Someone who reads Hebrew told me the other day that in the Hebrew of Genesis it's clear that Adam was originally neither male nor female (just like God and the angels), but only became "male" after being split into Adam and Eve.

Is this true?

I don't know anything about Hebrew but I do know the Gnostic tradition teaches exactly that. The Gnostics also applied the same concept to the Christ, actually, though their metaphysical explanation gets a little convoluted sometimes.

Quote from: Elij on July 18, 2014, 12:37:52 AM
Someone who reads Hebrew told me the other day that in the Hebrew of Genesis it's clear that Adam was originally neither male nor female (just like God and the angels), but only became "male" after being split into Adam and Eve.

Is this true?

Makes sense to me. And a lot of other lengthy things that pertain to the story of Genesis.

Quote from: Jera on July 18, 2014, 01:20:07 AM
I don't know anything about Hebrew but I do know the Gnostic tradition teaches exactly that. The Gnostics also applied the same concept to the Christ, actually, though their metaphysical explanation gets a little convoluted sometimes.

Correct. The Gnostic tradition incorporated the concept of androgyny, but specifically beyond the body. It was very important to maintain the balance of masculine and feminine energy, and this goes back to ancient civilisations like Sumer and Egypt. Eventually, the "goddess" was removed and monotheism became the standard.

As far as Adam being without gender that's really very speculative since Hebrew is a very symbolic language. You can get various meanings from those texts, and every scholar thinks they have the right interpretation. I think what's important is understanding the metaphor rather than trying to determine absolutes. I mean, if you find out that the first homo-sapien was hermaphrodite will it have any real impact on your faith? Will it change your mind about sin or the nature of God?

Besides, the ultimate message of Christ is what carries over despite all of the details. His message was about finding the Kingdom of Heaven within and loving all things, friend or enemy, healthy or ill, and to talk to others about God so they might attain the same illumination (or salvation).

I like to believe that the Divine is without gender; or above it. If we are made in the image of God then I would think that reflects the soul rather than the body. What do you think?

To follow up on my previous post, here is a quote from the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas:

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner as the outer, and the upper as the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male shall not be male, and the female shall not be female: ... then you will enter [the kingdom]."
— Jesus, Gnostic Gospel of Thomas

You can see how these archaic verses can be read literally by those who might not understand mystic analogy, but it's pretty much saying that one must put aside the idea of gender when it comes to spiritual enlightenment. We only make a big deal about it because that's just the way society has evolved. Things have obviously been purposefully arranged to further divide and dominate our sense of Self, so we end up completely forgetting that the separation of masculine and feminine is detrimental to our inner balance.

Originally it wasn't the body that God created, it was the Intelligent Energy, The Spirit Consciousness or Soul that was created in the image of the Creator with both male and female aspects. Depending upon what texts you are reading or what ever and even Edgar Cayce hinted upon this and Gnosticism and so on but the body that will remain in this plane to rot long after the Energy leaves it is just that part of the material world. When we were first created our resonance was high and we fell deeper and deeper into our environment or this material plain. On the fifth day God created man in his Image that would be the pure Intelligent Energy, after the Sabbath he then created man out of the dirt and mud and breathed life into him and that was Adam and Adam had a gender like the rest of the beasts on the earth and that happened to be male. But the Spirit was still both So he took something from Adam to make Eve and again Male and Female and the tow can come together and can procreate. Most will agree it was a rib bone but I believe it is more symbolic and created Eve from the psyche of Adam and then we had a male brain and female brain.

Something to think about. If this is true then we are probably the fallen angels that the bible talks about because we lowered our resonance by delving deeper and deeper into the material world and cut ourselves off from the Spiritual Realms. After Eve and Adam ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge that was the straw that broke the camels back, we weren't innocent anymore and had we were ashamed of our nakedness and hid from God. When Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden there is a passage that confuses me and the p0nly thing that I can think of are the Elohim but, "They are one of Us now, the know the difference between god and evil." Who are the us?

The bad thing about it is the more you look into it the more questions come out of it. Who was Lillith, Adams first wife?

