Another question: If the absence or presence of testosterone determine gender identity, then what about the case of the trans guy with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome?

Though his cells couldn't respond to testosterone and he therefore developed female body parts, he still had a male gender identity that had been noticed since age 3.

Quote from: noah732 on August 07, 2014, 11:24:47 AM
Another question: If the absence or presence of testosterone determine gender identity, then what about the case of the trans guy with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome?

Though his cells couldn't respond to testosterone and he therefore developed female body parts, he still had a male gender identity that had been noticed since age 3.

Not familiar with the case, Noah. Can you provide enough details to find the case?

Quote from: noah732 on August 01, 2014, 10:55:06 AM
Nice article. But question: If genetic factors like a longer androgen receptor are responsible, why do identical twins sometimes have separate gender identities?

I can answer this!

Because Identical twins aren't perfectly identical genetically. It sounds strange at first, but here's why. People are influenced on a genetic level by what they are exposed to in their environment. So, if in the womb one twin is exposed to a different hormone from the other, their genetic code they're born with may alter slightly in one which would allow one to be transgender. Another example would be one twin develops a psychological disorder while the other doesn't, because one was exposed to something (An experience, a chemical, etc) and the other wasn't. Some twins raised in separate families are even different heights because of different nutritional and family situations.

Ergo, if being transgender (or the potential to be transgender) is shown to possibly have a genetic component, it's still possible for identical twins to not both be transgender.

Amy

Love Susans, there is always someone who contributes to our understanding.  For a complex question, a simple explanation which I was able to understand.

Many thanks

Aisla

Quote from: Dee Walker on August 07, 2014, 02:04:20 PM
Not familiar with the case, Noah. Can you provide enough details to find the case?

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-010-9624-1

Quote from: noah732 on August 07, 2014, 11:21:32 PM
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-010-9624-1

That is really interesting. Such a confluence of rare issues. There probably aren't 5 people like him in the entire world. I could only read the first page, so I missed a lot of details. I have no clue how that could happen, not even a speculation. I got the impression that the doctors who wrote the study are simularly clueless for the time being.

Actually, I do have one. If he's a mosaic chimera with most of one twin's tissue in the brain and that twin didn't have CAIS it's just possible that the brain could develop male even though CAIS would cause the body to be otherwise female. Note the description of his genitals as not completely formed internally. I hope he leaves his body to science.

We should take this as proof that even the wildest stories from our brothers and sisters are possible.

Dee

Just when I thought that there was a simple answer, I need to find out what a mosaic chimera is!

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge and for noting that almost anything may be possible.  Does this suggest that the current paradigms or theory are incomplete and need to be enhanced or even replaced?

Aisla

Quote from: Lonicera on August 03, 2014, 06:24:43 AM
Ooo, just wanted to say thank you very much for taking the time to post the link and apologies for not encountering it before. It's proving incredibly fascinating thus far. Wishing you the best and hope your training goes incredibly smoothly for you!

You are welcome. Training was great, but it is good to be home with family.

Quote from: Aisla on August 03, 2014, 04:35:33 PM
Lonicera, Ducks,Stochastic, SF et al

This is one of the most compelling, balanced and informed threads that I have read.  I appreciate the care, effort and thought that has gone into your posts.  Working through opinion and papers by oneself is a lengthy and often difficult process.  I now have a much better understanding of the different perspectives which are often tabled as opinion or fact in similar but less balanced articles.  Thank you for this, I am learning a lot, far more quickly than would have otherwise have been the case.

Safe travels

Aisla

And thank you for all of your contributions on this forum. Your perspective here has helped me in many ways to come to my personal acceptance. I hope to see you around for a long time.

Quote from: Dee Walker on August 04, 2014, 12:35:11 PM
I have an issue with the sample selection for this study. The transgender people were specifically chosen for homosexuality. The control group was not. This, with the low frequency relative to population of homosexuality, means that any difference found can't be reliably attributed to being transgender rather than homosexual. Honestly, I was too lazy, having found that, to bother checking the validity of their statistical tool choices.

Good point. It could be a limitation of the study. However, there is a trade-off when using a large number of categories. The categories has the potential improve our understanding within these categories, or multiple categories could degrade results because small sample sizes would become smaller. Not the last we will see on this topic. Subsequent studies should improve on these limitations.

Quote from: Aisla on August 08, 2014, 06:17:42 PM
Dee

Just when I thought that there was a simple answer, I need to find out what a mosaic chimera is!

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge and for noting that almost anything may be possible.  Does this suggest that the current paradigms or theory are incomplete and need to be enhanced or even replaced?

Aisla

A mosaic chimera is when two embrios fuse into one. Like conjoined twins but more so. This may happen more often than we think. If the embrios are fraternal twins different portions of the resulting entity may have different genetics even to some cells being XY and others XX. Expression, male or female, is still controlled by exposure to testosterone and/or estrogen.

This isn't news to biologists, but it's more detail than laymen are typically exposed to. I'm not a biologist, but my interests are far reaching.

Dee

Again - sincere thanks.   I will go easy on further questions

Safe travels

Aisla

Many religious groups are hypocrites themselves Christians Catholics with Church staff and volunteers that abused children etc. it should not matter what we are or are not just be nice to each other for the religious folks they should not be picking on people that are different disabled etc.   that's why I think 99% of religion and religious folks are hypocrites if you force your views on the other people aren't  you being a bully
Sorry for spelling grammar hard to type due to medical issues rely on dictation

Keep in mind that even if this were true it wouldn't account for "in between" gender identities or gender identities outside the gender binary. The moment you recognize the existence and validity of a spectrum of gender this attempt to find some explanation that defines people as man or woman biologically becomes irrelevant.