Quote from: Susan522 on July 31, 2014, 10:50:53 PM
"I might not be making sense , but I try"

I think that you are making sense.  You have posed a valid question which has engendered many informative responses.  I believe that  3rd gender would work well for many in the trans* community, giving them the equal rights and protections already afforded the cis-population.

It seems unreasonable to create the distinction between cis and trans*, and then insist that the distinction does not exist.

seems to be a quite logical statement

Quote from: Susan522 on July 31, 2014, 10:50:53 PM

It seems unreasonable to create the distinction between cis and trans*, and then insist that the distinction does not exist.

That is a difference that wasn't 'created', it happened by default, and I for one do not want attention brought to it.

I claim neither, I just am.

Quote from: LordKAT on August 01, 2014, 05:16:28 AM

That is a difference that wasn't 'created', it happened by default, and I for one do not want attention brought to it.

I claim neither, I just am.

to be honest I don't know what I am at this moment. I lived my life being viewed and talked to as a male, but my insides were the square peg being hammered into the round hole. Now I've found the release of HRT , but I still have a massive history dragging behind me. Honestly , I am, but I don't know what the hell that is anymore.

You are the one and only uniquely you. That is enough.

No matter what anyone might wish or want 40 years of experience has shown me that anyone who doesn't fit in the categories of "normal male" and "normal female" physically or psychologically will always be considered 'a third sex' by the cis population. It might just be easier if we had a "both/neither" category for those who do not meet the traditional definition of male or female, either physically (Intersex) or psychologically.

Quote from: LordKAT on August 01, 2014, 06:41:48 AM
You are the one and only uniquely you. That is enough.

well, I definitely can understand that

Quote from: Northern Jane on August 01, 2014, 06:43:27 AM
No matter what anyone might wish or want 40 years of experience has shown me that anyone who doesn't fit in the categories of "normal male" and "normal female" physically or psychologically will always be considered 'a third sex' by the cis population. It might just be easier if we had a "both/neither" category for those who do not meet the traditional definition of male or female, either physically (Intersex) or psychologically.

Like the Beatles Polythene Pam " so good looking she looks like a man"

This is a very interesting thread for me because I've been giving a lot of thought to this question lately.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I can state my views coherently here because I'm not sure that my views actually make sense.  But here goes anyway.

I think it's a mistake in a way for us transpeople, when we're talking to the general (cisgender) public, to say, "I'm a woman," or "I'm a man", as the case may be.  The reason is that a cisgender person's concepts of "woman" and "man" are "cisgender woman" and "cisgender man".  They can't help but think that way because those concepts are formed by their own experience, which is cisgender.

Therefore, when someone like Chelsea Manning says, "I'm a woman," they think that's crazy because everybody in the world knows what sort of genitalia Manning has.  Many cispeople define a woman as having female genitalia, full stop.  If you haven't got female genitalia, you're not a woman.  In their minds, it's as simple as that.  That's why they see us as delusional: they think that transpeople are men who believe they're women or women who believe they're men.

They fail to make the distinction between sex and gender because those two things are inextricably linked in their minds.  Because their sex and gender match, they can't see that they're actually two different things.

Therefore, in explaining ->-bleeped-<- to cisgender people, I think we need to emphasize that we are in fact different from them.  Having male genitalia doesn't make you a man like all others—i.e., a cisgender man.  It's your psychology, your gender, that makes you different from cisgender men.  That is, I feel that in explaining ->-bleeped-<- to cispeople, we need to emphasize that we're a different category of people altogether.

But this leaves us in a predicament.  Transwomen want to be accepted as women and transmen want to be accepted as men, and if we insist that we're a different category, then we can't really claim to be women and men like all others.  It is a psychological imperative for lots of us (not all of us) to be accepted as women and men like all others.  And the point that some people are making on this thread, the notion that it is dangerous for us to accept a different label from cispeople, I think is valid.  If we're seen as "other", then it's quite likely we'll be treated as "other".

So I don't really know how to resolve this dilemma.  And I also believe that no matter what we want, we are always going to be perceived as different.  The trans experience is different from the cis experience.  We have to take a different road than cispeople towards achieving womanhood or manhood, and I believe that society will always see that difference.

But I think in a way it won't necessarily prevent us from being accepted as women and men.  Perhaps we'll be seen as subsets of women and men, and perhaps that's the best we'll ever be able to achieve.  I really don't know.

