Given the vast breadth of experiences and motivations, I'm hesitant to describe being transgender as intersex. If the focus is narrowed to transsexual people then I'm still incredibly hesitant since, after reviewing relevant studies that I can find, it's my personal belief that the aetiology of gender incongruence hasn't been ascertained. I appreciate that a lot of trans people believe that neuroanatomical evidence has demonstrated a biological origin but I've personally found such work deeply flawed or insufficient to justify generalised claims. Flowing from that, I don't feel the extant evidence I've seen justifies me using the intersex label.

Most importantly for me, I'm also hesitant to accept applying the term at present because I don't want to risk harming the intersex community by appropriating or erasing their unique experiences and challenges. While I understand that appeals to nature are powerful, if illogical, and that it could be wonderful to appease cisnormative society by ascribing gender identity differences to a cause definitively outside of anybody's conscious control, I worry that some dyadic trans people might use intersex people as a political tool. Specifically, I'm concerned that intersex experiences and existence are used to appeal to society's overarching biological essentialism and that by doing so the dyadic trans community can sometimes use and speak over the intersex community in an objectionable manner.

For me, it has potential to be somewhat akin to the way in which the unique suffering of trans women of colour is removed from context and generalised to the whole trans community by some activists. Alternatively, I'd suggest it could be seen as similar to the way in which some organisations use the unique discrimination faced by trans people as a persuasive tool by generalising it to 'LGBT' people in campaigning that overwhelmingly serves the G.

Of course, I understand that my worries could be absurd or excessively cautious. Equally, I'm not saying that dyadic trans people and intersex, cis or trans, people are wildly divergent either since I believe there's significant overlap. The rights of both groups seem to focus on gaining the right to bodily integrity, personal autonomy, medical treatment with informed consent, and liberation from the imposition of deeply cruel models of gender or sex.

As for whether I see being transgender as a birth defect, a large part of me wants to agree that I am defective since being trans has caused so much pain from childhood onwards. However, another part believes that the harm has largely, but not entirely, come from external sources that imposed gender and sex assignment as destiny rather than my own identity so it is society that is defective for placing those baseless concepts above creating maximum happiness, not me.

Similarly, I think trans people are vital or precious rather than defective since I believe persistent outliers undermine systems that can't explain them, trans people challenge prevailing thought by requiring the creation of a new paradigm that embraces us. Flowing from that, I hope trans people that choose to engage in activism or to live openly will be vital in helping to liberate humanity from oppressive gender and sex constructs because I'd argue our very existence proves that many dominant assumptions and expectations are fundamentally wrong. That's probably a bit too optimistic, isn't it? Hehe!

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 08, 2014, 09:11:23 PM
What is "true" transsexualism?

Simply distinguishing the term from transgender. Surely you didn't think the quote marks were just decoration? 

Quote from: anjaq on September 09, 2014, 05:06:17 AM
I think the term "true" transsexualism is of course a bit of an unhappy description. But I think that there are different types of conditions that presently are labelled transsexualism and the umbrella-term transgender did not the best service to make this more clear but rather it seem that transgender and transsexual are now often just mixed up, thus including a lot more into the term transsexual than there was before.

^ This. I transitioned on the early cusp of LGBT becoming a known acronym, and early in transition I felt the emergence of the label transgender as an uncomfortably impinging umbrella term under which, as an intersex condition, I fit only to the extent of physiological circumstance, not by identity. Hence my use of the term "true" to denote the polarism of people whose identity fits strictly into the binary rather than non-binary.

I'm convinced that in the future transsexualism will actually be recognized as an intersex condition, and that this will destigmatize / ease transition and improve the quality of living for all transgender people as the validity and perhaps etiology of gender identity gains more widespread acceptance.

WGAF? Because people with very polar genders + gender dysphoria are the most obvious and easy-to-grasp example of gender identity's innateness. Be mindful, surely on the heels of this would come greater acceptance for non-binary identities.

Argue away. My views have not changed in a decade and are unlikely to change from some cynical forum post that doesn't even cite research.

