There are certainly a variety of intersex conditions that can result in a brain/body mismatch, but in the absence of any of these documented conditions (Klinefelters, PAIS, anything resulting in ambiguous genitalia, etc.) when an individual experiences dysphoria, do you believe that having gender dysphoria is a type of intersex condition in itself? 

Is it a kind of birth defect?

   

I personally have always thought of us being in the same class as intetsexed.

Just intersexed have said other wise and in a nasty way.

I feel I was born with a birth defect yes.

I would call us mentally intersexed at the very least.

I do. Biology and genetics is so complex.

I strongly suspect that being trans is indicative of having some sort of unclassified intersex condition that mainly affects brain development. The studies that suggest that MTFs and FTMs often have brain structures that either match their target gender, or else are intermediate between male and female, seem to me to be evidence of some sort of intersex development. There are several types of transgender people, so there are probably several intersex conditions involved. I also think that it is interesting that conditions like gynecomastia and infertility seem to be more common among trans people (at least anecdotally). That also suggests an intersex condition, even though many of us do not match the criteria for any currently diagnosed condition.

I was born with a birth condition.

Not sure I would call it a defect.

I like being transgender, and like the fact that it's given me perspectives that cisgender people can't have. I know few people see it this way, but it's my point of view.

I actually think trans folks are REALLY good for human culture. We force people to take a look at their gender and what it means and the limits they put on themselves because of it.

So I don't think I'm defective. I actually think I'm beneficial.

In most cases, probably.
I consider what I have to be a birth defect. It has impacted my quality of life too badly for me to consider it a neutral condition.

Many forget the brain is the largest sex organ we have so if the brain is programmed in one way but body develops another.

We all are humans and humans are all unique in there own ways.

We are humans.

Quote from: Liam Erik on September 06, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
I think it is absolutely an intersex condition.  I don't really understand why that's not said more.  I think people think of brains in an abstract way and forget that they are organs.

^This

Well I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if I get my organs checked out and they say that I have male and female reproductive organs.

There is scientific evidence that there can be a condition that could be described as intersexed in the brain. Some brain areas that are linked to body map and sexual identity are affected in the womb (mainly the hypothalamus region). It is not the case in all transpeople, AFAIK, so there are certainly also other possibilities to become trans*, like childhood experiences or other things later on in life, but at least for transsexuality there seems to be a certain number of people where this is the case. It has to do with hormonal influences on the brain in that phase of development. Estrogens, Progesterone and Testosterone have to be in the right balance, otherwise a mismatch or partial mismatch can happen at this stage of fetal development.

So funnily after all these years it seems that "good old Harry Benjamin" was right - he also described in his famous book transsexuality as something that is most likely caused by a form of intersexuality in the brain

Based on what I've read, research is showing that at least in theory, being transgender could be the result of hormone exposure before birth. Many (not all) trans people are aware of their gender by sometime around age 5. There's even plenty of 2D 4D finger digit ratio studies that help to back that up. I do think this accounts for a huge majority of trans people, which would be a definite yes. Both of these are certainly the case for me, and many others on this board.

However ...

There are some trans people who don't display the digit ratio distinctions, or who aren't aware until later in life that they're transgender or have transgender thoughts and tendencies. So I hesitate to make a blanket statement that, "Yes, being transgender is a form of intersex", because for some people this may not be why they are transgender.

As others have pointed out (...and I'm admittedly guilty of forgetting this myself a lot) the word transgender is technically an umbrella term classifying several different types of gender non conforming people, not just transsexuals like myself. So there could be any number of causes ranging from physical, to psychological, to environmental, exposure to drugs, and who knows what else. And all of that, as well as the above theoretical hormonal exposure before birth possibly causing changes to the brain mean that there's a huge range of reasons for why and just as many varied outcomes, which is why we use the umbrella term to try to simplify things.

In the end why isn't as important as how we live our lives, though.

Echoing others, I've been adamant since the beginning that "true" transsexualism is, at its core, an intersex condition. For years my fear of being perceived incorrectly made me most apprehensive of LGBT involvements aside from a few friends in whom I had confidence. I'm fine now simply considering myself a laid-back ally.

Quote from: Rachelicious on September 08, 2014, 08:53:13 PM
Echoing others, I've been adamant since the beginning that "true" transsexualism is, at its core, an intersex condition. For years my fear of being perceived incorrectly made me most apprehensive of LGBT involvements aside from a few friends in whom I had confidence. I'm fine now simply considering myself a laid-back ally.

What is "true" transsexualism?

Based on everything I know, this is an intersexed condition.  I think there are at least two causes and that there are two types of MTFs and at least one cause and one type of FTM. 

Jen


PS, not sure about what "true" transexualism is.

