Quote from: Taka on September 04, 2014, 10:52:56 AM
hmm...

i'm thinking of something like how blue is blue whether or not you identify it, and how it will only be identified when it's among other colors. but you don't usually ask blue what color identity it has, it simply is that color.

so my gender is what i am.
and my gender identity is what i call it, in order to identify it as different from something else, or somewhat similar to another known gender identity.

if i'm still not making sense, i must be walking down a most strange and uncommon philosophical path. or i'm just not finding the right definitions for people to understand what i'm talking about.

this is basically what I was saying and makes sense. Gender/ gender identity is basically the same thing.

there are theories which say that we can only identify something by what it is. and we can group things by similarities to other things.

a person's gender can only ever be exactly what it is, and it is whether it's identified or not.

but when we start identifying, we can use a label like girl or boy, which both are very big groups defined by some very few features, really. mostly what genitals would be more natural for the person. but that isn't really the person's gender. the gender is definitely more complex, more of some thing, less of others. but man or woman as a gender identity, for simplicity's sake, can be rather practical.

is the kind of feeling i have about this.

it might be due to me not having a clear feeling of identification with either binary gender.
identifying myself is so difficult i don't even feel like trying.
but my gender still is.
so i don't really have any proper gender identity. like a color without a hexadecimal code.

Yes, the non binary perspective we share can also lend itself to a lack of clear definition.  I drive a hybrid car and sometimes feel like a sort of hybrid gender

I like hybrids, they make many colored roses.

Taka, I get what you mean, I just don't totally agree, and that is OK.

i saw your previous post a little late, kat.
it seems to be a matter of definitions, in a way.
and i might be defining identity differently from you.
my problem with the word is that it has two distinct meanings, but we still use only one word for both.

and when people talk about gender identity, it gets really difficult to know which type of gender identity they mean.
the gender identity that is unique to a person, or the gender they identify with or choose to identify as.

maybe i'm just weird about it, but i want some linguistic distinction between the two.

i've just decided that my own gender identity shall be known as 29A btw. just to have it identified properly.

29A works for me, after all, a rose is a rose, the label doesn't matter much.

and a tulip is a flower too.
but at least now i can say i have a gender identity, rather than an unidentified gender.

if only i'd realized earlier that it can be this simple.
all this questioning and trying to figure out whether i'm M or F, or in between or both.
but no, i'm simply 29A.
(hah. take that, gender police)

Quote from: LordKAT on August 30, 2014, 10:01:38 PM
Gender Identity = who I am.

Gender role = how I act.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 03, 2014, 05:20:49 PM
Gender presentation = how I communicate both of these

Yup.

I'm beginning to think that even that 3 way unpacking of gender doesn't do the complexities of the subject justice.

Love your avatar Taka although I think I hear sirens and see flashing lights

Dread Faery if they are offering doctoral degrees in gender studies at our major universities you know this subject really can be very complex.  

Quote from: LordKAT on August 30, 2014, 11:01:38 pm
Gender Identity = who I am.

Gender role = how I act.

You so cracked me up with the truth and simplicity of how a guy would bring it on down in 6 words

And now I learn I can defend a dissertation on the simple.   

All complex ideas have simple roots, but in the case of gender the roots go deep and are a fractal.  Both simple, and infinitely complex.  Gender roles and gender expression seem to be more to me than just a persona.  I think that gender identity is likewise more fluid.  I get all wrapped up and twisted around what is authentic and what is artificial.  Just when I think I understand myself, like a chimera, I seem to discover new and different components of the whole that is me.

I am not static, and neither is my gender identity, the gender role I fill, or the expression I give to both.  For decades I lived in a box, I was male, there could be no discussion or consideration of anything else.  I experienced my gender role as my identity.  And it almost killed me.  For some time, I have done all I can to open the box and become more authentic.  For a time that meant I was female, living as a woman.  But now, even that is incomplete.

I very much like this way of expressing things from Taka,

" my gender is different from that. it forms my identity, but it isn't the same as it.
my gender is a part of my body, or actually even worse. it's a part of the control center of my body.
it's identity on a much deeper level than how the word is normally used.

just like talking about sexual identity.
i don't have a sexual identity. i simply have a sexuality.
i'm attracted to some things, turn off by others. it isn't my identity, but it can shape my identity.

my gender identity is just the label i choose to try and identity my gender to others.
but my gender itself just is.
i doesn't define me as a person. it's simply one of those things that are me, inhabiting a different part of my brain than what my personality does."

We are human becomings, complex and interesting beings who are greater than the sum of our parts.  Those of us committed to living in an authentic way and without fear, are going to necessarily morph.  My gender, my personality is too big for a box and will not be so confined.  I love being a girl, but I am both he and she, Yin and Yang, body and spirit.  My gender identity is not defined by the gender role I am expressing, but neither is the gender role fully defined by my gender identity.  I am the chimera I alluded to earlier.  Many and none, all inclusive, as authentic as I can manage.  Makes for an adventure in living.

So Tessa, do you suppose the gender studies doctoral program at wherever university you referred to, accepts refugees from the computer science and engineering departments?

Fair Winds on a Lovely Day,

Julie

just adding a little more about my gender criminality.
in high school, i had a perfectly genuine female gender identity. i don't believe my gender was any more female than it is now, but i did identify as female. that identity wasn't a lie, but as i came to know myself better, i've changed my identity. not to male, though i identify as male in many places on the internet, but to an identity that i don't really expect most of society to understand. it's valid because it exists, even if it isn't legal in my country yet. and i doubt any country would make a special label just for me.

i doubt my gender ever was or will be anything other than what it is today.
but my identity might change yet again, as i learn more about myself. i choose how to identify, based on what i know and what i want, but i can't really choose my brain structure and gonads.