I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)

I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.

i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.

Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)

I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.

i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.

Happy birthday 

the kids part somtimes makes it hard to know what the right thing to do is.

Quote from: Robin_p on September 25, 2007, 05:42:30 PM
I just turn 39 It's my birthday today... All i know is im 4 years old in this life. (just a baby)

I have issues with being a parent, my retirement, and the x-wife. I have hope of being in a relationship again one day as a t-girl.

i think all our issues are the same except for the raising kids part. Most young trans people dont have that responsibility.

Yeah, that's one of the only differences I think is the kids.  Not to mention my parents pay for my therapy as well, but I pay for pretty much everything else.  That's the other problem, being in college, and having no money because of cars, insurance, college, books.  The older you are the more well off you are I think as well for income wise. 

*Sighs*  here we go again.  I have actually promised myself not to give my POV regarding issues such as these anymore.  Instead, I have decided to provide links so that people can draw their own conclusions from them.



http://www.looking-glass.greenend.org.uk/primer.htm

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2945651_ITM

http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/psychology.html

http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/primary.html

http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_transsexuals



There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)

https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html



tink

Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 25, 2007, 01:30:54 PM
I believe that some members of this forum that are early TS's believe the older TS is not really TS..

Yup. There are a number of locked threads around here from the resulting bitterness and hurt feelings. Whatcha gonna do? There's always going to be SOME reason you're not a "real TS" to someone else. I try to ignore all that stuff (not easy, as it's just TOO juicy a topic).

But in the end, the point of transitioning is to be a REAL YOU, not a real TS, or even a real woman, IMHO.

QuoteIf you were late TS's did you always know what TS was?

I transitioned at 42, but there was never a time when I didn't feel an excruciating, desperate need to be a female in this world. I didn't know what I felt was called TSism though - I thought I was the only one who felt this way. And I figured there was absolutely nothing I could do about it.

The internet changed all that about a decade ago for me. I learned it was a known condition, and that there were things you could do to fix it. Even so, I never believed it would work for me. I figured I'd just end up a feminized male, an outcast, not a woman or a man. But I eventually realized that if I didn't at least TRY, I was going to die as a man, and would NEVER be female. That thought... omg, it's just intolerable.

QuoteIs a late TS's something different?

You mean is it really GID? God if I know. Does it matter though? I was miserable at age 41. I transitioned at 42. I'm living as the girl I always was now at 43, and I can't put into words how joyous I am in my soul. That doesn't mean I don't my own problems and struggles, because I sure do, lol... but DEEP down, I've found a peace at last I never thought possible.

QuoteDoes every late TS's marry, have kids and then decide?

Many do, probably even most. I married, but avoided kids because I feared they would trap me from transitioning. Sigh. I really should have admitted that to my wife sooner. Heck, I shoulda admitted it to myself sooner.

I think early transitioners have this idea that those of us who married had this perfectly wonderful heterosexual male life, and we just suddenly made this "lifestyle choice" one day as a mid-life crisis.

Yea, well, not even close. My "marriage" has been seventeen years of a wonderful friendship, but... no real romance. No deep intimacy. Very rare and reluctant (from me) sex. It's been wonderful and blessed in many, many ways. But... there was always this demon we struggled with from the very beginning.

QuoteIf you were a late TS and have transitioned, would you do it again?

OMG, are you kidding me? I lost NOTHING in transition... and gained my very LIFE. My existing friends are great with it, and I actually *gained* friends since transitioning. Not to mention my relationships with (my wife's) relatives became much deeper and emotional. People I barely knew before all this now track ME down to go to dinner and just sit around and talk. God, I'm crying as I type this... I just cannot put into words how unbelievably lucky and blessed I've been since doing this. It's like the entire world was just waiting for me to arrive, and now it's just welcoming me home every single day of my life.

~Kate~

Quote from: maybe_amanda on September 25, 2007, 04:09:22 PM
Excellent posts!

Amy: Could it be that the younger ones that are accepted by friends after they come out TS is because they are "genderqueer" and
and there is not as much of a shock as the late TS that goes from married with kids to TS?