To be honest, whenever I see this topic come up, I tend to think of it as people trying to find justification for who they are. I don't really buy into it, although I did a bit at the beginning. But since, I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. Its not like most people would actually understand it anyway. And if you did know exactly what caused it, would it change what you are doing?  Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"

Quote from: Jaime R D on September 08, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
To be honest, whenever I see this topic come up, I tend to think of it as people trying to find justification for who they are. I don't really buy into it, although I did a bit at the beginning. But since, I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. Its not like most people would actually understand it anyway. And if you did know exactly what caused it, would it change what you are doing?  Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"

I threw this out there to see how other transpeople viewed themselves.  There is no scientific consensus as to how this occurs, and because of this, far too many people are fast to dismiss us as freaks, nut cases and perverts (and I'm sick of it).  In my thinking, what if one day, that it has been proven beyond a doubt that transsexualism is an intersex condition of the brain and is classified as a type of birth defect that often requires medical intervention.   The haters would no longer have a pot to piss in, insurance would be required to cover treatments, society would be more accepting and sympathetic, and it would always be illegal to discriminate against us.  That, IMHO, would beat the crap out of what we have going for us currently.  It would also be nice for society to finally view transphobes the same way as we do racists. 

Why it is that I am transgender is moot.  At the end of the day, I don't care if it was DES, XXY, THC, the hormones in the meat or the devil.  My brain needs estrogen and I will continue to take it no matter what.  Plus I totally love rocking a maxi skirt. 

And I believe we have a "cure".  It's called transition.  I just wish the rest of the world could wrap their heads around that one.

Quote from: Jill F on September 05, 2014, 08:32:25 PM
There are certainly a variety of intersex conditions that can result in a brain/body mismatch, but in the absence of any of these documented conditions (Klinefelters, PAIS, anything resulting in ambiguous genitalia, etc.) when an individual experiences dysphoria, do you believe that having gender dysphoria is a type of intersex condition in itself? 

Is it a kind of birth defect?

   

the question perhaps fudges the distinction between transgender and transsexual. If one defines the former is a broad term which encompasses all sorts of gender nonconformity, and the latter as the specific biological condition of having a "brain sex"  which is misaligned with the physical characteristics of one's body (whether or not the resulting dysphoria is manageable or traumatic or something in between) then I would agree wholeheartedly that the latter is a subset of the category "intersex conditions" as well as being subset of the umbrella category transgender.

However I would not agree that all the things that we classified as transgender could be considered as a physical intersex condition.

Quote from: Tammy Hope on September 08, 2014, 11:41:04 PM
the question perhaps fudges the distinction between transgender and transsexual. If one defines the former is a broad term which encompasses all sorts of gender nonconformity, and the latter as the specific biological condition of having a "brain sex"  which is misaligned with the physical characteristics of one's body (whether or not the resulting dysphoria is manageable or traumatic or something in between) then I would agree wholeheartedly that the latter is a subset of the category "intersex conditions" as well as being subset of the umbrella category transgender.

However I would not agree that all the things that we classified as transgender could be considered as a physical intersex condition.

Sorry, I realize now that I really should have used " having gender dysphoria" in place of the broader umbrella term "being transgender" in the topic heading.

I think the term "true" transsexualism is of course a bit of an unhappy description. But I think that there are different types of conditions that presently are labelled transsexualism and the umbrella-term transgender did not the best service to make this more clear but rather it seem that transgender and transsexual are now often just mixed up, thus including a lot more into the term transsexual than there was before.

The distinction in terms of a neurobiological cause is, that some people do seem to have that neurobiological difference and if it affects their brain body image (as described in the scientific articles by Ramachandran  (e.g. http://philpapers.org/rec/RAMOOP) ) an in these cases they have a strong body dysmorphia, a strong body dysphoria and are thus in some cases describes as "true transsexuals" because they are truely trans-sexed (they have a physical body condition related to their physical sex). This seems to go along with phantom body perceptions.

I personally think that there are other conditions than that - maybe in some perople the brain ich still changed but it mainly affected their gender identity, so they do seem physical changes of the body rather as a secondary remedy - they feel like they are of a certain gender but the body does not fit and to live in their felt gender they change the body. Then there are the people who really have a more later onset condition, a mismatch between the own actions and feeling and personality and the gender they live in, they seek a change in gender (social role) mostly, but have reservations about medical treatments and surgeries as they do not feel their body is wrong.

Sadly this sometimes leads to fights as some people stand up and openly claim it is not good to have surgeries and "mutilate healthy bodies" as in our times it is accepted to live in the desired gender without having surgeries - and others stand up and say that they want to change their bodies to match how they feel it should be (brain body map) and don't really care about the social role that much and then both try to project their own experiences on the others because they are all put under the laben "transsexual".

Quote from: Jaime R D on September 08, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. .... Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"

Well yes and no - I think to have an explanation would make it a lot easier to find a proper cure - to improve the medical care we can be given as then it is finally clear to the medical professions that it is not a psychological condition that has to somehow under the rule of an exception actually be treated with physical changes (usually phsychological conditions are ONLY treated psychologically or with medication). But then it becomes an intersex condition, a DSD and thus the acceptance within the medical community and hopefully also within the society would be changed slowly to really accept that we ARE of the gender/sex that we say we are and thus are just regular men or women in need of the best possible medical treatment to specifically cure us from the damages we have. On health insurance, without psychological gatekeeping, without the stories about "men becoming women" or "men wanting to be women".

Fo us ourselves - of course it is possible to eventually say "I dont care, I know who I am and thats ok", but the path to get there is harder if the cause is totally unknown - I personally dont tell anyone about my condition if I can avoid it because I dont want to be seen as a "guy who is now a woman". If it is clear that medically I am a woman but have a body that suffered a virilization, I would have less of an issue to tell that to others - because then it is a correct description, the other is not.