Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on August 06, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
It would which is one of the reasons I wouldn't dream of apologising or using that many words. If someone calls me 'sir' (like the butcher did last month) I correct them by saying "it's madam". Why on Earth would I be grovelling acceptance from someone who is relying on my custom?

I am really sorry that they got to you lovely but they have the problem, not you.

I think her point is that these people don't misgender her out of malice, but because they react to what they see, and that this is understandably very discouraging.  It's demoralising after 14 years to deal with it day to day. Correcting them doesn't change that it happens, it just means those you correct won't use the wrong pronoun with you. Unaddressed, it will happen again and the cycle continues. It drags one down.

I think we all wonder if we are deluding ourselves if we seem to pass day to day, often because we still see enough of our old selves in the mirror to sow doubt. Every "sir" from any source shakes our confidence. It also slaps us with the past and who we are not nor how we wish to be seen.

I would only ask, is there a way to first figure out what it is that still lingers to undermine your presentation, and whether there are steps you can take to fix them?

Quote from: Sabine on August 06, 2014, 04:40:48 PM
I think her point is that these people don't misgender her out of malice, but because they react to what they see, and that this is understandably very discouraging.  It's demoralising after 14 years to deal with it day to day. Correcting them doesn't change that it happens, it just means those you correct won't use the wrong pronoun with you. Unaddressed, it will happen again and the cycle continues. It drags one down.

I think we all wonder if we are deluding ourselves if we seem to pass day to day, often because we still see enough of our old selves in the mirror to sow doubt. Every "sir" from any source shakes our confidence. It also slaps us with the past and who we are not nor how we wish to be seen.

I would only ask, is there a way to first figure out what it is that still lingers to undermine your presentation, and whether there are steps you can take to fix them?

Your spot on Sabine with your comments and understand this thread well. I've never been sir'd yet but it's the way I was referred to as him in conversation at the garage or the way they look at you, you know it's not working. Even in shops you see people being called madam or sir but with me it's neither, I'm a non entity, a non gender.

What about voice? No matter how you look if you sound masculine then people read you as masculine.  Based on your picture it is impossible to misgender you so therefore it must be something we cannot see.

Judging from your photo you look very feminized.    Perhaps you could wear some more color on your face to help you pass even more? 

Quote from: aaggat on August 06, 2014, 06:13:30 PM
What about voice? No matter how you look if you sound masculine then people read you as masculine.  Based on your picture it is impossible to misgender you so therefore it must be something we cannot see.

Please read the rest of thread before you comment. I'll say it again to save you scrolling up. My voice sounds female, my voice didn't break, I have never had a guys voice. so this isn't related to voice.

Quote from: Kyra553 on August 06, 2014, 06:54:30 PM
Judging from your photo you look very feminized.    Perhaps you could wear some more color on your face to help you pass even more? 

Thanks for your comment. I'm not wearing any make up in my pic. I haven't noticed any feminization as I haven't changed much over the years. I wish I did have some feminization. I think your face is lovely Kyra, you have a nice round face which always looks feminine. But I'm probably a lot older than you are?

At the risk of jumping into a thread with a post I'll regret, here's my few cents:

I'm 100% with you, Naturally Blonde, on the idea that trans girls are often not as passable as they think they are.  It's not hard to pick us out if one looks carefully enough.  If we enter the transition process expecting to come out the other side as the functional equivalent of cis girls, many of us are in for a nasty surprise.  And the world is full of morons who feel it's their right to insult us because of who we are.

How do we deal with it?  We adjust our bodies as best we can, but we also need to adjust our attitudes and expectations.  We deal with our shortcomings by fixing what can be fixed and learning to live with what can't.  We surround ourselves with friends and family who accept us for who we are, and we learn to ignore those members of society who are stupid/rude/insensitive and who call us out when they see us.