What about the generational gap? Would you feel the same gap if the person were not TS? Or is it just with TS's?

When you started planning (around 1995??) the Internet was a baby. I would guess that no useful info was on it until 2000 or so. Would you agree? What was the source of your info? Were you in a larger city?

Nichole: My first observation from reading posts from this and other forums was that the IQ (Myself excluded) of the posters seems to be much higher than your typical internet forum. Since making that observation  I've read that TS's are often very intelligent.  Do you think TS is common in computer nerds because of a typically higher IQ? Or because of the access to information? In my case being very computer savvy did not help because I did not relate my condition to TS.

From my other girlfriends who are TS and younger, me having a background as somebody living with a degree of androgyny is unique and unusual for transwomen.   I could say even in my twenties I stuck to this to a certian degree, but it got harder and harder to maintain but also deal with.  It just wasn't me.  But the truth is the genderqueer background is unique amoung MtF TS (and more common with FtM).  I know only one other girl who took up a queer identity, who was a very femme gay guy (radical fairy) and then transitioned to female. 

I personally lived near Chicago which has a very long history of androgyny in the subculture dating back to the 70's that was different than the Bowie type.  It was significantly more about questioning gender identity by the nineties though.  Again I lived in a city where this was socially accepted by some people.

I had an alternative to being strictly male and gravitated towards it the minute I was given the opportunity. Not everybody had this, and I understand this.  Between 14-21 I was passing as female 50% and male 50% at times, no hormones, it was just the way I was.  Also I was in college in 1996, and 19 in 1997. 

The friends accepting is not universal, but it is part of the generation gap. I find keeping ones friends is common for those under 30 if they had friends before transition (many are socially isolated).   Then again there is also a subcultural context.  certain communities are very accepting. Goths, Punks, Emo (grumble) and Twee Kids, are well...accepting communities.  I am part of the twee pop community, which is dominated by women, DIY craft fairs, and was built on the philosophy that its okay to be girly no matter who you are.  Its a community where most people love Morrissey and has read his interviews on gender identity, so they are even have somewhat of an understanding.  Many are the accepting third wave feminists.    I could go on, but needless to say having a subcultural identity helped out with me keeping my friends.  Younger trans people who have a subcultural identity tend to do pretty well in terms of keeping friends, because we sorround ourselves with understanding people. 

Also I refused to make friends with anybody who is republican, and that helps quite a bit.

Okay the genderqueer background probably did help, so did not really feeling right being male and not really acting like one, but I really couldn't.  Its a different background, but the truth is some of us can only suppress so much of ourselves, eventually who we are comes out to a degree even when hiding.  Nearly ALL of my friends picked up on this.  Extremely effeminate was used regularly when talking about me.     

I luckily never married, never had kids.  In fact I can't imagine why anybody who is trans would.  But that is my perspective, not everybody has this. 

Then again...I probably fall under the primary category in some ways.  I never really fit in even when I was a kid I was always a gender variant, even though I was unaware of it myself. 

Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
*Sighs*  here we go again.  I have actually promised myself not to give my POV regarding issues such as these anymore. 

clever! there comes a time when questions like these don't matter anymore.  one turns into the spectator & observes the typhon from a distance.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on September 25, 2007, 01:59:15 PM
There are so many reasons some transition later in life (especially if you were born before the internet).  For some, there simply was no help available to help them understand what was going on.  For others they understood too late and they had married already (to see if it would supress there feeling).

So many reasons it could take pages of text to go into.

I am sure many who transitioned later in life would have loved to have correct information available to them earlier in life. 

The old saying, "If I only knew then what I know now" can be so true.

Sarah L.

Sarah, You've nailed it really.........

There's also the struggles to access treatment and you can run into fanancial problems. I was dignosed with gender dysphoria at 24 and I'm still trying to access treatment in my 40's......it must be the longest RLT in history at around 20 years now..

In a lot of cases the Early TS becomes the Late TS.....usually through no fault of their own......

