Quote from: Julia-Madrid on September 06, 2014, 05:23:35 AM

You've hit some very strong points, as I'll certainly agree that those two professions aren't exactly strong in alpha male types.  But I am not so sure whether cis women are under-represented due to social conditioning or brain affinity, if such a thing can be proven to exist.  A small spanner in your works: if those professions have fewer alpha males, shouldn't it be a less threatening / more attractive place for all women, cis or trans?

If you had all the data in front of you and looked at the forum post I linked above, you would see that -coincidence?- we have almost nobody here representing four personality types (all ES--) that make up about 48% of women.

For the most part we're Visionaries and Intellectuals, not Guardians or Creators. We see the world as it could be. It does not match us any other way. I don't see this as particularly hard to wrap one's head around.

I'd say that I love all the theorizing and alpha/beta type postulation, but with the breakthrough of empirical data I linked supporting WHY we are predisposed towards certain professions & ways of mindfulness, I actually don't

---
EDIT: Also, I find it sexist to label industries as typically male-dominated, particularly in tech or intellectual capacities. The fact that women are still breaking free from centuries of often normatively-incubated oppression does not undermine the fact that at the very highest levels we are just as cutting-edge competitive as anyone.

Quote from: Rachelicious on September 06, 2014, 06:46:23 AM
If you had all the data in front of you and looked at the forum post I linked above, you would see that -coincidence?- we have almost nobody here representing four personality types (all ES--) that make up about 48% of women.

For the most part we're Visionaries and Intellectuals, not Guardians or Creators. We see the world as it could be. It does not match us any other way. I don't see this as particularly hard to wrap one's head around.

I'd say that I love all the theorizing and alpha/beta type postulation, but with the breakthrough of empirical data I linked supporting WHY we are predisposed towards certain professions & ways of mindfulness, I actually don't

To be fair, I don't really think that either of these polls are in any way a breakthrough. It's hardly surprising that people who work with computers a lot find support from other people on their computer. Nor is it any way surprising that the people you find here in general are by nature introverts. I do agree that these two facts are highly related.

I personally find it interesting that there's many transwomen who have chosen a career not typically chosen by very many ciswomen at all. (Typically, that's not to say there's NONE, of course). I'd love to hear what our software and engineering girls have to say about this.

QuoteEDIT: Also, I find it sexist to label industries as typically male-dominated, particularly in tech or intellectual capacities. The fact that women are still breaking free from centuries of often normatively-incubated oppression does not undermine the fact that at the very highest levels we are just as cutting-edge competitive as anyone.

This I do agree with 100%. But there's still not very many women in these fields, relatively speaking, especially compared with the relatively large number of breakthroughs women have had in recent years in other fields. Do you have an opinion about why that is the case?

The turn this thread has taken reminds me a lot of a Forbes article I read a while back. http://www.forbes.com/sites/markfidelman/2012/06/05/heres-the-real-reason-there-are-not-more-women-in-technology/

This is a couple years old, but I think it's still relevant. Does anyone else agree? If so, how much does it or does it not apply to transwomen too?

Quote from: Jera on September 06, 2014, 07:26:31 AM
To be fair, I don't really think that either of these polls are in any way a breakthrough. It's hardly surprising that people who work with computers a lot find support from other people on their computer. Nor is it any way surprising that the people you find here in general are by nature introverts. I do agree that these two facts are highly related.

Fair enough, but it's empirical and has the *potential* to spark formal research that leads to a breakthrough, as opposed to formless philosophical projections that lead us nowhere. And in terms of MBTI, I would not use the word "introvert" in its jargon-usage to generalize about people here - doing so lends no appreciation to how the introverted functions that are actually at play manifest themselves.

Quote from: Jera on September 06, 2014, 07:26:31 AM
I personally find it interesting that there's many transwomen who have chosen a career not typically chosen by very many ciswomen at all. (Typically, that's not to say there's NONE, of course). I'd love to hear what our software and engineering girls have to say about this.

