I got this in mail from HRC who commented: During this entire campaign to win an inclusive ENDA, we have been guided by the principle of trying to achieve the end result the fastest way possible.  Without question, that result has been—and continues to be—an inclusive ENDA that covers the entire GLBT community.  We will continue to use that as our benchmark as we move forward in this process.
 
Unfortunately, we now know what we're facing.  The decision has been made, according to statements from Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Congressman Frank issued this afternoon—the House will consider a version of ENDA that does not include gender identity.

This is not what any of us wanted, and certainly not what we've been fighting for.   But, it has been made clear that the House leadership and bill sponsors are moving forward with a non-inclusive ENDA even without the full support of our community.  They view this as the best opportunity they will have this year to help the largest number of people—and have stated that they do not intend to miss this opportunity.

Passing an inclusive ENDA is the right thing to do for our community, our economy and our country.  However, we're facing a stark reality. 

House leadership and the bill's sponsors very firmly believe that if the House votes on an employment non-discrimination bill without gender identity, that legislation will pass—again, it will pass even without the support of the GLBT organizations.

After trying everything at our disposal to change this outcome, we are just beginning to come to terms with what that means. 

Since 2004, the Human Rights Campaign's policy has been to only support civil rights legislation that is inclusive of gender identity. That's why we fought tirelessly for and won Congressional approval for a fully inclusive hate crimes bill.  We've been fighting to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act for more than a decade.  The breaking news that the House has decided to move forward on a non-discrimination bill that is not inclusive of gender identity is devastating.  The Human Rights Campaign remains dedicated to the fight for full equality for our entire community and, in light of this new reality, continues to consult with members of Congress and our lobbyists to determine how we can achieve that goal.

This has been a long battle.  HRC first started the quest for ENDA in 1994.  We've been pushing for an inclusive bill since 2004.  Within two weeks, ENDA could pass the House for the first time in history, but not as an inclusive bill.

For continuous updates please visit the HRC blog at www.hrcbackstory.org

STATEMENT OF BARNEY FRANK ON ENDA

Being in the legislative minority is easy – pulling together to block bad things does not require a lot of agonizing over tough decisions.  Being in the majority is a mixed blessing.  On the one hand, we have the ability to move forward in a positive way on important public policy goals.  Detracting from that is the fact that it is never possible for us at any given time to get everything that we would like, and so we have to make difficult choices.  But it is important to remember that the good part of this greatly outweighs the bad.  Going from a situation in which all we can do is to prevent bad things from happening to one in which we have to decide exactly how much good is achievable and what strategic choices we must make to get there is a great advance.

The current manifestation of this is the difficult set of decisions we face regarding the Employment Non-Discrimination Act.  We are on the verge of an historic victory that supporters of civil rights have been working on for more than thirty years:  the passage for the first time in American history by either house of Congress of legislation declaring it illegal to discriminate against people in employment based on their sexual orientation.  Detracting from the sense of celebration many of us feel about that is regret that under the current political situation, we do not have sufficient support in the House to include in that bill explicit protection for people who are transgender.  The question facing us – the LGBT community and the tens of millions of others who are active supporters of our fight against prejudice – is whether we should pass up the chance to adopt a very good bill because it has one major gap.  I believe that it would be a grave error to let this opportunity to pass a sexual orientation nondiscrimination bill go forward, not simply because it is one of the most important advances we'll have made in securing civil rights for Americans in decades, but because moving forward on this bill now will also better serve the ultimate goal of including people who are transgender than simply accepting total defeat today.

When the bill banning sexual orientation discrimination was first introduced by Bella Abzug and Paul Tsongas more than thirty years ago, it was a fairly remote hope.  Over time because of a good deal of work, education of the general public, and particularly the decision by tens of millions of gay and lesbian people over that time to be honest about our sexual orientation, we have finally reached the point where we have a majority in the House ready to pass this bill.  Those of us who are sponsoring it had hoped that we could also include in the prohibition discrimination based on gender identity.  This is a fairly recent addition to the fight, and part of the problem we face is that while there have been literally decades of education of the public about the unfairness of sexual orientation discrimination and the inaccuracy of the myths that perpetuated it, our educational efforts regarding gender identity are much less far along, and given the prejudices that exist, face a steeper climb.