In other words, we learn to love ourselves as successful trans girls rather than failed cis girls.  Life's too short to hate yourself for not being a perfectly passable woman, but it's plenty long enough to be a pretty, interesting, loveable and happy trans girl.

Look, it sounds like you've had a ->-bleeped-<-ty day.  The guy in the garage sounds like a dick, and for the life of me I can't fathom why you're not taking your car elsewhere for service - that's your business though.

After working at it for fourteen years, you've tried everything.  Hormones, the voice, appearance, mannerisms, the whole lot.  There's probably nothing anyone here can suggest that will make you more female in terms of your external characteristics.  And if you've gotten stuck at a point, physically, where you're not 100% passable, welcome to the club!

All of this leads me to believe that the problem isn't what you look like, but your attitude.  I truly don't mean that in an insulting way.  From your posts in this thread, you sound like you're making the mistake of trying to reach a standard that you'll never reach, not in a million years.  Few of us will.  So instead of becoming a grumpy, bitter, disappointed person who quits because she'll never be perfect, figure out a way to be happy with the girl you've ended up as.  Therapy?  Anti-depressants?  A bottle of vodka for a cocktail at the end of each day?  New friends?  Whatever it takes to stop beating yourself up over you perceived lack of success, do it.

Yeah, life sucks that we weren't born girls.  We can either have a lifelong hissy fit about how unfair it all is and how we want to quit, or we can do our best with what we have available, knowing that we'll never be perfect, and live life as happily as we can.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I'll throw it out there anyway. 

You know I think like this at times also. I wonder is it me that I'm fooling!! Even though I was being misgendered 1 1/2 years before even thinking of going FT, and being intimate with a few men that had no idea....and then all the people that knew me in the past but have no clue that I am anything other than a woman.....I still feel at times is everyone just being too nice.

Its really not too difficult for a trans to spot another trans....we know what were looking for. But the biggest thing is if you know that someone is trans, it then narrows your vision....your now looking for things that look manly. I am one that does that quite often when I see another person I feel is trans.....its not something I do intentionally, its just nature.

Now in saying that, I have a story to tell you. First a little background. Ten years ago a good 4 years before I started my transition my wife (ex now) worked with a trans girl, it was quite a shock to me!! I didn't say or think too much of it, even though my wife did know I was cross dressing at the time. Its not that I intentionally didn't make a fuss,...I just didn't care much. I didn't rush down to see her or anything like that. I was amazed that even though my wife did not like working with her, it had nothing to do with her being trans and not one time did she call her he....not even in anger. Well one day I happened to be at her work, I seen the trans girl...I knew right away it was her, even though my wife didn't describe her much. Its not that she looked manly, its just she looked a little out of place. Yes she did have bigger shoulders and some tattoos, that also made her look a little manly.

Well fast forward 10 years. I'm driving home from work and everyday I see this lady at a tent on the corner selling corn and other produce. I must of seen her 10-15 times, I once commented to myself that.....geez, she's always wearing a dress, no matter what the weather. Well one day I stopped for corn, I spoke with her a bit and ended up buying some corn. It was only in the last 2 minutes that I noticed she was the trans girl that worked with my wife!! All that time I never though anything different....no, she is not the most attractive, nor is she unattractive, her voice wasn't very feminine, nor was it manly, she did wear too much lip stick....but nothing I have not seen before....and she still had her tattoos and her arms and shoulders were quite big. But with all of my special trans radar and noticing a couple of those features that weren't the most feminine, I still did not know until I seen the tattoo and then remembered her face. This is coming from someone that may be a bit more discriminating than many others on here.

I just find it strange that after 14 years people would be misgendering you! I have not been misgendered once since starting my transition.....early on I was shocked....and even now at times I still wonder.....but then I look at myself and think....do I really look like a man, and even when my voice is bad in the morning its still not a mans voice!