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 07, 2014, 03:02:06 PM
To follow up on my previous post, here is a quote from the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas:

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner as the outer, and the upper as the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male shall not be male, and the female shall not be female: ... then you will enter [the kingdom]."
— Jesus, Gnostic Gospel of Thomas

That is an extremely interesting passage, I've read it before in the Gnostic Books. I believe that is the point when we have learned enough about ourselves and our Spirituality and our understanding in order to not have to incarnate in the material world anymore. If this passage is true then being trans actually gives us a Spiritual advantage of being more advanced Spiritually than cisgender. In our Psyche we have already made the male/female connection.

I may be wrong about everything but that is just my take on it when it comes to the mysticism of Christ and the Gnostic Texts. These texts are really dangerous to the powers that be because it lays our own "salvation", "Righteousness", "Karma" or whatever else you want to call it in our own hands. It also takes the search for God to searching within yourself instead of external "influences".

But don't listen to this crazy lady, it's not like I have read and researched for twenty five some odd years from religion to psychology to parapsychology to investigating paranormal occurances and so on. And some things just tell me that something survives long after the body dies. I may have lost somewhere along the line though. Or became possessed.

Quote from: Jess42 on August 08, 2014, 04:27:29 PM
If this passage is true then being trans actually gives us a Spiritual advantage of being more advanced Spiritually than cisgender. In our Psyche we have already made the male/female connection.

I think there's a couple things to consider:

First of all, gender identity (non cis) stems from development issues, so scientifically there's no spiritual element to devise, BUT...DNA is a funny thing. It basically serves as — in New Age terms — the body's own "Akashic Hall of Records". So, if the Goddess element, or just the importance of Feminine/Masculine balance, was removed from the social structure then the body could be suffering from withdrawals, so to speak. Therefore, it's finding a perverse way of surfacing (and I say perverse in the sense of evolving contrary to standards).

The same goes for those who don't struggle with gender identity, but instead find comfort in cross-dressing. We subconsciously (and even cellularly) are in need of that feminine energy that clearly isn't even being purveyed by feminism these days. Instead of trying to attain balance, one gender is trying to one-up the other, but it still stems from the same thing.

I have a book called "The Decline of Men" that tries to explain away how men are being "de-masculinised", and some of the points are valid, but unrelated to trans issues. The author isn't considering more speculative perspectives. Cis men are going to be men, cis women are going to be women, and that's how it should be. Trans men and women — even though biologically anomalous — are going to be trans men and women, and that's how it should be, as well, in relation to social evolution since the dawn of patriarchy.

On the spiritual level, those of us who do align with the gender energy that doesn't match the body just may, indeed, have a boost in spiritual connection, but it still depends on whether or not one chooses to make that connection. It's more like a special feature allowing the option for a greater understanding of the importance of inner androgyny.

The King James version of the Bible was compiled with The Church of England in mind, and as he may have tried to keep translations as accurate as possible he also masculinised Christianity. The Hebrew word "Elohim" is plural while "el" is singular. Then there's the scripture, "let us make Man in our image and in our likeness." That can be interpreted different ways, but it still signifies a duality of the Divine. That duality has long been missing...in every social, spiritual and political avenue. So the unconscious response to that seems to surface more and more and nobody knows what to do with it.

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 08, 2014, 06:42:14 PM
I think there's a couple things to consider:

First of all, gender identity (non cis) stems from development issues, so scientifically there's no spiritual element to devise, BUT...DNA is a funny thing. It basically serves as — in New Age terms — the body's own "Akashic Hall of Records". So, if the Goddess element, or just the importance of Feminine/Masculine balance, was removed from the social structure then the body could be suffering from withdrawals, so to speak. Therefore, it's finding a perverse way of surfacing (and I say perverse in the sense of evolving contrary to standards).

The same goes for those who don't struggle with gender identity, but instead find comfort in cross-dressing. We subconsciously (and even cellularly) are in need of that feminine energy that clearly isn't even being purveyed by feminism these days. Instead of trying to attain balance, one gender is trying to one-up the other, but it still stems from the same thing.

I have a book called "The Decline of Men" that tries to explain away how men are being "de-masculinised", and some of the points are valid, but unrelated to trans issues. The author isn't considering more speculative perspectives. Cis men are going to be men, cis women are going to be women, and that's how it should be. Trans men and women — even though biologically anomalous — are going to be trans men and women, and that's how it should be, as well, in relation to social evolution since the dawn of patriarchy.

