even if I still related to them as a fellow transitioner. Somebody, like myself, who was 'in process.'

I've met several people who, at first, really didn't look at all 'passable' or, in some way, intrinsically female, but as I spoke with them, I could totally understand why they were going in the direction they were. Completely. There was a core, like a raw material, that was present and needed to be molded. And once that happened, this person is really going to seem female to most people. It's not as simple as "well, if you do this and you don't do this then you're going not going to pass." Plus, you're dealing with someone as a whole, an entirety, their inside and outside. Rather than thinking about who totally passes as a 'genetic female' (whatever that looks like) and who doesn't, what I find I feel more often is, "I'm not totally sure I understand why this person needed to transition?" or "Yes, I totally understand why this person needed to transition. It makes complete sense. SHE needs to do it." Not very scientific, nor especially factual, but that's kind of how gendering is to me. A lot of intuition and feeling.

ciao,
Gina M.

That is so true. There are completely passable transmen with whom I must write a note in my head 'Objects strongly to being related to as a man', and some transmen who are clearly men even when unpassable.
The nature of the person can be strong enough to override looks.

Quote from: Kate on September 10, 2007, 04:08:17 PM
"You look so feminine," they tell me.
"But I won't want to look feminine, I need to look FEMALE... you know, like a normal girl," I complain.
~Kate~

Yes, Kate, yes.  Nobody gets that outside of the TS circle, or so it seems.  Even on another site where they are mostly cross dressers, they didn't get this fundamental fact.  It's just so hard when you feel you don't completely pass.  And unfortunately, it makes us more conscious of GGs all around us and more trans-aware...  In short, it messes with your mind.  I think some get more accepting and some go the other way.  They get less accepting.

Kristi

Something germane to this topic that no one has mentioned yet--

When you have supporters with you who consistently call you "she" and treat you as totally a woman-- that will favorably influence the perceptions of strangers you're meeting for the first time. Friends and allies who support my womanhood in public are so important to me. No woman is an island. We are social beings and our social functioning happens in concert with those around us. Use this to your benefit.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 10, 2007, 10:20:30 PM
Something germane to this topic that no one has mentioned yet--

When you have supporters with you who consistently call you "she" and treat you as totally a woman-- that will favorably influence the perceptions of strangers you're meeting for the first time. Friends and allies who support my womanhood in public are so important to me. No woman is an island. We are social beings and our social functioning happens in concert with those around us. Use this to your benefit.

Great, now I find there is no island of Hypatia.  I'm going to have to scratch that vacation spot off of my list.   Gee whiz.   

....The unpassables could be passables if they were able to access the right surgeons and technicians........

Access to the appropriate doctors is not everything imo.  Lots of dollars, euros, yens, francs are needed to obtain these doctors' services as it is mostly money out of your own pocket.  Horrid, innit?

Quote from: Berliegh on September 11, 2007, 04:51:21 AM
....The unpassables could be passables if they were able to access the right surgeons and technicians........

I'd like to create a world in which passing didn't matter... if someone wants to have SRS, FFS, etc, by all means do it for yourself, but we shouldn't have to do these things just to be able to have a safe place in society.

y2gendrrrrrrr

Quote from: Hypatia on September 10, 2007, 10:20:30 PM
Something germane to this topic that no one has mentioned yet--

When you have supporters with you who consistently call you "she" and treat you as totally a woman-- that will favorably influence the perceptions of strangers you're meeting for the first time. Friends and allies who support my womanhood in public are so important to me. No woman is an island. We are social beings and our social functioning happens in concert with those around us. Use this to your benefit.

Quote from: Berliegh on September 11, 2007, 04:51:21 AM
....The unpassables could be passables if they were able to access the right surgeons and technicians........

The first point is, imo, spot on. The thingy I found that wasn't mentioned by Hypatia is simply that being among those who gender you properly is also a major self-confidence boost in early stages.

I hate to say get rid of people, but if you are constantly around those who belittle your looks and confidence you are gonna have a rough row to hoe. But, at the same time you need some honest commentary as well. Like if your make-up looks silly, etc.

But the building of self-confidence is crucial for any of us, at least I found it so.

Thus, along with the easier to be gendered properly, it becomes easier for you to gender yourself properly as well.

It would be nice if surgery could do the entire job. That way if someone was just wealthy enough they could be gendered however they wish. *sigh*

Sorry, Berleigh. I cannot buy that one. I have known a couple of much wealthier than I women who used all the best surgeons and, quite honestly, I imagine will forever be seen by others as "men in dresses."

Like Nero, my take on them has been that there is too much of the "male life" that they didn't wish to toss on the trash heap. Or couldn't. They just do not ring female, regardless of looks.

Money and surgery cannot, imo, delete certain difficulties that the individual needs to work on herself. The opposite of that has been a few women I have met whose looks were not blended, but then after a bit, it became more than obvious that they were indeed, women.


Nichole
   

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that most of us are not perfect ALL of the time.  I read once that NATURE seemingly ordains that genetic women's voices RISE when they get excited but genetic men's voices LOWER in pitch.  Nature also, of course, lowers genetic men's voices during puberty.

It's been ten years since I transitioned (and seven since my GRS).  Though I have a very passable female voice most of the time I notice that sometimes, when I talk with a group, my learned-inclination to pitch my voice up and soften it can unfortunately go the opposite direction if I'm excited.  My best friend, if she's around, will give me a LOOK and I'll revert to my appropriately female pitch.  Over time, these mistakes occur less and less.  It takes awhile to have NURTURE conquer NATURE.