A gay friend once told me, "do you think I want to be this way?" He enjoys it because he has embraced the lifestyle but he said that he thinks it's weird that anyone would think that people want to live a lifestyle where they are constantly ridiculed, harassed or even have violent crimes committed against them.

A "true transsrxual", would be like Kim Petris, or Jazz.  These are the ones who seek out surgery as young and fast as possible.  They would be ether level 5 or 6 on the Benjamin scale.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale

Quote from: Emily King on September 09, 2014, 08:28:02 AM
A "true transsrxual", would be like Kim Petris, or Jazz.  These are the ones who seek out surgery as young and fast as possible.  They would be ether level 5 or 6 on the Benjamin scale.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_scale

I wouldn't limit it to just them. There are many people who for whatever reason had to keep themselves non-transitioned until later in life and unfortunately have to delay it.

I think it's dangerous to assign a label "true" because what is "true" anyway? Jowelle DeSouza transitioned at 19 and she simply refuses to talk about her past, I mean to the point where it simply does not exist. And she's not stealth or anything, she is very much out.

In many cases young transition is enabled by parenting and society. Without those someone will be pretty much "straightened out" until their life situation accommodates transition. This is where I am, by the way.

Quote from: ImagineKate on September 09, 2014, 08:58:09 AM
I wouldn't limit it to just them. There are many people who for whatever reason had to keep themselves non-transitioned until later in life and unfortunately have to delay it.

* raises hand* I'm 33. I've been aware that I felt like I'm living the wrong life since I was 5. I've even been aware that I actually think differently from men and often think and agree more often with women for about as long a time. However, I only started dealing with being transgender about a year ago. Why?

1. Because I grew up in a family with a long history going back hundreds of years of being very conservative, religious, and military. I learned young not to talk about it and to fall in formation.

2. Because I had absolutely no idea that there was anything I could realistically do about it until about 3 years ago, and like most people my age until recently, I thought transgender people where like what I saw in movies growing up which isn't the case. When I realized that I'm not crazy and that there are things I can actually do, I was terrified to actually do anything because of:

3. I am married, have a kid, am not working while I go to college so that I can take care of my daughter when I'm not in class, and because of #1.

Quote from: ImagineKate on September 09, 2014, 08:58:09 AM
I think it's dangerous to assign a label "true" because what is "true" anyway? Jowelle DeSouza transitioned at 19 and she simply refuses to talk about her past, I mean to the point where it simply does not exist. And she's not stealth or anything, she is very much out.

Yeah ... I'm not sure I get the term true. I don't think the original poster is trying to be mean or anything. I think they're trying to be specific about a particular type of transgender person (which is important to clarify because there are different types of transgender people since the term is an umbrella term).

Quote from: ImagineKate on September 09, 2014, 08:58:09 AM
In many cases young transition is enabled by parenting and society. Without those someone will be pretty much "straightened out" until their life situation accommodates transition. This is where I am, by the way.

Yeah this here is how I see things. It seems to me that a lot of people who are in their teens and early 20s, and in some cases even younger, are far more aware of their options than I was at that age, so the younger generations are transitioning earlier than I am. Part of that's because parents are more knowledgeable on the subject too, I think, and ones who aren't are able to find information a lot easier than my parents and myself would have been able to do even in the 1990s. And while teenagers and kids are still cruel, I get the feeling there's more of them that are understanding about LGBT issues as time goes on, making things easier for younger people to transition.

When I was in high school in the late 90s I imagine it just wouldn't have been possible to transition at all in high school. And of course, that's still relying on parents being supportive, which they aren't always ... which will almost certainly cause some to have to wait until they are on their own, and financially capable of transitioning themselves without losing their job ... which means they're going to have to wait.

Quote from: Jaime R D on September 08, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
To be honest, whenever I see this topic come up, I tend to think of it as people trying to find justification for who they are. I don't really buy into it, although I did a bit at the beginning. But since, I've learned that who really cares, you are who you are and you don't need justification or really much of an explanation for it. Its not like most people would actually understand it anyway. And if you did know exactly what caused it, would it change what you are doing?  Are any of you hoping for a "cure?"