On the spiritual level, those of us who do align with the gender energy that doesn't match the body just may, indeed, have a boost in spiritual connection, but it still depends on whether or not one chooses to make that connection. It's more like a special feature allowing the option for a greater understanding of the importance of inner androgyny.

The King James version of the Bible was compiled with The Church of England in mind, and as he may have tried to keep translations as accurate as possible he also masculinised Christianity. The Hebrew word "Elohim" is plural while "el" is singular. Then there's the scripture, "let us make Man in our image and in our likeness." That can be interpreted different ways, but it still signifies a duality of the Divine. That duality has long been missing...in every social, spiritual and political avenue. So the unconscious response to that seems to surface more and more and nobody knows what to do with it.

Oh hon, I am a true believer that it takes both male and female to create. Both aspects Spiritually and in the material world genders. So to me God is neither male nor female but both in total harmony and the physical world mirrors that in that it take a female and male to create new life. So you will never hear me talk of God or Goddess but they are one in the same. So when I say God. I mean the One, the Singularity, Yin and Yang or whatever else that someone may call it.

Paternal and Maternal existences go hand and hand. Right now we are tansitioning from a paternal existence into a maternal existence. It has happened before. the Egyptians was a paternal and maternal culture where the females could rule and own land and so on. Then something happened and we went more into a paternal culture. But it is changing even now and has been for the last 90 years or so. It's really hard to explain unless you have looked into it. Just like with the Spiritual symbolism that follows the astronomical ages and the roughly 2000 to 2600 year and the 26,000 year cycle of the earth's axis from point a back to point a. Religious symbolism has pretty much followed this cycle from the Sphinx roughly 10,000 to 13,000 (the age of Leo, halfway) years ago to the age of Pisces (the fish) which Christ represents now to the new age which is Aquarius that we have been going through since the mid 1960s. A woman pouring something out of a container. But the Bible has been pretty steady from the age of Abraham (the Aries the lamb) to Moses ( the age of Taurus) to Jesus ( the age of Pisces). Just asking are we connected to the universe in ways that we don't know or cycles that we don't know? This is what makes me think there is something greater than what we know. I believe it is beyond gender or anything else and pretty much kept me believing in something far more than what we perceive.

Yeah I know, ask anyone here and they'll tell you I'm almost insane or at least on the outer fringes anyway.

Hi.

Of cause you may have forgot us underdogs who are born both male and female .... just to throw one spanner in the works ...or should that be two,

from conception we have all that,s required to be ether male or female how we turn out well yea we find out as we grow, so those of us who are both male female makes things quite interesting

Remember the first book in the letter,s = bible  is not the first one writen and the Hebrews came a lot later try the Caninites  who ever , youll know who i mean and of cause the Arabic  language the bible was written in ,

Whats been added and whats been changed and we dont have any first hand letters ,

To me theres a lot more we know nothing about  so be carefull of what you belive and think is true ,

...noeleena...

Quote from: noeleena on August 08, 2014, 11:40:16 PM
Hi.

Of cause you may have forgot us underdogs who are born both male and female .... just to throw one spanner in the works ...or should that be two,

from conception we have all that,s required to be ether male or female how we turn out well yea we find out as we grow, so those of us who are both male female makes things quite interesting

Remember the first book in the letter,s = bible  is not the first one writen and the Hebrews came a lot later try the Caninites  who ever , youll know who i mean and of cause the Arabic  language the bible was written in ,

Whats been added and whats been changed and we dont have any first hand letters ,

To me theres a lot more we know nothing about  so be carefull of what you belive and think is true ,

...noeleena...

Yeah noeleena. I haven't forgotten. Yeah you can throw two into the works. Hermes and Aphrodite in one body. In Greek mythology I think it was supposed to be more or less a blessing or touched by the Gods but I'm sure you feel more like us that it is embedded in the Psyche that it is more curse than blessing.

I definitely agree on what might have been added and left out. Only we can answer that within ourselves and our own feelings. And there is a lot more to it than we can even imagine.

