There has been a fair bit of talk about non binary/gender neutral pronouns but I can't say I've heard of terms to match up with other strongly binary gender group concepts.

So, for example: man/woman? "Person" I would presume?

Lady/Gent? Sir/Madam? Mr/Mrs? Boy/Girl? (Child) Brother/Sister? (Sibling?)

I'm thinking more around the use of these terms in casual conversation and addressing groups of people, some of whom might be non-binary. Like if I was to address a group of women I might call them ladies or girls, an address that might not suitable for non binary folk. Do these binary labels cause dysphoria? Are there any alternatives?

Grace

Plenty of suggestions re individual pronouns, but struggling with group pronouns. 

Re individual pronouns.

From non binary.org, a UK site:

"A gender neutral title is an alternative to the gendered honorifics Miss, Mrs, Ms and Mr, for people who don't fit the gender binary and therefore don't feel that a gendered title fits their identity. It is used in formal situations when it is inappropriate to refer to someone by their first or last name only.
For the most part, gender neutral titles without qualification/career connotations are not recognised by the general public or businesses/organisations. Activists and supporters are working toward awareness and acceptance of alternative titles. The generally accepted gender neutral titles are associated with qualifications and careers, such as Dr (Doctor) and Rev (Reverend).
For some nonbinary folk, being referred to with a gendered title can trigger gender dysphoria.
Contents [hide]
1 Changing your title
1.1 United Kingdom
2 Neutral/inclusive titles
2.1 Mx
2.2 Misc
2.3 Pr
2.4 M
2.5 Msr
2.6 Mre
2.7 Ser
2.8 Ind


Neutral/inclusive titles

Mx
Originally pronounced mux, but now sometimes mix or mixter. The x acts as a wild card, taking the usual title format of Mr and Ms and putting in an x to remove the gender in the title. The title was intended as one that expresses no gender, rather than a specifically genderqueer title, and thus can be used by anyone regardless of gender/trans* identity.[1]
Example: Mx Sam Smith, Mx Smith.
Nat Titman spoke about the origins of Mx and their preferences in question 23 of the Beyond the Binary interview series:
"I liked Mx better when I first saw it being used around the turn of the millennium when it was described as a gender non-specific title that could be used for anyone, where the x was intended as a wildcard that could match any other title, much like the asterisk on 'trans*'. At that time it had the suggested pronunciation of 'mux'. It wasn't until 2002 that I saw people claiming that it's pronounced 'mixture' but could be shortened to 'mix' (with others on the mailing list expressing surprise and disagreement with this), and several years more until 'mixter' was mentioned.
"In practical terms, I've found that in many accents 'mix' sounds too much like 'miss' when pronounced and 'mixture' is even more prone to sounding like 'mister', so the original 'mux' pronunciation may be more distinctive, although possibly less recognisable as a title (although it's not that far from the way Ms often ends up pronounced 'mus' or 'muz')."
Two of the most common ways to change ones name in the UK is by Statutory Declaration or via the UK Deedpoll Service; the latter offers the option of including the 'Mx' title as part of a name change, or as a standalone service. Their website [2] includes the following; In October 2011, we introduced the title of Mx (pronounced Mix) as an option for people who do not identify themselves as either male or female and, therefore, feel a gender specific title such as Mr or Miss is inappropriate and unsuitable for them. We are unable to guarantee that all record holders (i.e. government departments, companies and organisations that hold your personal records) will recognise your new title but we believe many will and in time all will. Initially, the problem will be record holders' computer systems not being able to accept Mx as a title but when a significant number of people request record holders show their title as Mx a tipping point will be reached causing record holders to reprogram their systems to accommodate Mx as a title [3].
In a July 2011 survey involving over 2,000 nonbinary respondents, Mx was the most popular gender-inclusive title, and was second to Ms overall; when a title is mandatory, 37% of respondents chose Mx, though the commentary points out that "lots of people said they had answered according to titles that are often available on forms, and that titles such as Mx and Per are rarely available on said forms."
Misc
Pronounced misk. The roots are interesting. The word miscellaneous comes from the Latin *miscellus*, meaning "mixed," following the rationale that a lot of genderqueer people would say that they have aspects of various genders at various times.
Example: Misc Sam Smith, Misc Smith.
First mention in January 2011.
Pr
Pronounced "per" and is intended as an abbreviation of "person".
"Per" as a personal pronoun replaces gendered personal pronouns "his" and "her" in the future of Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy.
M
Pronounced em, like the letter. Meant to be a neutral title that is not based off "mixing" binary genders. One potential problem is conflation with the French "M." for "Monsieur," a masculine title. [4][5]
Msr
Pronounced misser. [6]
Mre
Pronounced mystery. A play on non-binary gender often being perceived as "mysterious." One potential problem is that it contains the "mister" and "miss" sounds in the beginning.
Ser
Pronounced sair, to rhyme with hair. A neutralisation of the word "Sir" that's been used sporadically in works of fiction such as Greg Bear's The Way novels, and the Dragon Age series of video games. Due to this wider exposure, it seems to more readily "click" into place for certain people.
Ind
Ind is short for "Individual". This title may be more appropriate for those who do not feel "mixed gender" implied titles meets their gender-neutral standards. Ind was designed to be entirely free of gender, thus making it an attractive option for agender and gender nonconforming persons."

