In another topic recently there was some discussion about early vs late TS's. I'm really interested in learning
more about this and I hope that everyone can use this thread to discuss the topic not snipe at each other.

I believe that some members of this forum that are early TS's believe the older TS is not really TS, if they were they would
have done everything possible to transition.

I have a theory about my personal situation that may be full of holes but here it is: I believe that my drive to do something
about my condition allowed me to somehow suppress the feelings. Maybe there are degrees of the TS afflictions. I also feel like
the total lack of information when I was dealing with my symptoms in the 70's may have played a role. I really did not know what
TS was until about a year ago. I just accepted the way I was and never associated it anything like TS.

A few questions that might get things started, you don't have to answer every question, they are just food for thought.

Does anyone have statistics of what percentage of TS's transition early vs late?

Anyone know what the early vs late demographic is on this forum?

If you were late TS's did you always know what TS was?

Is a late TS's something different?

Does every late TS's marry, have kids and then decide?

If you are an early TS, how do you perceive the late TS?

If you were a late TS and have transitioned, would you do it again?

There are so many reasons some transition later in life (especially if you were born before the internet).  For some, there simply was no help available to help them understand what was going on.  For others they understood too late and they had married already (to see if it would supress there feeling).

So many reasons it could take pages of text to go into.

I am sure many who transitioned later in life would have loved to have correct information available to them earlier in life. 

The old saying, "If I only knew then what I know now" can be so true.

Sarah L.

I would just like to add one question to this topic.

what is the age where you pass over from an early transition to a late transition?

Another question, what is the typical age for early transition?  I'm guessing somewhere around 25?



Posted on: September 25, 2007, 02:17:30 PM

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Sarah: what you say is so true.

Is it possible that most if not all late TS's would have done so a long time
ago had the proper information been available to them?

If we see a drastic reduction in late TS's starting around the year 2030 (age 15 in 2000, plus 30 years) we will have a concrete answer.

Even if they did not transition for some reason, their life would have been a heck of a lot easier.  They would not have had doctors tell them they were crazy and needed to be put away for mental help.

Sarah L.

The most predominant area of transsexuality in my opinion and with my experience is the remarkable way in which TSes of all ages make comparisons with one another. There seems almost an "I'm better than you because..." mentality to the entire spectrum of TSes.

I do believe that some people find out more readily, particularly in the time before the 90s and even before the advent of rather cheap PCs. At the point I got my first home computer, 2001, there was an overabundance of information on the internet for anyone, TS or not, to read and follow if they found that was their path.

I have noticed through the years a predominance of "computer geek" transsexuals. Often, I think, given the predominance of internet information, persons with access through their work or hobbies became better acquainted earlier with the information. Others were, perhaps, less fortunate.

I always believed until 2001 that "I was maybe the only one." Althoughy I had heard of Christine Jorgenson, she was about it.

That informational lack for a small-town mountain girl in the South and a very severe trauma associated with my sexual/gender ambiguity in 1971 was the absolute bashing of my early desires to live in the correct gender.

Others may have other reasons, but I would suggest that availability of services, knowledge distribution and negative life-experiences are big reasons why fewer woman and men of older years transitioned early than seems to be the case now.

People are who and what they are. I have lotsa flaws and am often willing to admit them. Nor am I particularly prone to indicate that I am "better" than another when it comes to my former transsexuality. We are given the walks we are given and choose. I don't perceive that there is blame or even credit in much of that.

The fact that you have discovered this part of yourself late simply is what it is. I don't think that people who grew up on the internet are any better or worse, more or less priveleged than people who were transsexual who lived in the Stone Age: the one where people made implements only from stone and wood.

Nichole

I really do not like to distinguish, but I do notice a HUGE generation gap where I cannot relate on a ton of levels with anybody older than 35.  Something often gets lost with age. I wish I could describe it, but something does.   

I am 29, and well I started transition when I was 28.  I also lived most of my teen years in what is now called genderqueer (it was androgyne when I was in my teens), largely because I did not know about transition when I was in HS, could not transition in college or law school, and it was a very good place to hide. But I did make a long term plan with the thought I may eventually transition. Like many young ones who plan things out (as supposed to jumping into things) I had to set out contingencies for the rest of my life and what would happen if my parents rejected me (which is what happened).  I was very deliberate.  I made a ton of mistakes along the way, but I am finally where I need to be.  My goal was to be full time in ten years when I planned things out at with transition being a possibility at 29.  Needless to say, I planned things quite well, with only one thing not considered. 