We introduced legislation opposing sexual orientation discrimination with explicit inclusion of gender identity for the first time this year.  Earlier this session under leadership of Speaker Pelosi, we were able to get through the House a hate crimes bill that provided protection against crimes of violence and property damage for lesbian, gay and bisexual people and people who are transgender.  There was some initial resistance to the inclusion of transgender people but a very organized effort on the part of Congresswoman Baldwin, who took a major role in this, myself, and the Democratic leadership allowed us to overcome it, with the support of some of our Republican colleagues. 

We then began the work on passing a transgender inclusive ENDA.  I was optimistic at first that we could do this, although I knew it would be hard.  One of the problems I have found over the years of discussing this is an unwillingness on the part of many, including leaders in the transgender community, to acknowledge a fact:  namely that there is more resistance to protection for people who are transgender than for people who are gay, lesbian and bisexual.  This is not a good fact, but ignoring bad facts is a bad way to get legislation passed.  I have for some time been concerned that people in the transgender leadership were underestimating the difficulty we faced in a broadly inclusive bill being adopted.

Still this seemed to me an effort very worth trying, and, when I testified before the Education and Labor Committee on ENDA I spent much of my time explicitly addressing the need to include transgender people.  In fact, I believe I spent more time on that than any other witness.  Sadly, as the time approached for the vote to be taken in the Committee, we encountered a good deal of resistance.  The great majority of Democrats remained committed to this, but with Republicans overwhelmingly likely to be opposed – even on hate crimes on the critical motion to recommit we were able to retain only nine Republican supporters out of two hundred Republican Members – it became clear that an amendment offered by Republicans either to omit the transgender provision altogether or severely restrict it in very obnoxious ways would pass.

Responding thoughtfully to this requires people to accept facts.  Some have tried to deny this unpleasant reality.  The Democratic leadership, which is in complete sympathy with a fully inclusive bill did a special Whip count.  There had been earlier informal Whip counts – polls of Democratic Members – that had showed significant support for a bill that included transgender, although even these informal checks never showed that we had a majority.  But Members will sometimes be inclined to give people the answers they think the people who are asking the questions want until the crunch comes.  In the crunch – the serious Whip count taken in contemplation of the bill – it became very clear that while we would retain a significant majority of Democrats, we would lose enough so that a bill that included transgender protection would lose if not amended, and that an anti-transgender amendment would pass.

The question then became how to proceed.  There were several choices.  One was to go forward with the bill understanding that an amendment would be offered to strike the transgender provision.  There was a proposal to have the Democratic leadership do that in what is known as a manager's amendment, in the hopes of avoiding a divisive roll call on the subject.  But the Democratic leadership did not want to take the lead in killing a provision to which its Members are committed as a matter of principle, and in fact, given Congressional procedures, there is no way to prevent a roll call even on that.  People have claimed that the desire to achieve a roll call is aimed solely at protecting some Democrats from having to make a tough choice.  That is of course a factor, and asking your supporters to vote with you on a matter that is doomed both to lose itself and to lose you votes is not a good way to build up support.  But it is also the case that a number of the Democrats were prepared to vote for the inclusion of the transgender provision even though they knew that it would hurt them politically.  The main reason not to put this to a vote is our interest in ultimately adopting transgender protection.  If we were to push for a vote now, knowing that the transgender provision would be defeated by a majority, we would be making it harder ultimately to win that support.  As recent campaigns indicate, Members of Congress who are accused of switching their position on votes are pilloried, even when this is done unfairly as it was to Senator Kerry.  Thus, forcing a vote on transgender inclusion now, which would without any question result in a majority against it, would make it harder to win when we have done better in our educational work, because Members who vote no now will be harder to persuade to switch their votes than it will be to get them to vote yes in the first place, never having voted on this before.

In addition, going forward in this situation leaves us open to Republican procedural maneuvers in which they could succeed not only in getting rid of the transgender provision. This would not kill the bill, but it would substantially delay it, and would be have very bad psychological effect in a situation in which maintaining the right psychology –optimism – is important.

That is why I believe that a strategy of going forward with a transgender inclusive provision that would certainly be stricken at some point in the procedure by a vote in the House would be a mistake.