That last sentence that you wrote is why I always keep my mind open to other possibilities. Of course you do know when I say male and female together it's not in a physical sense right but more of a Spiritual sense that doesn't pertain to the physical but the metaphysical? I believe as long as we are physical entities we are never gonna' be perfect.

Quote from: Jess42 on August 08, 2014, 11:13:06 PM
Oh hon, I am a true believer that it takes both male and female to create. Both aspects Spiritually and in the material world genders. So to me God is neither male nor female but both in total harmony and the physical world mirrors that in that it take a female and male to create new life. So you will never hear me talk of God or Goddess but they are one in the same. So when I say God. I mean the One, the Singularity, Yin and Yang or whatever else that someone may call it.

Paternal and Maternal existences go hand and hand. Right now we are tansitioning from a paternal existence into a maternal existence. It has happened before. the Egyptians was a paternal and maternal culture where the females could rule and own land and so on. Then something happened and we went more into a paternal culture. But it is changing even now and has been for the last 90 years or so. It's really hard to explain unless you have looked into it. Just like with the Spiritual symbolism that follows the astronomical ages and the roughly 2000 to 2600 year and the 26,000 year cycle of the earth's axis from point a back to point a. Religious symbolism has pretty much followed this cycle from the Sphinx roughly 10,000 to 13,000 (the age of Leo, halfway) years ago to the age of Pisces (the fish) which Christ represents now to the new age which is Aquarius that we have been going through since the mid 1960s. A woman pouring something out of a container. But the Bible has been pretty steady from the age of Abraham (the Aries the lamb) to Moses ( the age of Taurus) to Jesus ( the age of Pisces). Just asking are we connected to the universe in ways that we don't know or cycles that we don't know? This is what makes me think there is something greater than what we know. I believe it is beyond gender or anything else and pretty much kept me believing in something far more than what we perceive.

Yeah I know, ask anyone here and they'll tell you I'm almost insane or at least on the outer fringes anyway.

Right. When I say "goddess" I don't mean in the actual sense of the word; just the feminine counterpart of the divine duality. And you are awesome to have referenced the Age of Pisces in association with Jesus. It's even in the Bible when Jesus is asked when the end of the world will be, and he mentions the water bearer (Age of Aquarius).

Something to check out.. the section of The Kybalion on the subject of Gender:

"The word "Gender" is derived from the Latin root meaning "to beget; to pro-create; to generate; to create; to produce." A moment's consideration will show you that the word has a much broader and more general meaning than the term "Sex," the latter referring to the physical distinctions between male and female living things. Sex is merely a manifestation of Gender on a certain plane of the Great Physical Plane — the plane of organic life."

http://www.kybalion.org/kybalion.php?chapter=XIII

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 09, 2014, 12:58:21 AM
Right. When I say "goddess" I don't mean in the actual sense of the word; just the feminine counterpart of the divine duality. And you are awesome to have referenced the Age of Pisces in association with Jesus. It's even in the Bible when Jesus is asked when the end of the world will be, and he mentions the water bearer (Age of Aquarius).

Something to check out.. the section of The Kybalion on the subject of Gender:

"The word "Gender" is derived from the Latin root meaning "to beget; to pro-create; to generate; to create; to produce." A moment's consideration will show you that the word has a much broader and more general meaning than the term "Sex," the latter referring to the physical distinctions between male and female living things. Sex is merely a manifestation of Gender on a certain plane of the Great Physical Plane — the plane of organic life."

http://www.kybalion.org/kybalion.php?chapter=XIII

Yeah, I know. I actually consider myself Gnostic. Really to me it is the thing that makes the most sense. You, well maybe not you, but a lot of people would be surprised at just how connected our Spirituality is aligned with the Universe and it's cycles.

But humans in nature are dualities. Not by gender as much as the possibilities of doing good and evil. God and Satan. Demons and Angels. Physical and Spiritual. I just think we being transgendered is a bittersweet thing in that we truly understand male and female aspects but causes us so many problems in our Psyches and society. But then again steel has to be tempered by fire. Hopefully being trans will make us stronger Spirits. If not I don't really know what else going through this hell would be. One thing for sure is one day we will know 'cause nothing lasts forever especially human life.