The truth is when older TS talk about losing there friends, I really cannot understand.  All of my friends have been very supportive, and honestly still talk to me now that I am full time.  Shock!  Again this is part of the generational gap, and I use 35 as a cut off age for a reason, because that is the age when the gap starts to happen. 

I like to break transitioners into three groups: very young (those who are between the ages of 14-19), young (20-35) and late (anything over 35).  Most young ones transition in their early or mid-twenties, with the exception being those who opt for graduate school, who tend to do it in their late twenties. 

I stress this because the experiences transitioning for the three age groups are very different in many ways, before, during and after transition.   As is the general personal history.  Those who think its not, well...I hate to break it to you it is.

This does not mean the older transitioners are any less valid.  They come from a different time when resources were scarce and transition itself was extremely rare.  People often forget how much has changed in the last five years.  The environment to transition is much friendlier.  I think this is often forgotten by many younger transitioners who question those transitioning later in life.  Gender conformity was tremendously more strict, and the opportunity to seek ones true self was significantly harder to obtain. 

With that being said I can't relate to the very young ones on other levels. 

It's difficult to put numbers on how many early to late transitioners there are.  Part of that is because the ways society has been changing has affected people coming out and transitioning.  So part of the question is did you come out later in life because you could deal with it longer or because society was less accepting back when you would have come out?  People are transitioning earlier and earlier partly because they can.  There is more information available to them, and there is more opportunity to make it work.

If I had come out when I was 18, at that time the age of majority in Iowa, it would have been 1970.  In 1973 they were still sending people to get electroshock treatment for being transsexual.  And please remember that my brother had been committed to a mental hospital.  I was very afraid of that happening to me.

Today an 18 yo coming out is sent to a therapist and is started on HRT.  It's a much different world today.

Quote from: Amy T. on September 25, 2007, 02:40:08 PM
I really do not like to distinguish, but I do notice a HUGE generation gap where I cannot relate on a ton of levels with anybody older than 35.  Something often gets lost with age. I wish I could describe it, but something does.   

I am 29, and well I started transition when I was 28.  I also lived most of my teen years in what is now called genderqueer (it was androgyne when I was in my teens), largely because I did not know about transition when I was in HS, could not transition in college or law school, and it was a very good place to hide. But I did make a long term plan with the thought I may eventually transition. Like many young ones who plan things out (as supposed to jumping into things) I had to set out contingencies for the rest of my life and what would happen if my parents rejected me (which is what happened).  I was very deliberate.  I made a ton of mistakes along the way, but I am finally where I need to be.  My goal was to be full time in ten years when I planned things out at with transition being a possibility at 19.  Needless to say, I planned things quite well, with only one thing not considered. 

The truth is when older TS talk about losing there friends, I really cannot understand.  All of my friends have been very supportive, and honestly still talk to me now that I am full time.  Shock!  Again this is part of the generational gap, and I use 35 as a cut off age for a reason, because that is the age when the gap starts to happen. 

I like to break transitioners into three groups: very young (those who are between the ages of 14-19), young (20-35) and late (anything over 35).  Most young ones transition in their early or mid-twenties, with the exception being those who opt for graduate school, who tend to do it in their late twenties. 

I stress this because the experiences transitioning for the three age groups are very different in many ways, before, during and after transition.   As is the general personal history.  Those who think its not, well...I hate to break it to you it is.

This does not mean the older transitioners are any less valid.  They come from a different time when resources were scarce and transition itself was extremely rare.  People often forget how much has changed in the last five years.  The environment to transition is much friendlier.  I think this is often forgotten by many younger transitioners who question those transitioning later in life.  Gender conformity was tremendously more strict, and the opportunity to seek ones true self was significantly harder to obtain. 

With that being said I can't relate to the very young ones on other levels. 

I would like to just say that I completely enjoy how you have worded what you have said here! where you have made generalities you have stated it in a way to show you are speaking just from your own experiences and that it isn't for sure the only way that is possible and you have made it clear that you are talking about majorities and not every single person!