But I also think that in a way this whole discussion we're having may be academic.  Cispeople fall into two groups—those who won't hassle us and those who will.  No matter how we present ourselves to trans-haters, they're not going to accept us because they hate us so much.  And I don't believe that those who will accept us really care much about academic discussions about what ->-bleeped-<- is.  They don't really care what we are.  They're willing to accept us simply because they want to go about their own business and their own lives with as little worry as possible.

Another reason I think this discussion may be academic is that we have no control over what people think.  We can take a certain approach to ->-bleeped-<-, but we can't force anybody to see us as we wish to be seen.  They'll either accept us or they won't, and if they do, perhaps it's not terribly important to us what they think.  If their attitude is, "OK, you can be a woman", even if they don't really see us that way in their hearts, then I think we may have to accept that as the best we can get.

I think your totally right the way human beings and society that comprises our social reality form the framework of our daily existence and allow us to interact with each other will continually  present difficulties in the form of people who will not accept us for whatever reason. Bullying and gangs have been around for along time and society is unable to solve these problems. If everyone could be invisible there would be no problem , but that sadly is not the reality. I wish I had the answers, but I don't . I deal with my personal need to transition and hope for the best. The only way since we all can't be invisible is for society to evolve some how. I know through out grade school I was bullied for being a cry baby. How do you change society so no one fears . How do you educate all humans to accept diversity. even if a third gender classification was realistic their would still be the haters. a lot of transgender  have been murdered so far this summer and we're only starting august. society just needs to advance to a better plane.  ->-bleeped-<- is part of our human condition and it not going away. It always going to be a problem as long as we're viewed as different, so how do we get that kind of change. I haven't the slightest idea.

I don't like the idea of a 3rd gender.  I think the only thing it would make it easier to do, is to segregate and differentiate us from what the world would consider normal people.  I think instead of the 3rd gender being truly recognized as a gender, it would have the inadvertent effect of labeling us as a 'freak' and create more problems and discrimination.  It would be easier - for people who already discriminate against us and don't recognize us our preferred gender.  It would effectively be a legalized 'it' pronoun for them to refer to us.  Since most of us seek to fit in, as opposed to standing out, I don't feel that it's beneficial to us. 

Quote from: KatelynRain on August 01, 2014, 04:17:45 PM
I don't like the idea of a 3rd gender.  I think the only thing it would make it easier to do, is to segregate and differentiate us from what the world would consider normal people.  I think instead of the 3rd gender being truly recognized as a gender, it would have the inadvertent effect of labeling us as a 'freak' and create more problems and discrimination.  It would be easier - for people who already discriminate against us and don't recognize us our preferred gender.  It would effectively be a legalized 'it' pronoun for them to refer to us.  Since most of us seek to fit in, as opposed to standing out, I don't feel that it's beneficial to us.

yea , your probably right

Nope not at all. Would make more of a mess of things that are already a mess.

WPATH SOC works if you are GD.

Need to show society that we are humans. Same as they are. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote from: Foxglove on August 01, 2014, 03:07:05 PMPerhaps we'll be seen as subsets of women and men, and perhaps that's the best we'll ever be able to achieve.  I really don't know.

I apologise if I'm misunderstanding this but I think what you've outlined here is what I'd prefer. Specifically, I'd like to see the notion that there's a homogeneous set of people that are 'women' and a homogeneous set that are 'men' deconstructed. In reality, the unique nature of each person's life and body means they have a definition of gender that is also utterly unique to them. Flowing from that, I'd prefer it if 'transgender' were eventually simply seen as a modifier to gender experience in the same way that disability, race, class etc are considerable modifiers to how people experience their gender in society too.

Quote from: Northern Jane on August 01, 2014, 06:43:27 AM
No matter what anyone might wish or want 40 years of experience has shown me that anyone who doesn't fit in the categories of "normal male" and "normal female" physically or psychologically will always be considered 'a third sex' by the cis population. It might just be easier if we had a "both/neither" category for those who do not meet the traditional definition of male or female, either physically (Intersex) or psychologically.

I agree

Quote from: Foxglove on August 01, 2014, 03:07:05 PM
Perhaps we'll be seen as subsets of women and men, and perhaps that's the best we'll ever be able to achieve. 