I find that a lot of TS ppl who are older are transitioning now. Younger ppl are starting to transition now, too. I don't know if that was so true in the past, or how many people transition now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and the age range.

I also think that access to information is a key player age demographics and etc. Things are different now than they were 10-20 years ago.

I started when I was 27 and I'm 28 going on 29 in a couple of months. But this isn't my first "attempt."

When I was a kid, my mom talked to the doctors and I also went in a few times. The idea at the time was that gender is completely social. Not an uncommon theory in the '80s. Because I was so effeminate, the believe was that if I were forced into doing male things and having a male role model, I would be more male and be "saved from a life of torment" etc, etc. This continued on for a long time, up into my teens.

In my teens I tried to kill myself. I also tried to cut my own male appendage off (very unsuccessfully, which now I understand was good as cutting it off would have made it more difficult for SRS -- the condition is good, just a minor scar that is barely visible, so no problems). They church tried to help me and I tried, once again, to do male things and bury myself in church things.

When I graduated, I was pushed to go on a mission for the church. It was believed that maybe it would help me become more of a man. During my mission I was also undergoing therapy by the church to become more of a guy (to cure my "trans feelings"). The church also had a doctor who put me on a lot of medications, such as anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and the works. I was taking a cocktail of 32 pills a day. The theory was that my depression/bipolar was the cause of my girly feelings, and that the drugs would help cut those feelings of depression and the anti-psychotics would help get rid of any delusions that I "was a girl." The therapy would help and I would some how end up being a guy.

It didn't work. I just got sick, more depressed, and I tried to hurt myself several times during that mission.

When I got home, I was in such a state that I was very ill and -- excuse my french -- very ->-bleeped-<-ed up. I went from mental hospital to mental hospital, and tried to take my life several times. Eventually, my doses were cut until I was totally off the drugs.

Once off the drugs I tried to transition again. However, I lived with my brother, a member of the church, and the family found out. I avoided the church as much as I could, but my family bugged me a lot about it. My brother embarrassed me in public. I had no friends and no internet access and no support. I felt very alone and once again, fell into a depression as I grabbed a razor blade and started to cut my body all over.

I then grew a beard and tried to hide my feelings. I tried to be as male as I could. Not that I was great at is, because I'd be quite effeminate and a lot of people thought I was "gay." I had one ex-girlfriend that would always complain how girly I was. How the way I'd sit, jester, and so on was too girly for her.

So, even after all of that therapy, drugs, and self-denial, Natalie was still there. Natalie was hard-wired.

It took years to recover from the abuse I had when I was younger and in my late-teens and early twenties. The drugs that were used on me caused a lot of damage. My liver was toast for a long time and hormones weren't an option for me then (scary thing). I had brain damage that caused me to shake as if I had parkensons disease, which I had to take meds for, including anti seizure meds. But, to my doctors amazement, I healed and my liver bounced back in a few years (it's in great condition) and my shaking went down well enough that I could function and now it's not noticeable (and I'm no longer on meds for it either). There was a time that the shaking was so bad that I couldn't write with a pen, I couldn't hold a glass of water and drink from it, and eating with a fork meant stabbing myself in the face since I couldn't control it well. Now a days, I can eat and drink normally except that I'm a bit of a klutz with my motor skills and I spill stuff on myself or all over, or randomly drop things, etc.

And so, I've been off all medication for several years now. I still get the ups and downs of bipolar, but I've learned to cope with it although at times it has gotten bad. I could take medication, but part of me is really afraid of being on the medication again. The depression can be hard.

I'm glad that my liver is good so that I can now take HRT (and I've been taking it for over a year now and my liver is still doing great).

One other thing I did before I started to transition -- I got out of my shell and socialized. I found a lot of friends for support. I didn't want to end up in a situation where I had no support and no where to go. My friends are awesome, and I'm really glad that they were there.

This is the first time in my life I felt "normal" and that I'm finally being who I was meant to be all along.

I'd have to say that access to information has made a huge difference in peoples lives. When I was younger we didn't have the information -- and what was there wasn't right. It's a lot easier to transition now than it was years ago.