I guess I would be considered an "early transitioner" by Amy's post.  But still, I think we all go through the same phases, just with the internet and all this wide support and a more accepting world, now things are becoming easier.

We were talking about sexual orientation today in my sociology class, and of course there was nothing about transsexuals in there, heh, but it's still astounding how much has changed over the years.  Still, in todays world, I still believe we are the left out group of society.

Comparing "early" and "late" TS's is sort of hard to do.  I think there are some prejudices against younger ones myself, just because my therapist probably would have had an easier time giving a HRT letter to an older TS rather than a young one.  Also, this is my opinion and mine only, because some of you will probably protest this. . . But I believe that "older" TS's have more self confidence and esteem than the younger ones.  But I believe in time that the young one's will develop this too. 

And to answer your question amanda, in regards to the how do we/I percieve older TS. . . I just think it's something they had to wait to do.  I understand how technology and support didn't exist some years ago for these things to be happening.  Also, there was a larger risk of violence as well, so it's understandable to procrastinate a situation as large as this.  I'm sure they are still as happy with the end results mentally. 

Excellent posts!

Amy: Could it be that the younger ones that are accepted by friends after they come out TS is because they are "genderqueer" and
and there is not as much of a shock as the late TS that goes from married with kids to TS?

What about the generational gap? Would you feel the same gap if the person were not TS? Or is it just with TS's?

When you started planning (around 1995??) the Internet was a baby. I would guess that no useful info was on it until 2000 or so. Would you agree? What was the source of your info? Were you in a larger city?

Nichole: My first observation from reading posts from this and other forums was that the IQ (Myself excluded) of the posters seems to be much higher than your typical internet forum. Since making that observation  I've read that TS's are often very intelligent.  Do you think TS is common in computer nerds because of a typically higher IQ? Or because of the access to information? In my case being very computer savvy did not help because I did not relate my condition to TS.

There are many reasons why people held off, like you had all mentioned. It was the times, lack of info, FEAR, losing jobs, being labeled as crazy, then they still used terms like that.
Like Lisbeth mentioned they still used shock treatments on patients in the seventies. You didn't know if you'd be commited or what.
In the 70s people were still afraid to report their boss or co-workers for sexuall harassment. Rape victoms didn't want to report rapes. Even though times were good, when you think about it, things sure were different 30 years ago that what they are today.

The clothes sucked in the seventies too.

I guess I'm an "early TS" since I transitioned and am currently living stealth at the age of 19.
I don't perceive those who transitioned later as not TS at all. I have nothing but respect for those who were able to live and survive all those years in their assigned gender while battling it out mentally. I don't think I could have done it. But I know also that things are way different now then they were in the last few decades- it may not have been an option to transition even if that is something one wanted to do.

I feel there is a little bit of a bias in the medical field when it comes to age still. Rather than feeling that those older who have already done all right in their assigned gender role should continue as such (not something I feel, but there are a few medical "professionals" out there who take this position), some also believe that us young'ns don't have enough life experience behind us to honestly say whether we're physically and mentally ready for transition. It's very difficult to get medical professionals to trust you before the age of 30, in my opinion. It takes time, and a great deal of patience. But, obviously, it's possible and here I am.

Did my post make sense? I tried to address everything that I could with my experience.

I found your post to be very well thought out and very respectful Lane!

I suppose I'd be late, starting at 42. I didn't even know it was possible to go from female to male until about 7 years before I transitioned. At the time I did find out, I was under such stress from starting a career that I had invested a lot of years and money training for, that I couldn't even think of risking it. Eventually it caught up to me though and I did transition.

I doubt that there's one universal reason for people managing to suppress their feelings. And I find it presumptuous that someone in his or her 20's could even think that they're in a comparable situation to the one I or any of the other "older transitioners" were in at their age.

I know I'm darn good at suppressing anything I don't want to think about - even physical pain. I lived with a badly abscessed tooth for 2 months waiting for my dental plan to kick in. Others may not be as able to focus through mental or physical discomfort.