Quote from: Lonicera on August 01, 2014, 05:13:55 PM
I apologise if I'm misunderstanding this but I think what you've outlined here is what I'd prefer. Specifically, I'd like to see the notion that there's a homogeneous set of people that are 'women' and a homogeneous set that are 'men' deconstructed. In reality, the unique nature of each person's life and body means they have a definition of gender that is also utterly unique to them. Flowing from that, I'd prefer it if 'transgender' were eventually simply seen as a modifier to gender experience in the same way that disability, race, class etc are considerable modifiers to how people experience their gender in society too.

I wouldn't say that you're misunderstanding me because exactly what I mean when I say "subsets of women and men" I don't really know.  If that's the way people eventually came to view us, I can't say what that would mean exactly.  But I could pretty much go along with the views you're expressing here.

We're involved in a theoretical discussion here, and there's nothing wrong with that because it's a way of looking before you leap.  It's always wise to do that.  But look at the practical side of the question.

Two years ago I was still in the closet but absolutely desperate to get out.  I thought I was going to burst.  My problem was that I live in a very small town.  If I was going to get out, then I would be out, and there would be no chance of going back in.  I'd be out for good.  And I wasn't sure at all how people would react to me.  I was considering the real possibility that I might have to move to another town.

But instead of just suddenly appearing in public in my new identity, I got the idea of letting people know in advance what I was planning to do.  This would allow me to gauge their reaction and change my plans accordingly if need be.  But what was I to tell them?

There was no way I was going to say, "I'm a woman."  Cispeople's notion of a woman is a cisgender woman, and the people of this town have known me for years and so they knew full well that I'm not one of those.  Neither was I going to say, "I'm a transgender woman."  Nobody would understand that, and I'd have to go into some long-winded explanation that nobody would want to listen to.

So what I told people was, "I'm transgender and I'm going to be presenting as a woman."  This is what I told to the people I commonly deal with and who know me well—librarians, post office clerks, shop owners, etc.—and to my utter astonishment, everyone without exception that I spoke to was perfectly accepting and supportive.

Now I didn't particularly like saying that.  It doesn't express what I truly am.  It comes perilously close to saying, "I'm a man in a dress."  Yet people could accept it, and I got out and I've had very few negative experiences in this town over the last two years.  I got acceptance, which is what I wanted.

Now how exactly do the people of this town see me?  I don't know.  They may well think of me as "that fella who likes to dress like a lady".  I'd say they certainly see me as "different".  But they don't treat me badly.

And who's to say that their view of me won't evolve as time goes on?  I see myself as a female soul born into a male body.  Perhaps as time goes on, people might come to see me in something like that way.  "You're really a girl at heart."  There are plenty of transpeople who've reported people saying things like that to them.

In other words, I don't think we have any real control over how people see us.  But as more and more of us get out and start living our lives, it's quite possible that society's view of us will evolve.  I strongly suspect that we're always going to be seen as "different".  But it's not a foregone conclusion that we'll continue to be mistreated for that reason.

After all, black and white people, e.g., see each other as different, but we don't necessarily have to mistreat each other for that reason.  We can treat each other with respect.  There are plenty of trans-haters around these days, but I don't think they're the majority.  I think most people will eventually accept us as people and citizens, regardless of their view of ->-bleeped-<- itself.

I think a big part of the solution is when the majority of the trans population are open to t society to be seen as just normal people living their lives, the doctor , the carpenter , the train engineer , etc. I can't express this enough as to how surprise I was when I first found Susan's, the diversity of the trans population is realy evident on Susan's.

Quote from: mind is quiet now on August 01, 2014, 04:41:36 PM
Nope not at all. Would make more of a mess of things that are already a mess.

WPATH SOC works if you are GD.

Need to show society that we are humans. Same as they are. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree with your post.  While this has been an interesting discussion I am not interested in another box, I am human and that is the only box I need.  Boxes have already caused far too much damage.

Aisla

" I strongly suspect that we're always going to be seen as "different".  But it's not a foregone conclusion that we'll continue to be mistreated for that reason.


I think that for many 'different' might be part of their reality.  However, I strongly agree that this does not necessarily imply a negative reaction or mistreatment.  I think that perhaps this might highlight the benefits of blending in and striving to fit in.  Obviously this is easier for the young, but even they might give some serious thought to how and where they implement their method of transition.  Sometimes "coming out" to everyone is not the wisest way to roll.