I'm also from an area that is not very familiar with the tg community or accepting. This could go both ways, in some places you may be more accepted but also may be more easily recognized. Here I believe I would easily be recognized and definitely not accepted by all, though the few people who do know seem to be very accepting, but I am sure they don't quite see me as the woman most other people do....mostly because they now know, not necessarily because their not accepting.

Quote from: Just Shelly on August 06, 2014, 10:31:33 PM

I just find it strange that after 14 years people would be misgendering you! I have not been misgendered once since starting my transition.....early on I was shocked....and even now at times I still wonder.....but then I look at myself and think....do I really look like a man, and even when my voice is bad in the morning its still not a man's voice!

It is difficult after 14 years and earlier on in my transition and even before I ever started my transition I was usually perceived as female.  So, yes I've got worse in the last year or so. Why? I'm not completely sure?

Quote from: Brenda E on August 06, 2014, 09:01:15 PM

After working at it for fourteen years, you've tried everything.  Hormones, the voice, appearance, mannerisms, the whole lot. 

I have never had to work on my voice and it's probably my best feature. The problems are more physical, lower body, upper body ratio. Not my face, not my voice. Over the years the hormones have targeted my belly area leaving the legs and butt skinny. This gives a male type fat distribution appearance, especially in the summer when you can't cover up as much. I need to quit hormones for a while in order to get rid of the wrong fat distribution that's happening from them. Also I need to work out and try and erase the damage the hormones have done. It's crazy when you gut is a lot bigger than your boobs and your legs are like sticks and the rest of your body is thin.

Quote from: Brenda E on August 06, 2014, 09:01:15 PM

Look, it sounds like you've had a ->-bleeped-<-ty day.  The guy in the garage sounds like a dick, and for the life of me I can't fathom why you're not taking your car elsewhere for service - that's your business though.

No, he's not a dick, he only sees what he sees, it could be a genuine mistake. Some guys do have feminine long hair and carry little bags these days, especially musicians, artists etc. I've seen very feminine looking guys attending rock concerts that look more feminine than I do. I don't want to take my car elsewhere where the same thing will probably happen again. I'm at fault not anyone else and unlike many Transsexual women I can understand how we are seen from the other side side of the fence. Some transsexual women are happy to complain and bury their head in the sand, then the situation arises again, they complain again and so on.

If you ask me, I think it is a little crazy to want to completely de-transition just because you can't completely pass. You picture looks extremely feminine, and your body issues may actually be something you could do something about if you still wanted to. You could probably dramatically improve the fat distribution problem by looking into cosmetic fat transfer. A masculine rib cage can also be reduced by corset training, if you're willing to put the time and effort into it. But it does kind of sound like you have already made up your mind, so I guess that's your decision. I mean, if you're 14 years into things and there is still a part of you that wants to go back to being male, I don't think it's wrong for you to want to do it. But it does surprise me that it would have taken you a full 14 years to realize that was the case. Are you sure there isn't something else going on here?

Quote from: Miyuki on August 07, 2014, 04:39:35 AM
If you ask me, I think it is a little crazy to want to completely de-transition just because you can't completely pass. You picture looks extremely feminine, and your body issues may actually be something you could do something about if you still wanted to. You could probably dramatically improve the fat distribution problem by looking into cosmetic fat transfer. A masculine rib cage can also be reduced by corset training, if you're willing to put the time and effort into it. But it does kind of sound like you have already made up your mind, so I guess that's your decision. I mean, if you're 14 years into things and there is still a part of you that wants to go back to being male, I don't think it's wrong for you to want to do it. But it does surprise me that it would have taken you a full 14 years to realize that was the case. Are you sure there isn't something else going on here?