As with any trans* person always polite to ask first.  Will share other options shortly

Aisla

Grace

Language is still evolving.  I have extracted the following from "genderneutralpronoun.com blog" which provides a US view and the author's assessment of emerging terms, but again they are individual rather than group pronouns.

"1. Ne/nem/nir/nirs/nemself

Ease of pronunciation: 4/5
Distinction from other pronouns: 4/5
Gender neutrality: 4.5/5

Although relatively obscure, this has become my favorite contender. It follows the formats of existing pronouns while staying more gender-neutral than any but Spivak – you could call it gender-balanced. "Ne" is n+(he or she), "nem" is n+her+him, "nir" is n+him+her. Because it has a different form for each declension, it doesn't lean towards following male or female patterns – patterns made very obvious when you read works about obviously male characters with female-patterned pronoun forms. The letter "n" itself can stand for "neutral" – a property we are searching for. A reader may be uncertain how to pronounce "ne" at first glance, but pronunciation of the other forms is relatively obvious. One problem when reading aloud is that the "n" sometimes blends with words ending in "n" or "m," but it didn't occur as often and wasn't as problematic as "zir" with words ending in an "s" or "z" sound (see entry #4).



2. Ve/ver/vis/vis/verself

Ease of pronunciation: 4/5
Distinction from other pronouns: 4/5
Gender neutrality: 4/5

"Ve" is another good option, found in some science fiction, without a specific bias towards either gender. The declension is again gender-balanced, being evenly split between forms that resemble "he" and "she." But it does feel a bit more gender-heavy than "ne" – since "ver" and "vis" directly derive from "her" and "his," readers are more easily reminded of the gendered forms.  There are some cases where "ve" will bleed with words ending in "f" or "v" sounds, like "of" or "if," but this wasn't a problem very often – maybe about as often as with "ne."



3. Spivak (ey/em/eir/eirs/eirself)

Ease of pronunciation: 4/5
Distinction from other pronouns:2/5
Gender neutrality: 5/5

Spivak is the most gender-free pronoun that parses well in English (as opposed to "ta" or "thon," which are also gender-free but simply don't work in the English language), since it derives from "they" rather than from a mix of "he" and "she." The problem is, not only does it remove the "th" from "they," it also changes its grammatical structure. Even 'singular' they is grammatically plural (i.e. you would say "they were in the building" rather than "they was in the building"), while Spivak is grammatically singular. The claim that the Spivak pronoun is "more natural" to say than other neologisms is undercut by the fact that it doesn't actually have the same structure as the already-existing forms.

Furthermore, when spoken aloud, not only does "em" sound like "him" in speech, but people already write a plural "them" as em or 'em in informal writing, making the Spivak pronoun more ambiguous.