I don't think older TS people are less trans than me -- they had to suffer for a very long time with no information (or the wrong information) and little access to help and support. I also don't think that younger people are more trans than me, they just have an advantage that I didn't have when I was that age. We're all equal, no matter what our age is.

--natalie

Quote

I don't think older TS people are less trans than me -- they had to suffer for a very long time with no information (or the wrong information) and little access to help and support. I also don't think that younger people are more trans than me, they just have an advantage that I didn't have when I was that age. We're all equal, no matter what our age is.

Quoted for truth.

Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM

There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)

https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html



tink

Holy Crap! Primary explains me to a T -- it's majorly creepy! I didn't know what the two were about and never really looked into it. And then my gf and I talked about it and compared all of my TS friends. Most of my TS friends are secondary! No wonder I have a hard time relating to them half of the time. And even when I was trying to be a guy I was very effeminate -- my gf has seen video of me from a couple years ago and she says, "Yeah, I can see why people thought you were really gay!"

Although, I still stand behind that I think all TS are equal, whether they are primary and secondary. And I wonder if people can be in the grey area. I don't know. *shurgs*

But I think that one could be Primary and be older, too, because of the information stuff. And just because someone is secondary it doesn't mean that they are less of a girl. They might have a different experience than I am having, but they are doing what they can and they can be very successful women.


Posted on: September 26, 2007, 02:34:19 AM

---

Quote from: Amy T. on September 26, 2007, 12:21:01 AM


From my other girlfriends who are TS and younger, me having a background as somebody living with a degree of androgyny is unique and unusual for transwomen.   I could say even in my twenties I stuck to this to a certian degree, but it got harder and harder to maintain but also deal with.  It just wasn't me.  But the truth is the genderqueer background is unique amoung MtF TS (and more common with FtM).  I know only one other girl who took up a queer identity, who was a very femme gay guy (radical fairy) and then transitioned to female. 

I personally lived near Chicago which has a very long history of androgyny in the subculture dating back to the 70's that was different than the Bowie type.  It was significantly more about questioning gender identity by the nineties though.  Again I lived in a city where this was socially accepted by some people.

I had an alternative to being strictly male and gravitated towards it the minute I was given the opportunity. Not everybody had this, and I understand this.  Between 14-21 I was passing as female 50% and male 50% at times, no hormones, it was just the way I was.  Also I was in college in 1996, and 19 in 1997. 

I grew a goatee just too look more "male" because I've always looked angronous (damn, why can't I spell that word?). Especially because I acted very effeminately as a guy, I'd get ma'med from time to time. I actually got that when I had a goatee a few times, which was interesting. LOL

Quote from: Amy T. on September 26, 2007, 12:21:01 AM

The friends accepting is not universal, but it is part of the generation gap. I find keeping ones friends is common for those under 30 if they had friends before transition (many are socially isolated).   Then again there is also a subcultural context.  certain communities are very accepting. Goths, Punks, Emo (grumble) and Twee Kids, are well...accepting communities.  I am part of the twee pop community, which is dominated by women, DIY craft fairs, and was built on the philosophy that its okay to be girly no matter who you are.  Its a community where most people love Morrissey and has read his interviews on gender identity, so they are even have somewhat of an understanding.  Many are the accepting third wave feminists.    I could go on, but needless to say having a subcultural identity helped out with me keeping my friends.  Younger trans people who have a subcultural identity tend to do pretty well in terms of keeping friends, because we sorround ourselves with understanding people. 

Yay Goth community! Boo-urns emo community! LOL

I like Morrissey, too (actually, that's my last name -- I was born with it and kept my last name when I changed it legally)

I surrounded myself with a lot of friends when I transitioned. I found that it helped me a lot. I think it helps a lot of people, and the couple of younger TS people I know have done the same. Most older TS people I know do not have many friends and either hang out at home a lot or just hang out with other TS people... like me, which means I have a lot of people trying to grab my attention -- you should see my social calender. I'm not working, again, and I my schedule is so insane that it's like I work -- I'm hardly ever home sitting around! I need to find a way to make a job out of being social. Then I can pay my bills.