My particular program is around 15% female, which is selective, but far from none. Our poll results have 55% of about 140 of those who responded on Susans in a category of personality that ordinarily makes up 7% of everyone - one which is known to be uniquely gifted, intellectual, etc. Prone to computer use? Perhaps, but who isn't these days? Yes, it's completely interesting! But the mystery as to why has been dispelled.

Quote from: Jera on September 06, 2014, 07:26:31 AM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markfidelman/2012/06/05/heres-the-real-reason-there-are-not-more-women-in-technology/

This is a couple years old, but I think it's still relevant. Does anyone else agree? If so, how much does it or does it not apply to transwomen too?

People go into what interests them. Women generally have fewer social opportunities and peer resources in choosing tech compared to men - it can work out, but we have to be more driven by individual talent and motivation. Nobody is going to carry you. You have to want it.

One factor I cannot skip over is that many girls are raised straight to the ideals/path of mommyhood. Standards of how to properly raise a child are high in the 21st century to the point of requiring the resources & mindset of a fully mature individual, and if it is an option, there are too many women who will take it (for one reason or another) and be significantly held back from doing anything more meaningful with their lives.

I work in IT. I do the email tickets for one of the department's three clients.

Of all things, post transition I ended up working as the office administrator at a church

I do both construction and mechanical (car servicing and repairs) work on a self employed basis, mainly for friends and family as i get enough to keep me ticking over, some know im in transition some dont, i will probably end up working from home though when i get to the awkward stage in my transition, have wondered a few times about going back to college, but not really the right time at the moment, mum even suggested i trained in hair and beauty, mainly as im finding somewhere trans friendly to go, i think she felt i could then help others in my situation 

well last week i got accepted into a one year contract to a pharmacy in a hospital =] realy loving the work there and people are awesome and good =p

I work as a able seaman

I chose my field for the pay and conditions 180k for 6 months work isn't bad at all. Although it is a very physical job once I have accumulated the experience to train to be an officer, basically I will become a office worker with 360 degree views of the ocean at which point I will begin HRT.

Also helps as I'm in Thailand quite a bit so when I go there for SRS I will know my way around already.

Interestingly before choosing my current field I studied for 2 years to be a system administrator.

Kaylee

Quote from: Jera on September 06, 2014, 07:26:31 AM
I personally find it interesting that there's many transwomen who have chosen a career not typically chosen by very many ciswomen at all. (Typically, that's not to say there's NONE, of course). I'd love to hear what our software and engineering girls have to say about this.

I have studied electrical engineering and computer science. I think that in my case it was both nature and nurture. I was strongly influenced by my family because my grandfather and mother was both engineers working in electronic development/IT. And I didn't live with my father, he left when I was born. So I was raised mainly by those people. And from early age I was confronted with technology field. It was very interesting and I loved science and especially electronics. I loved the feeling that I can create something new, that I can convert my ideas into real word thing.
Now when I am working I am doing mainly embedded devices. And the reason why I like it so much is that I can build something and give it "life"(write firmware for example). And when I see that it is working well and helping people to make life easier it is the best feeling. It is fulfilling that I can leave something real in this word behind myself, I feel that my life is not useless. I don't know about any other career that would fulfill my creative mind.

I must say that another advantage is that all male BS disappeared when I entered university. During elementary and high school I was always confronted with macho men who made my school life a hell. In science field the concentration of those people(who I really hate) are much much lower. It was relief for me...

I always wonder why the majority of cis female are not interested in those sciences, because there are many intelligent and tolerant people. And also it is field where you only need an intellectual power(which is gender neutral), any physical strength or another more male oriented skills are useless. So I still wonder...

Quote from: Jera on September 06, 2014, 07:26:31 AM
I personally find it interesting that there's many transwomen who have chosen a career not typically chosen by very many ciswomen at all. (Typically, that's not to say there's NONE, of course). I'd love to hear what our software and engineering girls have to say about this.