Because I'm not perfect, I tend to cut other TS's some slack if they're at least trying.

Teri Anne

yeah, dont assume, mine goes up too... i squeek and squeel and make guineapig noises
R

This isn't directly about a transwomen so i'll refer to the person as 'he'.

I see this guy around a lot. It took me ages to descide wether he was male or female. At first i thought he was female, although really tall and broadsholdered, because there is something so female there. But physcally i can see this person is male. It's like my eyes recognise that what i'm seeing should register in my brain as male, but he makes me feel like he is female. I have no idea why. I guess the little things like posture, voice, choice of colour and texure for clothes and hair make the difference. There is a very womanly aura around this very many build individual. So i don't think passing is about convincing the other person with looks, it's about making them 'feel' like they are talking to x gender.

Quote from: Berliegh on September 09, 2007, 05:56:39 AM

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

I disagree with some of your comments, I know a couple of T girls that would never be read in a million years even after close scrutiny. Their appearance, voice, mannerisms are perfect and no different to a Genetic female......they might be the exception to the rule but they certainly exist....

Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

Quote from: Veronica Secret on September 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM
Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

There's a girl in my support group whom I'd never suspect. Heck, I'd never suspect my own therapist was TS either.

Now that I KNOW they're TS, yes... I can find features here and there which reflect their heritage. But if I didn't know them, and just met them as strangers? Nope, I wouldn't know if I wasn't already looking for it. And they'd give me no reason to go looking.

~Kate~

Quote from: Veronica Secret on September 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM

Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

That is, indeed, the consensus among the long-timers and shorter timers I have met.

To tell the truth, that seems a shame. My guess is that it comes from self-obsession on our own looks, etc.

I know we do so, especially in the early days, but at some point I believe that if I am gonna get along with my life that my obsession with whom I view in the mirror, and with whom I am interacting, even vaguely, in public should really stop if I am to find any sort of satisfaction in my own skin.

I'll be honest. I want to hang out and interact with basically sane and somewhat adjusted people. I am not interested in tying myself in any way to someone who is constantly obsessing about whether or not she or he blends well.

I try not to notice. I would rather interact with those I have commonalities with, who are pretty solidly self-aware and who are not constantly concerned about what strangers see or think.

From experiences I have had, becoming friendly with, knowing, people who obsess about how they look, find it uncomfortable to be themselves and are constantly trying to read their own comfort in the eyes of everyone around them: they do not make good friends and generally will find some way to poison you or anyone else they feel does better or even worse than they do.

That sort of insecurity is, imo, toxic to interact with, and the person's who are in that space should probably be avoided IRL at all costs.

my $0.02

Nichole

Quote from: Veronica Secret on September 14, 2007, 12:49:37 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on September 09, 2007, 05:56:39 AM

Quote from: Fer on September 08, 2007, 09:47:00 PM
A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

I disagree with some of your comments, I know a couple of T girls that would never be read in a million years even after close scrutiny. Their appearance, voice, mannerisms are perfect and no different to a Genetic female......they might be the exception to the rule but they certainly exist....

Although undubtedly there are  exceptions ---so far   those excpetions exist only on the internet in my  experience- --- that p rove the rule, the conse nsus is among most  longtime TSs is that we can  read each other in a heartbeat.

i think thats bull...  you may just have a larger exposure and predefined ideas of transexuals. please have a look at some young trans girls sometime, and read them all, because trust me, knowing thier ts, and being able to tell are two different things. hrt can perform magic, and your self inflated ->-bleeped-<-dar ego can be wrong.
R

As Rachael pointed out, once you know someone's TS, they look TS to you. And you see 'masculine' or 'imperfect' features even when everything about them is well within the female range.
Once you know, you automatically see 'clues' (well, her forehead is a little big, she doesn't exactly have an hour glass figure, etc).
If we were told a natal female had a trans past, we'd see 'male' features on her too.
Before talking with other transpeople, I honestly had no idea of the differences between a male and female skull. I'd never even taken note of the fact that men had brow ridges, or a longer space between the nose and lips.
My mother browses this site, aware that we have mtf, ftm and SOs on here. She's curious who's mtf, ftm, or SO and often pegs transwomen here that I personally didn't think passed that well as SOs or ftms.

even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

I'm not sure if you are only joking, but I think it is true to some extent.  I notice masculine things on GGs now that I would never have paid any attention to.  After a while it becomes an obsession and begins to mess with your mind.

Kristi

man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated.  what we think aint important. its what they are.  sorry dont wanna look mad but I read stuff like dis all da time now.  we gotta stay together.  there's to much sh#t goin on alredy.  we dont wanna bring it here to.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 09:37:54 PM
even born genetic women are starting to appear unpassable to me.

For many years since becoming aware of my own gender variance, I notice a much wider range of gender and expression in other people. It's like my eyes are now open to all the possibilities and I can really see the full continuum. I love it, everyone passes as exactly who they are

Quote from: Chris on September 16, 2007, 03:27:57 AM
man. why people worry bout sh#t like dis.  women are women.  dudes are dudes. it dont matter if they pass. not pass. look femine. dont look femine.  have a d#ck or dont got one, got tits or dont.  we gotta treat people like they wanna be treated. 

Right on Chris!

Zythyra