Dennis

I have to echo what Elizabeth said.  I first started feeling "like a girl" in the early '70's as well, and I did a lot of research on my feelings at the university level during 1971-74.  Apparently, I never ran across Harry Benjamin's early research, and everything that I found during that time related TSism to sexually related behavior problems.  I knew I wasn't gay, had incorrect feelings for my mom, or anything else like that.  So I chose to think of myself as just kind of different, and I attempted to go on with life, stuffing the feelings as I went along.  In spite of being caught crossdressing in high school (1970) I never admitted anything until I went for counseling in 1999.

Things would have been far easier had that happened today.

Carol

Quote from: Kiera on September 25, 2007, 04:44:21 PM

Quote from: Lane on September 25, 2007, 04:27:13 PMDid my post make sense? I tried to address everything that I could with my experience.

Yes! Very well said Lane! Although I composed a rather lenghtly reply myself I have since decided to stick to my guns and not touch this ludicrous topic with an even very long stick . . . 

Bottom Line Is I Do Not Envy You "Young Transitioners" At All because I feel you are automatically limiting your ability to experience certain things in life while at the same time opening up a whole new wealth of problems that most of us "older crowd" probably already have behind us.

I don't think because were young were asking people to "envy" us. . .  But can I ask what we are automatically limiting ourselves to?  I just ask out of curiosity.

ok I was going to try to stay away from talking about this as I figured that I had said plenty yesterday but the temptation has gotten the better of me (I am so weak against temptation it gets me in trouble all the time!)

at age 32 I guess I fall into the older portion of the young catergory but I have known exactly how I have felt for many many years and I still had not done anything (this has nothing to do with level of importance to me) I am married I have children and I have had several fears of damaging my children and hurting my wife I was worried that my wife would resent and hate me for not being the man she married (the funny part to that is she has said that she doesn't think we would have ever lasted if she hadn't gotten to see the true me!) I come from an old fashioned southern family that I was afraid of hurting. my grandmother who was the most important person to me while I grew up would most likely have never understood. and as far as the fairness to my wife and children I have always wanted to be a parent and I have been a very good parent! my wife plans to stay with me we have been having sex as lesbians for the last three years and we both prefere it.
anywaythese reasons may not seem valid to anyone else for waiting but they are valid for me and I cannot personally try to invalidate anyones reason for whatever age they come to the point that they can nolonger stand to live the lie and when someone else finally gets to start living thier lives in a way that makes them happy I am happy for them nomatter what age they are at the time. and as far as an age gap goes I have always been able to relate to people who were older than me better than people my age or younger people anyway so I guess I didn't feel the age gap as much as some. but I do enjoy the company of people of all ages!

Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 25, 2007, 05:13:18 PM
ok I was going to try to stay away from talking about this as I figured that I had said plenty yesterday but the temptation has gotten the better of me (I am so weak against temptation it gets me in trouble all the time!)

at age 32 I guess I fall into the older portion of the young catergory but I have known exactly how I have felt for many many years and I still had not done anything (this has nothing to do with level of importance to me) I am married I have children and I have had several fears of damaging my children and hurting my wife I was worried that my wife would resent and hate me for not being the man she married (the funny part to that is she has said that she doesn't think we would have ever lasted if she hadn't gotten to see the true me!) I come from an old fashioned southern family that I was afraid of hurting. my grandmother who was the most important person to me while I grew up would most likely have never understood. and as far as the fairness to my wife and children I have always wanted to be a parent and I have been a very good parent! my wife plans to stay with me we have been having sex as lesbians for the last three years and we both prefere it.
anywaythese reasons may not seem valid to anyone else for waiting but they are valid for me and I cannot personally try to invalidate anyones reason for whatever age they come to the point that they can nolonger stand to live the lie and when someone else finally gets to start living thier lives in a way that makes them happy I am happy for them nomatter what age they are at the time. and as far as an age gap goes I have always been able to relate to people who were older than me better than people my age or younger people anyway so I guess I didn't feel the age gap as much as some. but I do enjoy the company of people of all ages!

That makes complete sense.  I don't understand why you were shying away from the reply

as my wife tells me I talk too much and after yesterday I wanted to let others get thier view points in before commenting my views come across a little strong at times and I didn't want to let it scare anyone away from having thier own personal opinions heard!