Quote from: asiangurliee on July 17, 2007, 10:08:54 AM
I am sexually attracted to men,, but I don't like most men either.

Isn't that frustrating? I mean, women are pretty and I can relate to (most of) them easily, but... they don't do anything much for me sexually.

And men I feel SO uncomfortable around, and yet... well, you know. It makes no sense, lol. I WILL say though that ironically, I was more uncomfy around men as a guy than I am as a girl. As a guy, I was terrified they'd figure me out, or think I was gay. Now... lol... you just wait 'till I find more confidence. This is gonna be FUN

I dunno though Nigella, guys CAN be wonderful. Whether I relate to them or not, I know of a few who are truly beautiful human beings... including many men I work with. These are people I would easily trust my very life with. Men at their best are so wonderfully noble and honourable... it's a wonderous thing to behold.

~Kate~

Quote from: Buffy on July 22, 2007, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 22, 2007, 09:37:32 PM
[And women have what men desire. Oh, it is so kewl being a girl  now that I have what men desire.

You have a 102 inch Plasma TV, Fast sports car, tickets to the next Super bowl and a years supply of free beer.

I am impressed Melissa

Buffy

You missed the irony.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 22, 2007, 11:51:54 PM

Quote from: Buffy on July 22, 2007, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 22, 2007, 09:37:32 PM
[And women have what men desire. Oh, it is so kewl being a girl  now that I have what men desire.

You have a 102 inch Plasma TV, Fast sports car, tickets to the next Super bowl and a years supply of free beer.

I am impressed Melissa

Buffy

You missed the irony.

No, got the irony, just introduced Sarcasm.

Buffy

Quote from: Buffy on July 22, 2007, 09:43:16 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 22, 2007, 09:37:32 PM
[And women have what men desire. Oh, it is so kewl being a girl  now that I have what men desire.

You have a 102 inch Plasma TV, Fast sports car, tickets to the next Super bowl and a years supply of free beer.

I am impressed Melissa

Buffy

WOW!! I wish that I had those things!!! Then I could sell them and finance my transition. 

I personally hate to use such a broad paintbrush to color ALL men as Evil incarnates.

I am male, and I don't feel that I have to answer that charge as I am not hateful towards MTFs and FTMs..although I don't think the results of the latter are all that good. I also do not think I am evil..not in the slightest..and I don't want to "know" you sexually either...I am happily married and shall stay that way.

MTFs however are a threat to most men because they feel they too could become female if it weren't for place/time/circumstances...therefor I sense the threat to them.

As male, I can say that I am most fragile in ways that women don't understand...and sexuality or perceptions of that sexuality are critical in the guy world.

If a guy swishes the slightest, then they get monikered as a ->-bleeped-<- or just a swish.

I believe it's also the incredible beauty of a TG that bothers some of them too. We all see ourselves with different eyes than the world see us....otherwise we all would not cringe when we see ourselves on a video or a picture from an unflattering angle.

We look into a mirror and don't really see who we are...but we see whom we think we should be. Macho....bronzed gods.... protectors of weak women is the stereotypical vision...but there are shades of gray in that too.

No..since a guy could become a woman so simply...at least the outward appearances of being one..then that's the threat I think. <I know I glossed over that a lot..and I do not infer that the change is simple in the slightest...just the male perception of it is>

It shakes a very basic foundation of being male that they are not unique medically anyway. The wash of hormones at some period of prenatal growth isn't the whole thing...it's a nurture/nature thing that goes 'way beyond the outward appearances.

I am not gonna open the mental and psychological transmogrifications that are needed..just the purely mechanical ones.

Remember that the biggest and strongest sex organ is between the ears. 

yw...I didn't get this old and not think about things deeply....besides I too am a "loner" who only had a few friends...I believe I "chose" them to keep the count low. It may have been that I didn't consider many to be my equal too.

I had a really good friend in a writer and confidant who eventually died of AIDS..and he WAS gay. He never hit on me at all though.

He enjoyed being the third wheel in dates I had and then girls were most appreciative that they had a chaperon to tell their mothers that they were probably safe from my advances that way.

That male friend and I usta sneak out of school in New Jersey and go to the Old Met Opera house almost once a month.

I never had any sexual fear of him and I don't even think he had one of me...we were very close...but not physically ever. I guess he got physical with somebody or somebodies who gave him the death sentence though..he died when he was about 38 or 40...I only learned of it many years later. That was sad..he was a brilliant writer. We defended each other from outside snickers..I was fine arts, he was a writer.

Never did the thought of having an encounter with him enter my mind...we were guys and he may have held that back in deference to my guy-ness.

I have found that I have no use for men. I think that this feeling comes from the fact that men r the ones who have made all the stupid ignorant comments when they found out about my transition, whereas the women have all been so sympathetic and awesome about it. I spoke to a friend of mine about this. He is a straight male that works at lesbian bar that I hang out at here in Montreal. He made a few very interesting points. What he said was that women have had to fight for their right to do anything... whether it was the right to vote or the right to wear pants. Men on the other hand haven't changed since they were cavemen. Men have never been forced to re-examine the way that they view the world because they have never been in any situation that has required it of them.

It seems there is a lot of stereo typing of the role males are expected to play therefor hate the whole group.  Each person is an individual and deserves to treated as such. Many men do not like the role they are expected to play. If you get past the mask society forced them to ware then you will find a real person.