4. Ze/Hir and its derivatives

(ze/hir/hir/hirs/hirself)   (zie/hir/hir/hirs/hirself)
(ze/zir/zir/zirs/zirself)   (zie/zir/zir/zirs/zirself)
Ease of pronunciation: 3/5
Distinction from other pronouns: 2/5
Gender neutrality: 2.5/5

"Ze and hir" is the most popular form of gender-free pronoun in the online genderqueer community, derived from the earlier "sie and hir," which were considered too feminine/female-sounding since "sie" is German for "she" (among other things), and "hir" was a feminine pronoun in Middle English. The current forms are still leaning on feminine, by using the same declensions as "she." "Hir," although it's supposed to be pronounced "here," is read as "her" by many people unfamiliar with the term, and the less-gendered alternative, "zir," along with "ze" itself, often runs into problems when it follows a word ending in an "s" or "z" (or "th") sound, sometimes sounding just like "her" and "he." For example, read this sentence aloud: "As ze looked up at the stars, ze realized that this was zir favorite moment of them all." This isn't as much of a problem with "ze," which doesn't follow words ending in s/z terribly often, but the problem occurs much more often with "zir" than it did with any of the declensions of "ne" or "ve."



5. Xe/xem/xyr/xyrs/xemself

Ease of pronunciation: 2/5
Distinction from other pronouns: 2.5/5
Gender neutrality: 3/5

"Xe," it turns out, is supposed to be pronounced the same as "ze" – apparently it was an aesthetic change in order to distance the pronoun from its "sie/hir" roots one step further. It also balances the genders in the way "ze" does not – but it runs into the same pronunciation problems when following words ending in "s" or "z" sounds, and the pronunciation is much more difficult to guess at – I assumed the "x" would be pronounced "sh" or "ks," which would be either much too gendered or much too unpronounceable to even be considered. All in all, it has slight advantages over zie/hir in its gender-neutrality, but it keeps the same difficulties in pronunciation and is even more difficult to read than the original.



Honorable Mention: Shklee (links to YouTube)

It's nearly impossible to pronounce, but that's kind of the point. Used in the Futurama film The Beast With A Billion Backs, it was the pronoun used for Yivo, a planet-sized alien of indeterminate gender. Years ago when I first started searching for and asking about gender-neutral pronouns, there were cases when this was the only gender-neutral pronoun anyone was aware of.



What's next?

This post and the list of comprehensive links is an attempt to consolidate information about gender-neutral pronouns for people who are interested but simply didn't know about them.

The next step will be convincing people who like the idea of a gender-neutral pronoun but don't think people would ever adopt one that it is possible. I'm not sure how to tackle this problem yet. There's two possibilities I've been able to think of: firstly, to look into people in the communities where a gender-neutral pronoun has been adopted and ask them about difficulties they faced when implementing the word, whether they got used to using it over time, and why or why not. Secondly would be to form some sort of experiment where people who hadn't used gender-neutral pronouns before could try using them. It'd have to be in some sort of closed environment, since the effort of teaching every single person you know about these pronouns just isn't worth it in experimental stages. Looking at the trouble transgender people have had trying to get others to use new pronouns for them, it's not worth the effort for anyone just interested in the general sense. If you start using the pronoun in an environment where everyone knows what you're talking about and you don't have to explain yourself to each new person, most of the tedium involved in experimenting with a new pronoun disappears. I'm not sure how to go about something like that, though – maybe start an online forum, or a group within an already-existing social network? Not just the "I support this" groups on Facebook, but one where people could experiment conversing with these pronouns.

I'll keep thinking about this, but if you have any ideas or insight, or know of anyone else already trying something like this, drop me a line."

Be well

Aisla

Grace

I still haven't been able to find generally accepted group pronouns.

Binary terms can be uncomfortable but for me my comfort is influenced by situation and by intent.  I have seen good humor used in these situations. "Ladies, Gentlemen and all others ..."  "Dear people, that is everyone including males, females and non binaries".  "Dear binaries and non binaries.." but have not seen specific terms.

Hope others can provide suggestions or terms that they have seen in more common usage.

Aisla

There is a term "Enby" which comes from N.B, standing for Non-Binary, used as an alternative for girl/boy.

I don't see why it couldn't be used for group pronouns. E.g. "Hey, enbies, listen up!"

Can be used to replace girl/boy in girlfriend/boyfriend. E.g. "Hello, this is my enbyfriend, TJ."

Personally, I love the term Enby a lot! It also sounds like a non-binary term for "baby/babe". Although, I've heard baby/babe being used by both female and males towards their partner, but my point still stands!

