Quote from: Lady_Oracle on August 11, 2014, 10:31:28 PM
Yeah but proper language and education is exactly what the world needs to know when it comes to trans issues. A lot of the hate we get is because of misinformation.

good point! So... do we strike a committee, draft a proposal and then submit that to the APA? Not trying to be snarky, here, but I have personal experience witnessing the use of language to spread misinformation and hate, its nothing new, and I am just wondering (virtually) aloud, what sort of media campaign can we start to promote acceptable terms of reference. The other hurdle is, how do we get consensus amongst ourselves? In principle, I fully agree with your observation.

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on August 10, 2014, 02:43:44 PM
I have no issue with the word transsexual, what Monica listed are the words that bother me the most. I hate those words so much because its basically invalidating my female self. Transsexual is just a medical term that I believe fits just right. But at the same time none of these words completely define who I am, I'm a woman first and foremost. Transition is what I had to undergo to save my life, a medical necessity.

This^^___^^ sooooo so much describes how I feel  on the subject. Transsexual or transgender, or even IS(and there are derogatory words for those of us who are this too. The "H" word for one I've been called by bullies many times) in my case only describe my medical conditions being corrected through hrt and surgery to as Lady Oracle so eloquently put it, save my life as they are medically necessary to do so. I am a woman, just a girl trying to make her place in the world above all else. And nothing, no words, or no one will ever change that.

Ali

Quote from: Allyda on August 12, 2014, 03:58:44 PM
This^^___^^ sooooo so much describes how I feel  on the subject. Transsexual or transgender, or even IS(and there are derogatory words for those of us who are this too. The "H" word for one I've been called by bullies many times) in my case only describe my medical conditions being corrected through hrt and surgery to as Lady Oracle so eloquently put it, save my life as they are medically necessary to do so. I am a woman, just a girl trying to make her place in the world above all else. And nothing, no words, or no one will ever change that.

Ali

Couldn't agree more. Words only have power if we give them power. I honestly don't care what term people call me, because at the end of the day I know who I am and what I am. And as Lady Oracle stated the words come with misinformation and I would like that to change, have even been called a ->-bleeped-<- on more than one occasion (due to the fact that I'm going to have to save up for GRS, and I haven't even started HRT yet, I'm still physically male). Do I let it get to me? No. Do I wish people had a better understanding? Goddess yes. We are who we are, don't let the words have power.

well... there you go.

Quote from: EllieM on August 12, 2014, 04:15:38 PM

well... there you go.

I didn't realize I summed it up so well, lol!

Quote from: GenTechJ on August 12, 2014, 04:09:16 PM
Couldn't agree more. Words only have power if we give them power. I honestly don't care what term people call me, because at the end of the day I know who I am and what I am. And as Lady Oracle stated the words come with misinformation and I would like that to change, have even been called a ->-bleeped-<- on more than one occasion (due to the fact that I'm going to have to save up for GRS, and I haven't even started HRT yet, I'm still physically male). Do I let it get to me? No. Do I wish people had a better understanding? Goddess yes. We are who we are, don't let the words have power.

I couldn't have thought of a better addition ^^___^^ to this if I had tried. Thanks GenTechJ!

Ali

Quote from: GenTechJ on August 12, 2014, 04:09:16 PM
Couldn't agree more. Words only have power if we give them power. I honestly don't care what term people call me, because at the end of the day I know who I am and what I am. And as Lady Oracle stated the words come with misinformation and I would like that to change, have even been called a ->-bleeped-<- on more than one occasion (due to the fact that I'm going to have to save up for GRS, and I haven't even started HRT yet, I'm still physically male). Do I let it get to me? No. Do I wish people had a better understanding? Goddess yes. We are who we are, don't let the words have power.

I have to strongly disagree. Words have power, and it is very strong. I was made fun of for being stupid for at least ten years. I heard it non stop with most every friend I've had and I started to believe it. No one ever told me I was smart except for teachers that didn't matter. What we need to do is show people, especially kids and teens is that they can advocate and speak for themselves, to show that they need to try to educate others.

Quote from: Riley Skye on August 12, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
I have to strongly disagree. Words have power, and it is very strong. I was made fun of for being stupid for at least ten years. I heard it non stop with most every friend I've had and I started to believe it. No one ever told me I was smart except for teachers that didn't matter. What we need to do is show people, especially kids and teens is that they can advocate and speak for themselves, to show that they need to try to educate others.

I in no way doubt your authenticity and that you've been hurt in the past by words people with less than your best intentions have said -so have I. The word "hermaphrodite" still haunts me to this day. But it's a matter of perspective. I let that word bother me so thus, I am giving the word power by doing so. This becomes easier to understand as you get older. Yet even though I know this, because this particular word and a few others were used in a derogatory way to hurt me over and over by people who were supposed to love me it's ingrained in my mind as bad, awful, and disturbing because of how it was used toward me especially as a child. It still bothers me every time I hear it even when used by someone only trying to understand what I've gone through, as was the case the other day at a friends house. But it's my perspective of the word which makes it bother me. Therefore I do understand your perspective on transsexual vs. transgender along with the need for education to hopefully one day in the future prevent these words from being used in a way perceived as derogatory.