I agree with u Lisa. The problem is that even though many men will let the mask come off in private and display great amounts of empathy, the minute they are back with the rest of their guy friends, the old mentality sets back in. Like I mentioned, this has so much to do with the expectations of men in our society. Until there is some sort of movement that forces men to re-evalute themselves, I don't really see this situation changing all that much.

About six years ago I began my transitioning.  It wasn't long after I started using estrogen that my view of men changed.  I began to develop an intense dislike of them.  For me it was needing to wipe out my 'guilt by association."  They were the most repulsive form of life I could imagine.  I could never understand how they could talk about women and our bodies as they did and still want to date, court, and have sex with a woman.  Such talk never came from my mouth, ever.  I held genetic women in extremely high esteem and lived accordingly.

After what was apparently enough time finding all men loathsome I began to become more forgiving and tolerant of them in general and narrowed my loathing to those I believe deserved it.

As for a relationship with a man, it is a non-starter.  I have no desire for a man, women only, and I don't care if they are GG or M to F. 

Wing Walker

Hey Wing Walker,

Great post. I guess that's 'cause I agree with everything u said.

all the best...

V xx

Estrogen allowed me to really find myself as bisexual. I'm like Kate, men generally make me uncomfortable, but the sexual attraction (to the extent I have any at all) is undeniably there, like it or not.

Perhaps like Kate, once my transition is completed, SRS and all, I will be able to relax better around men. I hate feeling threatened every time I'm out alone and see a group of men. My instinct is to get away immediately. I still need to get over those rapes when I was 13, as well as the years of trauma resulting from being forced into the company of boys where I obviously did not fit in. When I look back on that male socialization I endured, all I can see is a bottomless pit of misery and horror. I need to move forward all the way and get clear of the past before I can hope to relate to men in a balanced and healthy way.

A large part of my discomfort is being obviously very femme but not securely placed in the female niche of the binary yet. I will be there very soon! My presenting ambiguous gender makes men uneasy, and that in turn causes me discomfort being around their vibes. Guess I'm just not cut out to be genderqueer, I belong on the female side of the binary.

I just like women ever so much better, in every respect. I find the company of women a healing refuge when the stress of living in a male-dominated world becomes too oppressive. Bisexuality or attraction to men has no real significance for me, it's just there like any other biological function, big deal. But lesbianism holds very deep and vital significance for me, emotionally, spiritually, I thrive on the love of women for women, it makes my life complete.

I didn't enjoy growing up with men, but I do have more than a few kick butt guy friends.  So I can't say that's a whole lot to do with it.

Quote from: Kiera on September 22, 2007, 04:35:32 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 17, 2007, 05:00:19 PMAs an ftm, my first lesson in kindergarten was:

Girls = mean

Boys = nice

Nero, I'm with you on this one! Having had time to extensively observe two kids, boy 7 and girl 9, and their alleged friends I find "properly socialized" girls to be generally much more self-centered and cruel when it comes to relationships between each other whereas young boys are for the most part much more innocent, honest and straightforward with each other.

I have two daughters and one son.  They are all extremely considerate and well liked by their peers.  My son is the least confrontational with me.  My youngest daughter (16), who is the most sensitive and considerate of my three children, is the most confrontational with me. 

In the Bronx I attended the nerdy class.  Some of the children were snooty but most were nice.  I was shark bait outside of class.  Fortunately I befriended a shark or two that was at the top of the food chain.

If I displeased my dad I was shark bait and the young boys sensed an easy meal.

I rarely seek the company of men, usually I will as a last resort, and think the whole time "I wish there was a woman around to talk to...".  I find group discussions among male coworkers to be soooooo boring sometimes.  They are often crude, and get so emotionally involved in sports talk, and statistics *yawn*. They scratch, pick their noses, and keep right on going.
There are a few men I enjoy the company of, but they are as interested in literature, movies, and the like, more so than most guys.
Nah.....gimmie a girl, any day.  Clean, soft, nice.


Bev

This is too much of a generalisation....

Some men are very nice, sensitive, strong and cool...
Some Women are very nice, sensitive, strong and cool...

Some men are absolute pigs...
Some Women are absolute bitches...

Maybe what you really mean is you don't want to have a relationship with a man Nigella?

Patriarchal society= Bad
Men= Sometimes good

Wow, I envy how some of you meet such lovely women all the time.  Especially, since going through transition, I don't find all women sympathetic, some resent tgs and can't except them.  Some can really surprise you about how insecure they are!  I have had to deal with the biggest bitches in my life, starting with my foster mother and others over the years.  When you meet a real bitch, they'll take you down as quick as look at you.  If they feel you are a threat to them, you are dead meat!  I have also known the most sweetest and wonderful women that I ever thought could exist, when you find a gem, nothing can surpass them.  But on a whole, I would not say women are the nicest human beings on the planet just because they are women.
I also have met the worst in the form of maleness.  They can be physically, sexually aggressive and I have felt the full force of such an involvement since my childhood.  A lot find it hard to be honest, even the nicest guys still find it hard to be honest about who they are and that irks me.  I think many are not honest with themselves, while I find women in general can be.
So my thoughts are basically that being a good person does not entail being female.  It comes from within, it's only men do it more loudly and physically so are more open to being hated, women are more sly and coniving and a little harder to detect.
I sound pretty harsh I know, but I seem to be unlucky in having dealt with the extremes of both sexes, so I'm a little jaded. 
Sexually, I am attracted to both, but I prefer women's friendship, I can't relate to men as friends.