Quote from: Jess42 on August 09, 2014, 01:15:35 AM
Hopefully being trans will make us stronger Spirits. If not I don't really know what else going through this hell would be. One thing for sure is one day we will know 'cause nothing lasts forever especially human life.

I've been studying the Western Mysteries for several years, but only recently came to terms with being transgender. So, to have that kind of wider view of spirituality and how gender (especially androgyny) plays a major role in the teachings and symbolism (like Eliphas Levi's Baphomet, the Great Androgyne) I definitely feel like a living expression of it. It adds deeper meaning to my life; not only spiritually but also creatively.

The only real Hell we have to endure in transition (besides that pervasive little demon called dysphoria) is the social arena where anything outside of "normal" is considered neurotic or evil. I'd say I'm walking/talking bag of weird, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe in my next incarnation I'll end up on a planet of sentient starfish people whose primary food source is laughter and have rainbows for dessert.

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 09, 2014, 01:37:59 AM
I've been studying the Western Mysteries for several years, but only recently came to terms with being transgender. So, to have that kind of wider view of spirituality and how gender (especially androgyny) plays a major role in the teachings and symbolism (like Eliphas Levi's Baphomet, the Great Androgyne) I definitely feel like a living expression of it. It adds deeper meaning to my life; not only spiritually but also creatively.

The only real Hell we have to endure in transition (besides that pervasive little demon called dysphoria) is the social arena where anything outside of "normal" is considered neurotic or evil. I'd say I'm walking/talking bag of weird, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe in my next incarnation I'll end up on a planet of sentient starfish people whose primary food source is laughter and have rainbows for dessert.

OK that definitely made me laugh literally out loud. I always tell people the are farting roses and crapping rainbows so that definatley would be Hell for me.

Between you and I, I really don't think life is supposed to be easy. Have you ever looked into the realms of psychology and hypnotherapy in the way of past life regressions? It was discovered by accident in the 50s by a hypnotherapist doing a session with a lady that had headaches that there was no physical cause for. When the hypnotherapist asked her where the headaches were coming form she started saying she had been shot in the head in a previous life. It is really revealing on a lot of things from our condition to hauntings except God and even then between lives we have no real comprehension of God other than Love.

As for being trans and a wider view of Spirituality, just get ready. That is what blew my whole perceived vision of spirituality apart and gave me one helluva ride. It pretty much sent me on a search on why and then I started delving into the more mystic aspects of Christianity and the Gnostic Books and reincarnation and all of that not to mention other religions and a game of connect the dots. The bad thing is it makes perfect sense to me but it doesn't to anyone else. Just be ready for that. Who knows? I may be totally insane. Sometime I even wonder.

Quote from: Jess42 on August 09, 2014, 02:01:20 AM
OK that definitely made me laugh literally out loud. I always tell people the are farting roses and crapping rainbows so that definatley would be Hell for me.

Hehe.

QuoteBetween you and I, I really don't think life is supposed to be easy. Have you ever looked into the realms of psychology and hypnotherapy in the way of past life regressions?

Psychology is one of my obsessions, actually, but I haven't delved much into hypnotherapy and regressions. I read about a few people who do that, and it's often difficult to take them seriously. I'd still be open to having a session just to see what surfaces. It just might blow my mind.

QuoteAs for being trans and a wider view of Spirituality, just get ready. That is what blew my whole perceived vision of spirituality apart and gave me one helluva ride. It pretty much sent me on a search on why and then I started delving into the more mystic aspects of Christianity and the Gnostic Books and reincarnation and all of that not to mention other religions and a game of connect the dots. The bad thing is it makes perfect sense to me but it doesn't to anyone else. Just be ready for that. Who knows? I may be totally insane. Sometime I even wonder.

Well, a lot of my views tend to defy everyone else's. I practically live in the "gray area", and try to explore more speculative and alternative ideas, because I think that's where a lot of the truth is. It may be covered in rubbish a lot of the time, but there's always something that tends to just make more sense than what's accepted without much scrutiny. I'm sure I'll be living in my own little world until I finally fall off a cliff somewhere in Oregon.

To quote Neil Gaiman: "I mean, maybe I am crazy. I mean, maybe. But if this is all there is, then I don't want to be sane."