We may be women, but we were socialized as male.  Elementary aged girls are just as likely as boys to report enjoying math and science.  I think it's something like 80% or so.  But by university only 30% of women still say they enjoy those subjects.

I believe there is some evolutionary biology involved, but society certainly plays a big part in it.  Society tells women to study the humanities, and the beauty culture tells them to focus on looking pretty (evolutionary biology figures into this as well...but that's another topic). 

But having said that, I work in finance and accounting, where women are actually very well represented until you reach the highest levels of management.  I found a recent study that breaks it down further.

Quote from: katiej on September 07, 2014, 01:11:08 AM

I believe there is some evolutionary biology involved, but society certainly plays a big part in it.  Society tells women to study the humanities, and the beauty culture tells them to focus on looking pretty (evolutionary biology figures into this as well...but that's another topic). 

I think there is some truth in this. For example I can see it in media every day. It is pushing women towards beauty standards and men towards creative tasks. And very often women are pictured as "stupid" and not mature beings and that is really degrading. And also it is hard for a woman to become an engineer because it will make her different from majority and it needs strong mind to withstand the pressure. For men it is a standard set by society and media to be creative and leader...

For thousands of years men hunted and women gathered.  Men protected the family, and women nurtured the family.  Men had to demonstrate to prospective mates that they'd be a good provider and protector, while women had to demonstrate that they had good genes and would be able to propagate the species.

We're not fighting for our survival against woolly mammoths and approaching glaciers anymore.  So some of those instincts are obsolete.  But the evolutionary biology means that we are still wired that way to some extent.

This is one reason why we as trans people have such a hard time fitting into the normal societal role of our assigned gender.

Quote from: Rachelicious on September 06, 2014, 06:46:23 AM
EDIT: Also, I find it sexist to label industries as typically male-dominated, particularly in tech or intellectual capacities. The fact that women are still breaking free from centuries of often normatively-incubated oppression does not undermine the fact that at the very highest levels we are just as cutting-edge competitive as anyone.

I totally agree!  When I had my own software and systems company I used to actively seek out women programmers/engineers.  I was always swamped by male candidates.  During the 1999-2003 period I was able to recruit a couple, but after that they totally disappeared as candidates.  And partly that seemed to be that for a brief period of time it was trendy to go into a career in software, so a few more women chose it, but then the trend changed, although I have no idea why. 

Perhaps as transwoman our perception of women in the workplace is skewed, as we "live both worlds" and can see both sides.  For that reason, from a formerly male perspective, we see cis women as total equals, or even as role models.  Certainly I was totally in awe and lightly jealous of the highly competent female engineers with whom I was able to work.  But they had to work harder, and still do.

Quote from: Jera on September 06, 2014, 07:26:31 AM

I personally find it interesting that there's many transwomen who have chosen a career not typically chosen by very many ciswomen at all. (Typically, that's not to say there's NONE, of course). I'd love to hear what our software and engineering girls have to say about this.

You mean, why did I choose a career in software (knowing that I was transgender)?  Hummm, I guess fundamentally because of its creativity, both at a programming level and at a graphical level.  I used to love making "beautiful things" both logically and visually.  A secondary reason was for its problem solving component, where you are presented with a requirement and have to develop an algorithm of some sort.  A third reason was for its collaborative nature, since software these days is a highly collaborative activity.

All of these, in my opinion, are 100% within the intellectual reach of all women, and moreover should be attractive to women.  Software, too, is an activity that could (with a little difficulty) be interwoven with child care and family responsibilities.

So, distilling this into my view of why this career appears to be attractive to many transgender women and few cis women, I think I have to agree that it's a question, as the Forbes article states, of too few women choosing these careers, rather than that we, as transgender women, are over represented in these areas.   

Thank you Rachel and Jera for a very interesting side journey on this thread!