Quote from: Amy T. on September 26, 2007, 12:21:01 AM
Also I refused to make friends with anybody who is republican, and that helps quite a bit.

Okay the genderqueer background probably did help, so did not really feeling right being male and not really acting like one, but I really couldn't.  Its a different background, but the truth is some of us can only suppress so much of ourselves, eventually who we are comes out to a degree even when hiding.  Nearly ALL of my friends picked up on this.  Extremely effeminate was used regularly when talking about me.     

I luckily never married, never had kids.  In fact I can't imagine why anybody who is trans would.  But that is my perspective, not everybody has this. 

Then again...I probably fall under the primary category in some ways.  I never really fit in even when I was a kid I was always a gender variant, even though I was unaware of it myself. 

Totally. I didn't marry either and a lot of people picked up my effeminate nature -- I couldn't hide it no matter how hard I tried. I think I mentioned this in my early post in this thread, but one of my last girlfriends used to constantly complain about how "girly" I was and she tried to change me for a while. That relationship lasted two months-ish. 

I tried to have a couple of boy friends too, but gay boys didn't like me because I was way to girly for them and they picked up on it right away. The last boyfriend I was with kept getting annoyed with me.

Now that I've transitioned things are a bit better, because I am a girl. My GF and I have been together for a year, although it has been rocky and we are on a "break" now. And then I've been with two guys, although having the wrong part has made my sexlife/relationship-life awkward and really rocky. It's a pattern that has been through my entire life. I've always felt odd having that thingy between my legs. More so when I was put into the "man" category.

Last week my gf came home (after sleeping with a guy) and said, "Natalie, you wanna know what makes you a girl?" What, I said, "You sleep like a girl! No wonder straight-girls and gay-boys didn't hang around you very long!" I thought it was funny, anyway, but pretty true. And I remember a past girl experience when the girl said sex was "different" with me but she couldn't put her finger on it, and the gay boy was very confused and said I sleep weird (and then it didn't happen again). Weirdness!

Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 02:49:26 AM

Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)

https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html

Holy Crap! Primary explains me to a T -- it's majorly creepy!

Yes, majorly creepy, although in my case it's the early-onset, loner, not-particularly-effeminate type that is uncannily close. This yet again strengthens my conviction that what I have is truly a form of GID, even though I'm pretty sure by now that I didn't end up with full-scale TS. Also, I think that latter part was largely because of the environment I grew up in.

The first I remember coming across with the concept of transsexuality was an article I saw in the mid-1970's, about the time I hit puberty. My feelings were very ambivalent: on the one hand, I seriously wanted to be able to grow up to be a woman, even with the help of surgery; on the other hand, I most definitely did not want to grow up to be a stripper in Rio de Janeiro. In the end the latter opinion won, although it was a surprisingly close call. It took over ten more years to realise that normal people could be TS too, and get it treated.

By that time it was already getting too late, as I'd started getting a life as officially male. It wasn't too hard either (except for being interested and/or brave enough to start dating); the main reason, I believe, is that my family never tried to force me to behave 'like a man', which made it easier to get into the kind of gender role I prefer. It was only recently that I figured out that hey, really, I'd started a transition from male to androgyne about a quarter century ago -- even if during that period I also became a husband and a father.

Um, oh. I hope you don't mind me posing as a MtA TS for a bit. If you do, sorry.

  Nfr

Quote from: Tink on September 25, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
There's even a link here at Susan's (not a thread, an article)

https://www.susans.org/reference/obstg.html

Thanks for the links Tink!

I did not realize that this was such a divisive topic. And I apologize to everyone that has been around for a long time, I know this is probably gets so old, but for me (and I hope others) that are just discovering themselves it is priceless to be able to discuss. So thanks for your patience and insight!

I feel the need to respond to each one of you for your insightful comments but there is just too much. Thank you all for sharing, I've studied everyones posts and just because I don't comment doesn't mean I ignored it.