Leaders in the GLBT community, who strongly support the inclusion of transgender, now acknowledge that this would be the case – namely that the transgender provision would lose – so their proposed alternative was simply to withhold the bill from the House altogether.

That is, their recommendation was that the Speaker simply announce that she was not going to allow the Employment Non-Discrimination Act to come up at all.  I believe that would be a disaster – politically, morally, and strategically.  While the reason for this would be the debate over how ultimately to achieve transgender inclusion, the impression that would be given to the country was that Speaker Pelosi, the first Democratic Speaker in thirteen years, and a lifelong strong supporter of LGBT rights, had decided that we could not go forward on what had been the major single legislative goal of gay and lesbian people for over thirty years.

Some in the transgender community and those who agree with them have given a variety of strategic arguments why they think it would be better not to go forward.  One variant is that since the President is likely to veto the bill anyway, it does not make any difference if we fail to vote on it.  But it should be noted that this is directly contradictory to the arguments that the LGBT community has been making for years.  That is, we have been very critical of arguments that we should not push for votes on anti-discrimination legislation simply because it wasn't openly going to win.  People have correctly pointed to the value of getting people used to voting for this, of the moral force of having majorities in either the House or the Senate or both go on record favorably even if the President was going to veto it, and have in fact been getting Members ready so if that if and when we get a president ready to sign this, we are closer to passage.  To repeat, the argument that we should not take up legislation unless we are sure the President is going to sign it is about as opposite to all of the arguments LGBT people have been making for as long as I can remember.

The real reason that people are now arguing that we should withhold any action on the antidiscrimination bill unless it includes transgender as well as sexual orientation is that they are, as they have explicitly said, opposed in principle to such a bill becoming law.  That is the crux of the argument.  There are people who believe – in the transgender community and elsewhere – that it would be wrong to enact a law that banned discrimination based on sexual orientation unless it fully included people who are transgender.  I think this argument is deeply flawed.

First, I would note that since I first became a legislator thirty-five years ago, I have spent a lot of time and energy helping enact legislation to protect a variety of groups from discrimination.  In no case has any of those bills ever covered everybody or everything. Antidiscrimination legislation is always partial.  It improves coverage either to some group or some subject matter, but never achieves everything at once.  And insistence on achieving everything at once would be a prescription for achieving nothing ever.

To take the position that if we are able to enact legislation that will protect millions of Americans now and in the future from discrimination based on sexual orientation but should fail to do so because we are not able to include transgender people as well is to fly in the face of every successful strategy ever used in expanding antidiscrimination laws.  Even from the standpoint of ultimately including transgender people, it makes far more sense to go forward in a partial way if that is all we can do.  Part of the objection to any antidiscrimination legislation is fear of consequences, which fears are always proven to be incorrect.  There is a good deal of opposition now to passing even sexual orientation legislation.  Enacting legislation to ban discrimination based on sexual orientation and getting a year or two's experience with it, will be very helpful in our ultimately adding to it protection for people who are transgender.  That is, if you always insist on doing all the difficult things in one bite, you will probably never be successful.  Dismantling the opposition piecemeal has always worked better.

For these reasons I have proposed along with the Democratic leadership the following strategy.  First, we have introduced two bills.  One will be ENDA as it has historically existed, banning discrimination on sexual orientation.  A second will add transgender protections to that basic scheme.  We will move forward with the ban on sexual orientation for which we finally – after thirty-plus years have the votes.  After we are successful in winning that vote, I will urge the Committee on Education and Labor to proceed with our next step, which will be to continue the educational process that I believe will ultimately lead to our being able to add transgender protections.  This will mean within a month or two hearing in the Committee on Education and Labor which, unlike the hearings we previously had on this bill, will now be able to focus exclusively on transgender issues, and will give people a chance to meet transgender people, to understand who they really are, and to deal with the fears that exist.  The other options are either to bring a bill to the floor in which the transgender provision will be defeated by a significant majority, making it less likely that we will be able to succeed in this area in the future,  or ask the Speaker of the House in effect put aside her lifelong political commitment to fairness and be the one who announces that we will not pass a bill banning discrimination based on sexual orientation even though we have the votes to do it.  Passing ENDA in part and then moving on to add transgender provisions when we can is clearly preferable to either of these approaches.