You could go through my photo's from the last 25 years and through the years I look pretty much the same as I do now. So my suggestion of de-transition wouldn't be what you think. I have never seen my self as male so I wouldn't be going back to something that I wasn't in the first place. I've never been married to a woman, I've never been to a barbers. That isn't and never has been me. By quitting I meant quitting hormones and trying to work out to get a better shaped body. The hormones are giving me a male type body fat which I detest.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on August 07, 2014, 04:59:50 AM
You could go through my photo's from the last 25 years and through the years I look pretty much the same as I do now. So my suggestion of de-transition wouldn't be what you think. I have never seen my self as male so I wouldn't be going back to something that I wasn't in the first place. I've never been married to a woman, I've never been to a barbers. That isn't and never has been me. By quitting I meant quitting hormones and trying to work out to get a better shaped body. The hormones are giving me a male type body fat which I detest.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood. In that case, my suggestion of doing fat transfer still applies. Going off HRT and working out is only going to make your upper body look bigger, unless you focused entirely on your legs. And it's not like it's impossible to burn fat on hormones. If you go on an intense cardio regimen, and limit your calorie intake, you should be able to get rid of the belly fat at least. But it would also probably make your breasts/butt/legs smaller too, which is why I think fat transfer is a better solution.

Quote from: Miyuki on August 07, 2014, 05:08:33 AM
Oh, I guess I misunderstood. In that case, my suggestion of doing fat transfer still applies. Going off HRT and working out is only going to make your upper body look bigger, unless you focused entirely on your legs. And it's not like it's impossible to burn fat on hormones. If you go on an intense cardio regimen, and limit your calorie intake, you should be able to get rid of the belly fat at least. But it would also probably make your breasts/butt/legs smaller too, which is why I think fat transfer is a better solution.

Nope! before hormones my upper body was a lot smaller. The ratio was more balanced pre-hormones with upper body and lower body being the same clothing size. Since hormones the upper body has got bigger and the ratio is worse. My upper body now is two sizes bigger than my lower body.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on August 07, 2014, 05:13:36 AM
Nope! before hormones my upper body was a lot smaller. The ratio was more balanced pre-hormones with upper body and lower body being the same clothing size. Since hormones the upper body has got bigger.

Wah, really? I didn't think that was even possible. Are you sure your levels are okay, because that does not seem like something that should happen normally. Are you exercising your upper body a lot, or did it just happen on it's own?

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on August 07, 2014, 04:21:20 AM
I'm at fault not anyone else and unlike many Transsexual women I can understand how we are seen from the other side side of the fence.

Many of us do just fine thank you. I know some who totally fail to pass but are happy in themselves and do not much care what others think. I know others who passed well enough but did not believe that and outed themselves without meaning to because they thought that "everyone must know already" and they did not. There are examples here on this forum of people who had similar experiences.

For myself, I am older than you and I have not been misgendered in years and the sport I am involved in calls for close proximity to both men and women many of whom I often do not know. I am never misgendered. I share female bunk spaces, locker rooms and toilets all without question.

All we can see of you here is a picture. We cannot hear your voice or see you move or how you stand or a hundred other little details that might give you away. Maybe you pass better than you think but you do not believe that you pass - people can pick up on a lack of confidence and it triggers them to examine more closely.

If you do not believe in yourself then you will never find a solution that will make you happy. Knowing yourself is the key.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on August 07, 2014, 04:21:20 AM
Some transsexual women are happy to complain and bury their head in the sand, then the situation arises again, they complain again and so on.

Pot ... kettle...

This thread is little more than a series of complaints from you. Instead of complaining to the mechanic you complain about the mechanic elsewhere (here) or about the solutions other posters have offered.

Gender Dysphoria happens inside the head and the cure for it has to happen in there as  well. Physical transition means nothing without self-acceptance. Maybe your solution lies not in the outwardly visible but rather internally.

Quote from: aaggat on August 07, 2014, 05:21:41 AM
All we can see of you here is a picture. We cannot hear your voice or see you move or how you stand or a hundred other little details that might give you away. Maybe you pass better than you think but you do not believe that you pass - people can pick up on a lack of confidence and it triggers them to examine more closely.