As for the article the primary describes me as well. I guess I'm early onset, late transition.

with really early transitioners, 14-18? its something i could have done, although when i was that age i was told it was illegal to have srs before 21, so assumed i wouldn't be allowed, typical idiotic teenager, rebelling against everything, and yet believing everything the doctor said as if he was the state himself.

what i will say, is that as a woman, having children is a massive concern and once you start the process of HRT your possibilities of it happening decrease until its impossible. Young transitioners can think that being ts is the only thing in the world that matters, but when they get older, and more used to being a woman, things can change and not neccesarily for the better.

when your 17, 18 your not thinking about kids, but when you start getting to your mid twenties, and all your friends are having children, their social lives start revolving around children, and suddenly you feel like you have missed out on possibly the most important thing of all, having kids. I have to say in my experience, there is nothing more feminine and female than bringing up and looking after children. So many men just cant do it, they can't tolerate it. If there really is a difference between men and women, then that has to be it, in my opinion.

if i was a late transtioner, it would be because i wanted children, more than i wanted anything else. Perhaps, like amanda for example, you never considered that you wanted to have children, and a family more than you wanted to be a woman. That would definately be something i could relate to as a woman, and would explain lots more to me about your and other older transitioners situations. A maternal instinct should not ever be ignored?

Having children is more important to me than any trans issue i ever experienced. I think alot of women feel that way about kids.

Quote from: carol_w on September 25, 2007, 05:01:06 PM
I have to echo what Elizabeth said.  I first started feeling "like a girl" in the early '70's as well, and I did a lot of research on my feelings at the university level during 1971-74.  Apparently, I never ran across Harry Benjamin's early research, and everything that I found during that time related TSism to sexually related behavior problems.  I knew I wasn't gay, had incorrect feelings for my mom, or anything else like that.  So I chose to think of myself as just kind of different, and I attempted to go on with life, stuffing the feelings as I went along.  In spite of being caught crossdressing in high school (1970) I never admitted anything until I went for counseling in 1999.

Things would have been far easier had that happened today.

Carol

Actually, the first I remember verbalizing my gender issues to myself was about 1960.  I first started acting on it something like 3 or 4 years before that.  I talked about 1970 because that was the year I became a legal adult.

Quote from: fruity on September 26, 2007, 09:53:04 AM
there is nothing more feminine and female than bringing up and looking after children.

A lot of women, genetic and trans, wouldn't be pleased to be stereotyped like that. Women are more than baby-making machines, and many choose to NOT have children - and it sure doesn't make them less feminine or less of a woman, IMHO.

~Kate~

Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 01:36:43 AM
I find that a lot of TS ppl who are older are transitioning now. Younger ppl are starting to transition now, too. I don't know if that was so true in the past, or how many people transition now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and the age range.

I think there has been another process also in play in this.  The more passible you are, the more inclined you are to transition and go stealth as soon as possible.  The less passible you are, the more time you spend thinking about it.  So there is some tendency for the more passible people to transition at a younger age than the less passible.  Or should I say, than those who think they are less passible.

I'm an early transitioner I believe (just after turning 18), and although I am saddened that I can never have children on my own, I do plan on adopting at some point in my life if possible.

Quote from: gothique11 on September 26, 2007, 01:36:43 AM
When I was a kid, my mom talked to the doctors and I also went in a few times. The idea at the time was that gender is completely social. Not an uncommon theory in the '80s.

There are still a lot of psychologists who think that way.

Having children and being there for them was a primary focus for me. I think I said in one of my posts that I'm so proud of how they turned out and they are very close. However it was never a conscious decision for me to choose children over TS because I did not even know what to think about my issues then.

I know this may set off a firestorm but I do think a women's highest calling is having AND raising children. In our case my wife gave up
her career and never worked outside of the home after our first child was born. We did not plan it that way it just seemed like the right
thing to do. Both of us were all for it, for me not in some sexist type of way, but because it was the right thing to do in my eyes. I know it's not for everyone and I know that feminists will see it as wrong but for us it felt right. I do think this is out of step with many husbands who REQUIRE they're wives to work. It was very rare for our kids to have friends with stay-at-home moms.