What do you think about these two-faced politicians? Better to have an open enemy than a false friend?

    I kind of understand his view.  He's thinking in terms of political reality when he talks about going for what they can get for certain.

    I understand it but, of course, I don't agree with it.  I think the whole issue will have more of an impact if it was entirely inclusive.

The T community has always been part of the LBG. It has just been recently that we have come out and have addressed ourselves to the rest and that we are still part and have always been part of the LBG. That is why we put the T on the end. We are still adding letters. Is it GL or is it GLB. Do the Bisexuals have anything in this? Are they excluded too? We have been working in conjunction with the whole GLBT community to get our rights for all. Now, we are going to be excluded like we were before. This is why we have to let ourselves be known. They don't know there are a lot of us out there. We need to voice our opinions, otherwise we will lose out. You can not go stealth and not think that no one will find out. They will. When you change your name you are an alias.
Sheila

It's an interesting explanation on the part of the Democrats, which in essence means the inclusion of transpeople in ENDA in a later amendment or bill is dead for this session if not until 2009 and beyond. If they can't pass it with the original one, who thinks it will pass by itself? Congress has a history of doing this and never addressing the issue down the road.

And I'm angry at Rep. Frank for being hypocritical when the majority of human rights and LGBT organizations support it. All he's doing is giving justification to the Gay community to forget about rights and protections for transpeople ("See, with 'them' we wouldn't have gotten the bill through Congress."), now leaving transpeople on their own for future legislation. It will be interesting to see if this becomes an issue in his re-election campaign next year, and if it's simply out of sight out of mind.

I hope the trans community keeps reminding him of his promise to see what he says, "Gee, I'm sorry, it's not realistic at this time and won't be until after the next election. For you see, it's a contentious issue with some voters we just can't touch right now. But trust me, we'll get back to it in 2009. But not forget to remind me then."

--Susan--

   I was a little okay with being dropped earlier because I have a tendency to just accept whatever happens, but then I realized that by dropping us, they are giving the mean people what they want - a divided community.

   It should be all or nothing.  Everyone or no one.

   If the politicians don't have the guts to vote for what is right, we should not make it easier for them by excluding parts of the community.

The right wingers are laughing at all of us LGBT now. For years they'd wanted to divide and conquer us--but the enemy who is doing that comes from within.

Every LGBT organization (SAVE FOR HRC) has made a clear statement.  ENDA MUST INCLUDE GENDER IDENTITY.

So when Frank is saying the community supports this he is completely off base. 

Additionally Tammy Baldwin, the only lesbian representative in the house, has REFUSED to sign onto the bill without transgender inclusion.  We know who are real friends are now. 

can you say "incremental inclusion"

Posted on: September 29, 2007, 11:53:32 PM

---

Like it or not we are now stuck with what the leadership has put upon the table. we now must decide weather to support it or throw the entire thing out.
It is a big hit for the T community. will the GLB ever come back with T-inclusive support? only time will tell

should the T community support a trans-trashed bill?
in my opinion Yes,  we need to support the GLB now so later we can seek and expect their help to inclusive legislation.
do i like this process?  NO.

calling the players every name in the book is not going to help the cause. replying with  a clear concise measured response will.

rember we don't need to preach to the choir, we need to reach the right audiance, the ones who are creating and using a trans stereotype vision against us.

Quote from: Amy T. on September 30, 2007, 02:26:22 AM
Every LGBT organization (SAVE FOR HRC) has made a clear statement.  ENDA MUST INCLUDE GENDER IDENTITY.

That's what is bothering me too. The statement from Solmonese seems carefully crafted to be vague and noncommittal. I'm getting the sickly feeling of betrayal.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 30, 2007, 05:40:01 AM. . . The statement from Solmonese seems carefully crafted to be vague and noncommittal. I'm getting the sickly feeling of betrayal.

It struck me in that way too.

I've decided to neither support nor work against the new pair of ENDAs now that they're separated.  I won't for the trans version because I know it's doomed.  I won't for the sexual orientation version because it's incomplete and, ultimately, doomed as well.  I think the president will veto it.