Gender Dysphoria happens inside the head and the cure for it has to happen in there as  well. Physical transition means nothing without self-acceptance. Maybe your solution lies not in the outwardly visible but rather internally.

I'll give you my number you can hear my voice for yourself. I always seem to pass on the phone hon. Gender Dysphoria happens inside the head? yes it does and you try to align the physical appearance to the brain. Nope! the problem is definitely physical.

Quote from: aaggat on August 07, 2014, 05:21:41 AM
For myself, I am older than you and I have not been misgendered in years and the sport I am involved in calls for close proximity to both men and women many of whom I often do not know. I am never misgendered. I share female bunk spaces, locker rooms and toilets all without question.

Are you sure you are older than me? I'm glad for you that you don't get misgendered, it must be a very nice feeling. Most of the time I pass but I still get the odd episode where I don't. Strangely I always pass in the ladies loo. So with me it's a fine line.

Quote from: Miyuki on August 07, 2014, 05:18:12 AM
Wah, really? I didn't think that was even possible. Are you sure your levels are okay, because that does not seem like something that should happen normally. Are you exercising your upper body a lot, or did it just happen on it's own?

I don't know why it's happening? but it pisses me off. I used to be (U.K size) 14 upper body and size 14 lower body pre-hormones, a good balanced ratio. Since being on hormones the lower body has dropped to size 12 and upper body increased to size 16 to 18.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on August 07, 2014, 05:22:17 AM
I don't know why it's happening? but it pisses me off. I used to be (U.K size) 14 upper body and size 14 lower body pre-hormones, a good balanced ratio. Since being on hormones the lower body has dropped to size 12 and upper body increased to size 16 to 18.

Is it just muscle, or do you think there have been actual bone structure changes? Testosterone can continue to masculenize your bone structure even after puberty, so if your levels weren't under control, that could explain it. I'm really skeptical that estrogen could actually increase upper body mass, but hormones do seem to affect everyone differently, so I guess it's possible. In theory at least. But I doubt going off hormones would make things better at this point, if the changes were the result of bone structure development.

Quote from: Miyuki on August 07, 2014, 05:30:21 AM
Is it just muscle, or do you think there have been actual bone structure changes? Testosterone can continue to masculenize your bone structure even after puberty, so if your levels weren't under control, that could explain it. I'm really skeptical that estrogen could actually increase upper body mass, but hormones do seem to affect everyone differently, so I guess it's possible. In theory at least. But I doubt going off hormones would make things better at this point, if the changes were the result of bone structure development.

No, pre-hormones I had very low testosterone levels and even now they are around the 0.4 mark. As male I had no sperm count. My psychiatrist says they are always very low, even for a female. I don't think any bone mass has changed this is just fat that distributed the wrong way round.

Ah, I see. Well if it is just fat, and you don't have testosterone to worry about, going off estrogen for a while to help lose weight could help. Again, in theory. No estrogen or testosterone is pretty bad for you though, so if your testosterone levels are going to remain super low you really need to keep taking at least enough estrogen level to keep your levels within the normal male range. Otherwise you'll have bad things like bone density loss to worry about. If I were you I'd just try to lose the weight while on HRT, because I don't think going off of it is going to make a lot of difference unless you're willing to supplement testosterone too. Why did this thread turn into a philosophical argument on the merits of passing again?

Quote from: Miyuki on August 07, 2014, 05:48:31 AM
Why did this thread turn into a philosophical argument on the merits of passing again?

Because that is the core of the thread.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on August 07, 2014, 04:59:50 AMBy quitting I meant quitting hormones and trying to work out to get a better shaped body.

Ah, ok.  So now we've finally realized - after four pages of posts! - that this thread is about quitting hormones and not quitting being female, let me ask the most obvious question:

What does your doctor say about this?

(And another question that needs to be asked: what did your doctor say in the past about your dissatisfaction with the effects of HRT?  Did he adjust doses, medications, etc. to try to produce more feminine fat redistribution?)