Ali

Quote from: Allyda on August 12, 2014, 06:16:40 PM
I in no way doubt your authenticity and that you've been hurt in the past by words people with less than your best intentions have said -so have I. The word "hermaphrodite" still haunts me to this day. But it's a matter of perspective. I let that word bother me so thus, I am giving the word power by doing so. This becomes easier to understand as you get older. Yet even though I know this, because this particular word and a few others were used in a derogatory way to hurt me over and over by people who were supposed to love me it's ingrained in my mind as bad, awful, and disturbing because of how it was used toward me especially as a child. It still bothers me every time I hear it even when used by someone only trying to understand what I've gone through, as was the case the other day at a friends house. But it's my perspective of the word which makes it bother me. Therefore I do understand your perspective on transsexual vs. transgender along with the need for education to hopefully one day in the future prevent these words from being used in a way perceived as derogatory.

Ali

I used to think that way and then I realized that wasn't the case. Bullies hurt as you are well aware of. What we can do is to take action and do our best to leave abusive relationship. I was in one with my friends for years and it took me until October 2012 to fully realize and another year to leave and I'm still shaken from it ten months later.

Quote from: Riley Skye on August 12, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
I used to think that way and then I realized that wasn't the case. Bullies hurt as you are well aware of. What we can do is to take action and do our best to leave abusive relationship. I was in one with my friends for years and it took me until October 2012 to fully realize and another year to leave and I'm still shaken from it ten months later.

But you're still giving them the power to hurt you hun.
Just my opinion here, but when I told one friend I was transgender her immeadiate response was "Oh hell no. Get that fixed now!"

Which, yeah it hurt a lot when I was coming out to have someone I thought I was so close to, to just erase me from her life because of that. We're patching things up, and I'm glad to have her back in my life. But I'm a bit wary. If you give people the power to hurt you, you will be hurt.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, 'trans-sexual', 'trans-vestite', 'trans-gender' are just words constructed to convey meaning.  They define/describe different concepts or conditions.

I think that people have gotten too emotionally invested in what are essentially just descriptors with no inherent positive or negative connotations.  I think that certain organizations in their efforts to define what is politically correct or socially 'acceptable', have imbued what are essentially neutral terms with negative connotations.

I mean seriously why is 'cross-dresser' inherently more acceptable or less "offensive" than '->-bleeped-<-'?  They mean exactly the same thing.

Quote from: Susan522 on August 12, 2014, 06:49:54 PM
As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, 'trans-sexual', 'trans-vestite', 'trans-gender' are just words constructed to convey meaning.  They define/describe different concepts or conditions.

True, but words are not neutral once they take on certain connotations and represent the ill-informed views of a society.  I agree with the OP that transgender is a better descriptor than transsexual.  It's the association with homosexual, bisexual, etc., which are about sexual orientation, that causes many in society to misunderstand us.  The T in LGBT is very different from the others.

How about a different perspective?

For those of us who transition, let's just think of ourselves as women (or men for the transmen) who happen to have a trans history. And you can call that trans history transsexual or transgender and both would be correct.

"True, but words are not neutral once they take on certain connotations and represent the ill-informed views of a society."

And who "informed" the views of society?  Were they not they very same activists who are decrying those "negative connotations"?

Changing Sex=transsexual
Changing Gender=transgender
Changing Clothes=->-bleeped-<-

I simply can not, do not see the problem.

Saying that because some people use these words to cause hurt should not be a reason to "hate" the word.  Just doesn't make any sense to me.

The point that so many people here seem to be missing is that words are inherently neutral.  There is nothing amoral, wrong, or quantifiably bad about any word in any language that I can think of, at least out side of Monty Python skits.  What offends us is the thought behind the word, and banning the word only causes people to suppress the thought, and prevents any meaningful dialogue from actually occurring.

Furthermore, NOBODY here has any right to tell anyone else how they can or cannot identify.  I am in the process of changing my sex.  I am transexual.  And nobody in this forum has the right to tell me that I can't identify that way because it's a term that they dislike.  I also identify as queer, have friends who call themselves ->-bleeped-<-gots, ->-bleeped-<-s, dykes, gender->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s, and a host of other terms some of you might find offensive.  And it's their right-and anyone else's-to do so.

Guess what?  If you take offense at someone else's identity, it's your problem, not theirs.  That's identity politics 101 for you.  So please, PLEASE stop telling me that I can't choose what to call myself because occasionally someone with a less enlightened worldview uses the word to propagate an idea that bothers you. 

Thanks

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on August 13, 2014, 05:57:08 PM
The point that so many people here seem to be missing is that words are inherently neutral.  There is nothing amoral, wrong, or quantifiably bad about any word in any language that I can think of, at least out side of Monty Python skits.  What offends us is the thought behind the word, and banning the word only causes people to suppress the thought, and prevents any meaningful dialogue from actually occurring.