Then, on 'til next time!

hugs & smiles
Emelye

I don't understand why this surprises any of you.   I realize that Democrats vis-a-vi Liberals are more likely to propose, endorse and pass legislation for the GLBT community, however, you forget one very important thing that is coming very clear now.   They are still politicians.   It doesnt matter which side of the isle they are on.   The fact that transpeople are a minority within a minority only makes it easier for them to strike transpeople from the list.    This way when they do run for re-election, when they appeal to the masses they can say, "Oh look what I did for the GLBT community".   And all the lefty looney people(not the GLBT people that know better) will go "awww isnt that nice".      Welcome to Politics 101 folks.   Every man is in it for themselves and the most popular person wins.

If you need validation to this, just look at your presidential candidates.   Its like a Where's Waldo for the qualified person.

I don't know what the solution is, frankly I don't think its going to come simply.   What I can say is that with time, minds change.   Think for a second, if you told someone 20 years ago you wanted to be a woman, you would be scorned or worse, beaten.   Today, if you say it, the response is more like..  "Whatever floats your boat".  I realize this isnt the reaction you want, but in the evolution of society, it is a step foward.   Social behaivor's take time.   This is painful as there is injustice taking place in the meantime, but we can't change the minds of the entire country over night.

I am not suggesting either that we stop trying altogether, but I am suggesting that the next time something gets in the way, don't be too surprised.  Realize why it is, and learn from that.

Perhaps one day when it doesnt matter what party you belong to, or what kind of underwear you have on, people will live, and let live.

Just my 2 cp worth

Quote from: Skye on September 30, 2007, 10:48:52 AM
I don't understand why this surprises any of you.   I realize that Democrats vis-a-vi Liberals are more likely to propose, endorse and pass legislation for the GLBT community, however, you forget one very important thing that is coming very clear now.   They are still politicians.   It doesnt matter which side of the isle they are on.   The fact that transpeople are a minority within a minority only makes it easier for them to strike transpeople from the list.    This way when they do run for re-election, when they appeal to the masses they can say, "Oh look what I did for the GLBT community".   And all the lefty looney people(not the GLBT people that know better) will go "awww isnt that nice".      Welcome to Politics 101 folks.   Every man is in it for themselves and the most popular person wins.

If you need validation to this, just look at your presidential candidates.   Its like a Where's Waldo for the qualified person.

I don't know what the solution is, frankly I don't think its going to come simply.   What I can say is that with time, minds change.   Think for a second, if you told someone 20 years ago you wanted to be a woman, you would be scorned or worse, beaten.   Today, if you say it, the response is more like..  "Whatever floats your boat".  I realize this isnt the reaction you want, but in the evolution of society, it is a step foward.   Social behaivor's take time.   This is painful as there is injustice taking place in the meantime, but we can't change the minds of the entire country over night.

I am not suggesting either that we stop trying altogether, but I am suggesting that the next time something gets in the way, don't be too surprised.  Realize why it is, and learn from that.

Perhaps one day when it doesnt matter what party you belong to, or what kind of underwear you have on, people will live, and let live.

Just my 2 cp worth

I have to comment! this is a very intelligent and well thought post I found it very thought provoking! thank you Skye I enjoy things that make me think!

Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 30, 2007, 11:48:10 AM
I have to comment! this is a very intelligent and well thought post I found it very thought provoking! thank you Skye I enjoy things that make me think!

Well, I don't!  I prefer to react with the blindest of instinct like some kind of antennaed & jelly bodied ocean dwelling creature lurking in the dark depths of the sea. It makes it easier to explain why I'm wondering the streets wearing nothing but a tiara.   

Quote from: Rebis on September 30, 2007, 02:03:43 PM

Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 30, 2007, 11:48:10 AM
I have to comment! this is a very intelligent and well thought post I found it very thought provoking! thank you Skye I enjoy things that make me think!

Well, I don't!  I prefer to react with the blindest of instinct like some kind of antennaed & jelly bodied ocean dwelling creature lurking in the dark depths of the sea. It makes it easier to explain why I'm wondering the streets wearing nothing but a tiara.   

as long as the tiara is fashionable your ok!