The other explanation about how it would help society understand is where I would like to see this go.

Remember, there are actual diseases that were thought of to be brought about by lifestyle choices. AIDS/HIV for example, was thought of as a disease for gay men, so if you were gay you didn't have to worry about it. However, when famous people like Magic Johnson were infected, society started to realize that maybe this isn't something we should shun and run away from, that we need to deal with it.

Transgender is something I would like society to understand better. I believe that finding out its root cause is something that would help society understand better. It's not really my fault I am this way. Where I am going is my choice, but what is driving me is not.

This subject is poorly defined because:

1. What is "intersex"?
2. What is "transgender"?

The only studies that have been collected thus far are that of transsexuals and they do not represent the entirety of the transgender spectrum. Similarly, intersex is a condition that is traditionally defined as in having a chromosomal defect which results in sexual development that falls outside the expected norm. That someone can be born intersex and be transgender proves that they are not necessarily at all related as in both being intersex for the same reason someone can be born with various kinds of defects and these defects must not be related to though may appear similar.

I know some want to claim that transgender is intersex but I think that is a naive and narrow way of understanding transgender and the transgender experience.

Quote from: Lonicera on September 09, 2014, 06:16:10 AM
Given the vast breadth of experiences and motivations, I'm hesitant to describe being transgender as intersex. If the focus is narrowed to transsexual people then I'm still incredibly hesitant since, after reviewing relevant studies that I can find, it's my personal belief that the aetiology of gender incongruence hasn't been ascertained. I appreciate that a lot of trans people believe that neuroanatomical evidence has demonstrated a biological origin but I've personally found such work deeply flawed or insufficient to justify generalised claims. Flowing from that, I don't feel the extant evidence I've seen justifies me using the intersex label.

Most importantly for me, I'm also hesitant to accept applying the term at present because I don't want to risk harming the intersex community by appropriating or erasing their unique experiences and challenges. While I understand that appeals to nature are powerful, if illogical, and that it could be wonderful to appease cisnormative society by ascribing gender identity differences to a cause definitively outside of anybody's conscious control, I worry that some dyadic trans people might use intersex people as a political tool. Specifically, I'm concerned that intersex experiences and existence are used to appeal to society's overarching biological essentialism and that by doing so the dyadic trans community can sometimes use and speak over the intersex community in an objectionable manner.

For me, it has potential to be somewhat akin to the way in which the unique suffering of trans women of colour is removed from context and generalised to the whole trans community by some activists. Alternatively, I'd suggest it could be seen as similar to the way in which some organisations use the unique discrimination faced by trans people as a persuasive tool by generalising it to 'LGBT' people in campaigning that overwhelmingly serves the G.

Of course, I understand that my worries could be absurd or excessively cautious. Equally, I'm not saying that dyadic trans people and intersex, cis or trans, people are wildly divergent either since I believe there's significant overlap. The rights of both groups seem to focus on gaining the right to bodily integrity, personal autonomy, medical treatment with informed consent, and liberation from the imposition of deeply cruel models of gender or sex.

As for whether I see being transgender as a birth defect, a large part of me wants to agree that I am defective since being trans has caused so much pain from childhood onwards. However, another part believes that the harm has largely, but not entirely, come from external sources that imposed gender and sex assignment as destiny rather than my own identity so it is society that is defective for placing those baseless concepts above creating maximum happiness, not me.

Similarly, I think trans people are vital or precious rather than defective since I believe persistent outliers undermine systems that can't explain them, trans people challenge prevailing thought by requiring the creation of a new paradigm that embraces us. Flowing from that, I hope trans people that choose to engage in activism or to live openly will be vital in helping to liberate humanity from oppressive gender and sex constructs because I'd argue our very existence proves that many dominant assumptions and expectations are fundamentally wrong. That's probably a bit too optimistic, isn't it? Hehe!