Julia

Quote from: cass on September 06, 2014, 12:16:49 PM
I do both construction and mechanical (car servicing and repairs) work on a self employed basis, mainly for friends and family as i get enough to keep me ticking over, some know im in transition some dont, i will probably end up working from home though when i get to the awkward stage in my transition, have wondered a few times about going back to college, but not really the right time at the moment, mum even suggested i trained in hair and beauty, mainly as im finding somewhere trans friendly to go, i think she felt i could then help others in my situation

Pre-transition I was a car mechanic and while the pay was good and I enjoyed it, it really is a totally male dominated field. Woman mechanics are probably less than .01%? Not talking about girls who can work on their own cars, doing it as a profession. I've honestly never met one and I live in a very large metro area. I was getting older and was tired of doing such physical work anyway, it -really- tears up your hands etc. I was always good with computers and graphic design so this church job was a perfect fit for me. The pay is close, it's a lot less physically demanding and is in some way more fun. I know some people would say I did this to fit into a stereotype, but being a woman mechanic really would be putting yourself under the microscope given how rare that is. Construction as well.

Hi ladies.  I've been working as a mechanic full time since 2000.  Been working on cars since I was 15.   I feel the same as Stephe.  But at this time I don't have much of a choice but to continue in the field.  It doesn't pay all that well at this time.  Having a hard time living pay check to pay check. It's made it hard on having the proper HRT .

I wish I would've pursued that computer industry when I was younger, but my passion for cars was greater as I look back at it. I work on VW, Audi, Porsche, BMW, MB. But, it's not glorious.  I work for a small independent shop that is in a bad neighborhood, bad building, and management that is cutting it's teeth.  We aren't as efficient as we should be.  So that means less money to go around.  #frustrated.

But it's rewarding when I get ma'mmed at work by customers

monica93304 I can relate to your chosen field, I bounced back and fourth between being an RV tech/trailer mechanic and driving tractor trailers for over 20 years. Now I drive for a very large company in the aero space field, I started as a forklift operator through a temp service, a few days ago the big boss came to me and said, it has come to his attention that I use to drive over the road, then he asked me if I wanted to become a company driver...I jumped at the chance to make more money. I also run a small mobile mechanic business on the weekends along with a pressure washing business and do carpentry work on the side. Sounds like a lot? I started doing side work as a necessity to keep my head above water. My side work is mostly during the spring, summer and fall, last winter I didn't do much of anything. I am not setting the world on fire, sometimes I go for 4 to 5 weeks without any side work. I had to readjust my way of life from grocery shopping to spending habits. I feel your pain.

I am a licensed Mechanical Engineer and work at a Large Healthcare Enterprise. I manage the physical plants, Operating Engineers, purchase utilities and perform all aspects of capital equipment and energy engineering project submission, management and reporting.

Currently a Paramedic and student. I hope to have the gender marker changed before Medical school but we will see.

Worked as corporate accountant before retiting.

I clicked other, only cause I didn't see media until after I had voted.

When I was in high school, I took a year of photography, it was the only reason I stayed in school for that year, towards the end if the year after coming out I quit high school and went & did my VCE (SAT's) in a tafe.
After TAFE I went on to study photography full time for 5 years, while I loved urbanscapes, landscapes and a little bit of art, I knew there was no real work there, so really focused in of photojournalism.

I won a prize and got a job for one of the major news companies here and did that for a few years, I loved it, I was on sport, so it was easy work and got to cover a heap of major sporting events. Then moved me to crime/general after a while and I hated it.
I was turning up at 4am to car crashes, murders, bashings/stabbings and so on. One day while sitting outside a court waiting for a double murdered a friend called me and said that there was a photolab for sale, I should check it out cause she knew how much I was hating my work.
Within 3 months I bought the lab with money that was left to me when my dad died, quit working for the paper and ran that until earlier this year when I was a little bit unhappy with worrying about money so often. I sold it (for more than what I bought it for).
I'm now not working, for the first time since school, enjoying life, happy as larry, own my my house (don't own the bank a cent on my house), own a rental and may never work full time again.