Furthermore, NOBODY here has any right to tell anyone else how they can or cannot identify.  I am in the process of changing my sex.  I am transexual.  And nobody in this forum has the right to tell me that I can't identify that way because it's a term that they dislike.  I also identify as queer, have friends who call themselves ->-bleeped-<-gots, ->-bleeped-<-s, dykes, gender->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s, and a host of other terms some of you might find offensive.  And it's their right-and anyone else's-to do so.

Guess what?  If you take offense at someone else's identity, it's your problem, not theirs.  That's identity politics 101 for you.  So please, PLEASE stop telling me that I can't choose what to call myself because occasionally someone with a less enlightened worldview uses the word to propagate an idea that bothers you. 

Thanks

I don't think anyone here wishes you any ill will, or to tell you how you can identify yourself. As with all threads this is only a discussion where those of us whom have an opinion on the topic, and wish to can voice their opinions so we as a group can discuss them in a polite way. I haven't seen where anyone is targeting you per se or how you identify yourself. IMHO that is.

Ali

Transgender or transsexual doesn't bother me nearly as much as some of the stuff I was called as a Sheriff's Deputy. Those were definitely things said with true meaning. You know what though, I did not let them get to me at all. Just simple minds with limited vocabularies, nothing else. It is only a problem if you let it be. 

While I appreciate the positive intent behind the thoughts and the attempt to empower people, I'd just like to express my personal dislike for sentiments that suggest people are giving others the power to hurt them, that they're letting words hurt them, that they can decide to not react to them, etc. I'm happy if anyone has developed in a way that allows them to do that but not everyone can, not everyone wants to, and nobody should have to. Personally, I often regard such views as verging on effectively victim-blaming because they allow the onus for pain suffered and change to be focused on the victim rather than on the original aggressor.

Language is an incredibly complex sign system that we often intuitively understand. Accordingly, I believe it's commonly the case that we can have limited conscious control over its effects on us since we've automatically absorbed and reacted to what is conveyed almost immediately after hearing/seeing it. This means I'll always personally defer to trying to understand the pain people endure from it, help them with that pain, and use that pain to try to encourage societal change that leads to those harmful things no longer being conveyed by people. I don't want them to feel they have to suppress or ignore the harm.

QuoteGuess what?  If you take offense at someone else's identity, it's your problem, not theirs.  That's identity politics 101 for you.

Personally, I don't see where anyone in this topic has expressed that people cannot identify as they desire. I only see people expressing personal distaste for it being applied to them or think it's ill-suited to them. With regard to your point, I agree but I also believe there is a duty on the people that do try to reclaim slurs or identify in a way that would be frequently objectionable to stress that it should not be  applied to others without their consent. Naturally, I think it can be insisted that it's not their duty because the person using the word is doing the generalising so is the one creating the harm but that's simply not pragmatic and is callous disavowing of responsibility for potential outcomes started by their personal choice to me. I think anyone that identifies as a '->-bleeped-<-' or 'trap,' as some people I know do, and doesn't make it clear that it shouldn't be generalised is being naive or selfishly blinkered since some people will often then apply it to other trans people while citing them as an example of why they thought it was acceptable.

The WORDS, "->-bleeped-<-", "transsexual", "transgender", "trap"(?)...are not inherently hurtful or pejorative.  It is how they are used or interpreted that connotes the negativity.

How they are used, is the intent/responsibility of the user of those words.  How they are interpreted and/or responded to...is the responsibility of the object or recipient of said words.

If for example, someone is out shopping or whatever....and they are clocked.  That in itself can be hurtful.   If the checker or some random passerby points and giggles, or surreptitiously stares or whispers to a companion, that too can be hurtful.  Does it really matter if the term used is trans, ->-bleeped-<- or transgender?

It really is not about the words, is it? 

Quote from: Riley Skye on August 12, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
I used to think that way and then I realized that wasn't the case. Bullies hurt as you are well aware of. What we can do is to take action and do our best to leave abusive relationship. I was in one with my friends for years and it took me until October 2012 to fully realize and another year to leave and I'm still shaken from it ten months later.

I use to get teased all the time. Called named ect just because I was short, skinny or had glasses.

Know what hurt more? getting my head slammed into a locker. I understand mental bulling, but words are just words and they have long sense hurt me. Do I get upset when I hear a friend or someone use the term ->-bleeped-<- ect? Yes! do I dwell on it let it take hold? No, that is energy wasted.

we are also talking about the words transgender and transsexual words made up to do exactly what we want, to educate people. They are to help people understand our challenge. They are not words that were design to cause hate or harm.

Quote from: Aina on August 14, 2014, 02:38:33 PM
we are also talking about the words transgender and transsexual words made up to do exactly what we want, to educate people. They are to help people understand our challenge. They are not words that were design to cause hate or harm.

This is a fantastic point!  We're not debating the legitimacy of using pejorative terms, even if only among ourselves.  So although I feel more comfortable with the term transgender, it may only be because it sounds more benign.  My feelings could just be superficial.  But when framed this way, I really don't have a problem with either word.