Also this post so much. I think a lot of people who make biological appeals completely forget the power dynamics at play when we try to figure which version of the truth is THE TRUTH. Of course I feel I wish I could have been born with the right chromosomal makeup but also being borth with an actual birth defect, I do not see my trangender nature a birth defect in the same way my birth defect is actually a defect. There's nothing inherently defective about me, it just doesn't fit who I think I deep down should be, though of course it is very unfortunate I am not. By body is however, not defect in any way. It works and functions just fine.

Transsexual? Yes. Transsexual people have what is essentially an intersex experience. Consider those who want to make absolutely no references now or in the future to any gender-incongruent identity, who know very early on who they are, etc. There's no mystery with such people. They did not go from one gender to another, they always were their true gender innately, even if hiding behind pre-transition facades that grew so large as to hear it as barely a whisper.

Transgender? Not necessarily. People used to know "transsexual" and what it meant - the savvy even differentiated the word from ->-bleeped-<-, drag queen, etc. But these days the word "transgender" is what flies around the media, and it makes things difficult, because often the media lumps a transsexual under the transgender umbrella, and in other cases, the meaning often becomes vague to laypeople. It's a word that doesn't connote a fixed meaning or experience, a specific origin or destination, which is why TS people like to be clear about their identity one way or the other.

Quote from: Rachelicious on September 10, 2014, 06:02:39 AM
Transsexual? Yes. Transsexual people have what is essentially an intersex experience. Consider those who want to make absolutely no references now or in the future to any gender-incongruent identity, who know very early on who they are, etc. There's no mystery with such people. They did not go from one gender to another, they always were their true gender innately, even if hiding behind pre-transition facades that grew so large as to hear it as barely a whisper.

Transgender? Not necessarily. People used to know "transsexual" and what it meant - the savvy even differentiated the word from ->-bleeped-<-, drag queen, etc. But these days the word "transgender" is what flies around the media, and it makes things difficult, because often the media lumps a transsexual under the transgender umbrella, and in other cases, the meaning often becomes vague to laypeople. It's a word that doesn't connote a fixed meaning or experience, a specific origin or destination, which is why TS people like to be clear about their identity one way or the other.

The medical and clinical definition of TS is no longer as obvious as it used to be since nowadays even people who do not fit the obvious TS experience is given TS as a diagnosis. It questions what TS actually is and what it means.

I think it's too complex to put people into a particular box. This is why there is a spectrum. What I am realizing is that we are extremely diverse. I never really paid attention to gender fluid and androgynous people. I always figured they were gay or transsexual. Boy was I wrong lol.

I don't think that "intersex" is going to be confined to people who have unusual chromosomes or ambiguous genitals.There is a huge mental component and much of it is nature, not nurture.

Transgender being an umbrella term - I do think it's a bit broad. I also think that LGBT is very broad, but I understand that for civil rights and unity it helps. But I will be honest, I'm not gay, no desire to be. It doesn't really bother me when other people are but it's not me at all. Maybe when HRT does its magic I might feel differently.

Quote from: ImagineKate on September 10, 2014, 07:11:32 AM
I think it's too complex to put people into a particular box. This is why there is a spectrum. What I am realizing is that we are extremely diverse. I never really paid attention to gender fluid and androgynous people. I always figured they were gay or transsexual. Boy was I wrong lol.

I don't think that "intersex" is going to be confined to people who have unusual chromosomes or ambiguous genitals.There is a huge mental component and much of it is nature, not nurture.

The problem is when someone experiences themselves as transgender and is also born as intersex. Then what is it? Because we cannot quantify social aspects it tends to get ignored over the biological cause discourse which I think is extremely flawed and fallacious. Which is to say that if there is a social cause it does not mean "it's in your head", it's more complex than that, but as with everything human body it's an interplay. You may be genetically predisposed but it doesn't mean you'll turn out transgender and similarly, someone who is not genetically predisposed could also turn out transgender. It is extremely simplistic to only look at biology for cues though it may of course feel "safe" due to currently being seen as more legitimate.