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 09, 2014, 02:23:18 AM
Hehe.
Psychology is one of my obsessions, actually, but I haven't delved much into hypnotherapy and regressions. I read about a few people who do that, and it's often difficult to take them seriously. I'd still be open to having a session just to see what surfaces. It just might blow my mind.

Well, a lot of my views tend to defy everyone else's. I practically live in the "gray area", and try to explore more speculative and alternative ideas, because I think that's where a lot of the truth is. It may be covered in rubbish a lot of the time, but there's always something that tends to just make more sense than what's accepted without much scrutiny. I'm sure I'll be living in my own little world until I finally fall off a cliff somewhere in Oregon.

To quote Neil Gaiman: "I mean, maybe I am crazy. I mean, maybe. But if this is all there is, then I don't want to be sane."

So you see why rainbows would be ell to me especially eating them right?

Psychology is alright but parapsychology is way more fun. Especially paranormal investigations. More boredom than anything else but when you do catch something whether disembodied voice or shadows on video which can be debunked usually or a door shutting on its own or a rocking chair rocking on its own, all the hours of boredom become worth it. Some things just defy all logic or logical thinking anyway.

Just be really careful around Multnomah Falls or whatever the name of that waterfall is outside of Troutdale on I 84.

I used to do ghost hunting a long time go. My mom and I are kind of sensitive to that stuff, so I decided to put it to good use. Came across some interesting things. I'm pretty sure my old house had the ghosts of children in it. Never have I had as many occurrences of sleep paralysis than I did there. Never saw any shadow people leering around, but I did have a dream once where I was lying in bed and I could hear the faint sound of a child crying. It got louder and louder until it was right in my ear and then I'm awake and can't move. I was told that the house was a sort of foster home for several kids before my grandparents bought it. Creeepyyyy...

Quote from: sororcaeli on August 09, 2014, 02:43:25 AM
I used to do ghost hunting a long time go. My mom and I are kind of sensitive to that stuff, so I decided to put it to good use. Came across some interesting things. I'm pretty sure my old house had the ghosts of children in it. Never have I had as many occurrences of sleep paralysis than I did there. Never saw any shadow people leering around, but I did have a dream once where I was lying in bed and I could hear the faint sound of a child crying. It got louder and louder until it was right in my ear and then I'm awake and can't move. I was told that the house was a sort of foster home for several kids before my grandparents bought it. Creeepyyyy...

I go into a place with nothing but what the people tell me is happening and what they are experiencing. After the investigation either one or two nights and review all the video and audio, then we'll investigate the background of the house and property to see what comes up. I am one big skeptic and go in with that attitude to debunk everything for natural occurances that we can. I or anyone else that investigates with me have no sensitivity to anything so we try to find an answer for everything. Sometimes you just can't though.

Shadow people fall into the category of Parapsychology and the way the brain and mind are hardwired to recognize other people, faces when it comes to matrixing, full body size and shape and sounds like a person would make. I've seen shadow people out of the corner of my eyes but then on closer looking it is just normal shadows and the way they line up in your peripheral vision. Instantly recognize a shape that seems like a human and look again and its gone. Its when you catch shadows on video and try to duplicate it that it gets tricky and why we usually do two nights. One investigating and the other trying to debunk what we catch if anything.

Very interesting posting by you all!

I may add the Kabbalistic view of G-d in which at one pole you have the Unknowledgeable G-d (Ein Sof), and at the other end you have a humanistic manifestation of G-d which "dwells" "appears" to humans on earth on occasion. This manifestation of G-d, Shekinah in Hebrew and Memra in Aramaic, have  often been ascribed with maternal/feminine characteristics.

In Hebrew Torah (stolen by the Christians..LoL) Adam אדם ('a-d-m) -remember there is no vowels in old Hebrew- meaning "to be red", referring to the ruddy color of human skin, was used to refer to "the people" "human kind," not a human male.

So, in the first creation (Genesis 1:27) G-d just made Adam "human kind," and thus males and females

In the second creation (Genesis 5:2): "male and female created them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."


My 2 cents anyway 

Nice, peky! Always good to see some Qabalah references.

Also, the words "Torah", "Tarot" and "Truth" all basically relate to each other in translation. The word "Genesis" could also be translated as "genes of Isis".