I see it as trying to shoehorn the binary need and use of gender specific pronouns into references towards NB's.
It's trying to use the rules of binary, to force then onto non-binaries.
Groups,... use people, after all, they are.
Individuals,... use of them/they, etc., seems to be used more often than made up words.

The result of society in stumbling all over themselves in trying to apply their set's of societal rules onto NB's is the problem.
They have expectations that are not only unreasonable, but can't be met and in turn put the problem onto NB's for their insistence that the societal rules be followed.
The problem is the insistence of the binary societal rules being applied.
When stepped back from and looked at it in a generalized way, it marginalizes both groups, Binary trans and NB trans, by insisting that the rules of society must be followed.
Much like the cisciety rules that don't make sense towards transciety, simply because they insist on having it their way.

This isn't a case of majority rules, it is a case of marginalization of a smaller group of people, simply because of an ineffective rule of society.
Look at how it has been used to marginalize females as it is used today. It singles out people very effectively.
It's an insistence that individuals have to be labeled when it isn't necessary.
I think a much easier approach is that binaries should reexamine the need for these to begin with.
It is trying to classify NB's in a way that accommodates binaries and forces the same societal concepts on them.
It's a form of marginalization that isn't necessary.
Get rid of the useless concept, quit trying to legitimize it with the 'that's the way we always do it so it must be correct' arguments and the binaries will find their own way through it, or not.

To not adjust and accept these old archaic forms of addressing people, is a telling thing, that the binary world view is indeed somewhat bigoted in it's thinking that the majority rules, when this isn't a case of law but simply an old way of doing things by society in general.
It is much like the way the N word was used in addressing a group of people, regardless of their stature in society.
It took awhile to realize the implications of marginalization then as well.

Although it isn't a case of being inflammatory, it is still a case of causing harm by way of dysphoria, along with marginalization...
The realization that holding on to this form of addressing people is indeed a form of bigotry should be addressed, not the need to find accommodating labels.
To not address the shortfalls of binary rules as they apply to NB's, by trying to force those rules on NB's is what is wrong.
In other words, forcing their world views on to NB and expecting NB to be happy with having to follow that system which never accommodates them and never will.

Making up words isn't the solution, it's been going around in circles from day one.
Because these rules of society simply don't apply.
Get rid of the rules, they serve no real purpose other than to identify binary concepts that there are only two genders.
The rule doesn't work, get rid of the rule and problem solved.
Binaries should just get used to the idea that it is they who need to adjust, not the NB's.
We didn't make the rule, we would rather it didn't exist.
It is nothing more than a reinforcing of an archaic form of addressing someone and doesn't work any longer, not in this part of history anyways...
Ativan

In transciety, binary trans should consider just how the use of pronouns has caused dysphoria for them.
How it is used in ways that marginalize them as well in society.
I read a statement that said the gold standard of MTF is to be seen as a cis female. Why?
Society has set up the rules through the use of pronouns to marginalize this group and others by setting a standard that doesn't apply.
You are who you are and you should be proud of it, rather than succumbing to the rules that cisciety has set.
The gold standard should be to let them know you won't accept standards that have caused dysphoria as well as a host of other problems, simply for being trans.
An awful lot of marginalization comes from and is still used for the reasons set up by society in general.
It doesn't accommodate any trans person, it forces them into accepting an archaic form of rules, and one way of getting rid of it is to get rid of the need to label people as it is.
From my viewpoint, accepting these archaic rules is to accept bigotry as a standard to look up to, when society is looking down at you, through the use of their rules.
Ativan

Quote from: Ms Grace on August 17, 2014, 03:30:40 AM
Lady/Gent? Sir/Madam? Mr/Mrs? Boy/Girl? (Child) Brother/Sister? (Sibling?)

I've been writing my name M. G____ (where G____ is my last name). I'd like to propose this as a non-gender specific salutation.
M. Smith, for example would be pronounced "em" smith, I.e. saying the letter M out loud before the name.

I have no idea how to get something like this to catch on.

in norway, before oddities like "ladies and gentlemen" or "dear everybody/audience" were taken into common speech language, all speeches were addressed to a group called "godtfolk (good people)". speeches started with "godtfolk!", then came the speech. the people used to be worth a whole lot in norway, unlike in other european countries where they were just vulgar... so i like that group term a lot.