I personally think it should be considered a type of intersex condition. I mean somehow someway during brain development in the womb, wires got crossed someway and shorted out the male thinking in me and boosted the female thinking. I mean yeah sure, depression and anxiety are both psychological conditions but sometimes it takes an MD to ease it or cure it. Plus depression and anxiety can effect your health and GID can cause depression and anxiety.

I mean we might not have been born with ambiguous genitals, everything maybe normal for our birth gender except the brain. Like a few have said the brain is an organ and probably the most important one. As for the animal kingdom, I don't know of any other animal that has sex as a means of enjoyment. Most of the time it can be a violent affair but instinct driven only. Humans think about it and it is more than just instinctual for us. So our brains seem to be wired directly to our gender and sexuality. Most animals only mate because it is instinctually driven and the same drive is somewhat in us with pheromones and so on but we do it mostly for total enjoyment. I will almost bet that no other species goes around thinking about sex as much as we do or are aware of the differences in gender that we humans are. When female dogs come in heat then the males will try to spread there genetic material, but when the female isn't in heat, dogs are just dogs with no need to have sex without the female being in heat. Yeah I know about the humping and so on but that is more of dominance behavior instead of an actual sexual behavior.

Quote from: Jess42 on September 10, 2014, 08:34:50 AM
Most animals only mate because it is instinctually driven and the same drive is somewhat in us with pheromones and so on but we do it mostly for total enjoyment. I will almost bet that no other species goes around thinking about sex as much as we do or are aware of the differences in gender that we humans are.

Actually, a lot of animals experience sexual pleasure and arousal and may use sex as a form of intimacy only.

I'm struggling to find anything else meaningful to respond to. The mind is part of the body, thus a mismatch between the mind and the body is an intersex experience.

Can we please lock this thread?  I'm sorry I ever brought it up.

Quote from: Jill F on September 10, 2014, 04:57:45 PM
Can we please lock this thread?  I'm sorry I ever brought it up.

I was going to say something else but according to your wishes of wanting in locked I won't. But personally I think it is a very legitimate question and really needs to be looked into.

Quote from: Ephemeral on September 09, 2014, 11:00:55 AM
This subject is poorly defined because:

1. What is "intersex"?
2. What is "transgender"?

The only studies that have been collected thus far are that of transsexuals and they do not represent the entirety of the transgender spectrum. Similarly, intersex is a condition that is traditionally defined as in having a chromosomal defect which results in sexual development that falls outside the expected norm. That someone can be born intersex and be transgender proves that they are not necessarily at all related as in both being intersex for the same reason someone can be born with various kinds of defects and these defects must not be related to though may appear similar.

I know some want to claim that transgender is intersex but I think that is a naive and narrow way of understanding transgender and the transgender experience.

I think your hypnosis also holds flaws. You as society looks at everything in black or white. Who is to say that the "Tran* aspects does not manifest before the inter sex condition as society calls it only based on genital.

Society wants us to fit there rules and if they are just outside in the gray area they want them dismissed.

Sorry I for one after reaching all I could and my own feelings I have came to the conclusion in society that I was born of a IS condition and was forced the Tran* path because that is the label society says I must fit.

Labels is why there is so much hate in this world.

We are all born of nature and are humans.

Quote from: mrs izzy on September 10, 2014, 05:06:45 PM
I think your hypnosis also holds flaws. You as society looks at everything in black or white. Who is to say that the "Tran* aspects does not manifest before the inter sex condition as society calls it only based on genital.

Society wants us to fit there rules and if they are just outside in the gray area they want them dismissed.

Sorry I for one after reaching all I could and my own feelings I have came to the conclusion in society that I was born of a IS condition and was forced the Tran* path because that is the label society says I must fit.

Labels is why there is so much hate in this world.

We are all born of nature and are humans.

There is not one thing in your statement mrs izzy that I can disagree with. I think it is spot on.

Topic locked per OP request.