QuoteWell, I don't!  I prefer to react with the blindest of instinct like some kind of antennaed & jelly bodied ocean dwelling creature lurking in the dark depths of the sea. It makes it easier to explain why I'm wondering the streets wearing nothing but a tiara.   

OOO OOO!  I WANT A TIARA!

I don't like to just sit around and make up justifications to some misinformation. I will not support the ENDA Bill if it goes to a vote without Gender Identity included. I will not support the other bill that Rep Frank put in as a piece of candy to the trans people. That bill, by everyone who has read it and all the organizations, does not have a ghost of a chance. Rep Frank knows that. I do know that this will cause a split in the GLBT. There will not be as many Trans people supporting the GLB. What about organizations like PFLAG who accepted the trans folks into their organizations? It will make it harder for people to contribute to these organizations as, supposedly, most of their group is GLB. It causes some hurt feelings, that will heal over time. I guess in 30 years as Rep Frank wants us to wait cause the GLB did, we will get our just rewards. I hope I don't get fired, I really do like working as a school bus driver.
Sheila

Hi,

   I was over at HuffPo and I read this by a jerk who calls himself hollywoodbill.  I ran into him and another jerk there yesterday.  Anyway, this is an example of what irritates me.  This guy is okay with dropping the T's from ENDA, but it's not enough.  Look at how he feels the need to go on. 
  The following is that man's remark followed by a remark from a very staunch supporter of T's and then followed by my response.  I am so close to walking house to house and just punching people who show attitude towards us.
   Anyway, it relates to this thread because the initial article was about how wrong it is to drop the T.
   I also want to say that this evil comment seems to be the opinion of a minority of gays.

Signed,

Your buddy Rebis (coming to a house near you) 

QuoteHollywoodBill (See profile | I'm a fan of HollywoodBill)
Dump the ->-bleeped-<-s. It's tough enough being gay in this country at times without throwing in a group that has usually stated that they aren't gay to begin with. How this crew got attached to the Gay/Lesbian Alliance is beyond my comprehension.

At best the numbers for this sub group are so miniscule as to be non existent. The US Census Bureau estimates the number of Gays in the country to be 5%. I doubt that the number of transsexual people is 1/10 of 1% of the gays.

Maybe another day the political climate will change, but for now I would like to see my rights extended and protected. If that means a compromise at the moment, then so be it.
Reply | Favorite | Flag as abusive | posted 10:49 am on 09/28/2007

response from Qbear (he kills me) *rebis

  Qbear (See profile | I'm a fan of Qbear)
->-bleeped-<- YOU
Transexuals will NOT be thrown under a bus, or made to ride in the back of a bus.
Democrats either STAND for all of the LGBT community....or don't ask for ONE DIME or ONE VOTE.

got it?
GOOD!
Reply | Parent | Favorite | Flag as abusive | posted 01:16 pm on 09/28/2007


Response from me, Rebis 

  robotfog (See profile | I'm a fan of robotfog)

Thanks again for denigrating us ->-bleeped-<-s, hollywoodbill.

For your information, transgendered people are tightly knit with gays and lesbians through the same history of oppression by the same oppressors. It's nice to know transgendered people now have to look forward to oppression from socially acceptable gays.
In case you forgot, stonewall wasn't just a gay battle. There were transgendered people there too. Also, the reason we're so invisible is that it is more difficult to come out as a transsexual than it is a gay in today's social climate. Not to mention that even just expressing your gender issues openly throws up a giant flag that attracts criminally insane bigots.
How often do you hear about paramedics refusing to help a gay accident victim as opposed to a transsexual one? There have been cases in RECENT history of transsexuals being left to bleed to death because nobody wanted to touch them. What about the rape victims in the T community? FtM's are attacked by men who need to show them how to be women and FtM's are attacked because sickos feel the need to show THEM what it's like to be a woman.

Christ. I am so tired of uncaring me me me people like yourself.

I no longer divide the world between republicans and us. I now divide it between all small minded cruel hearted people and human beings. I'm a human being. What are you?

Sorry for the rant.
Reply | Parent | posted 08:52 pm on 09/30/2007

I just keep wondering what the ENDA threads around here would be like had the situation been reversed:

"Lawmakers decide to drop the GLB parts of ENDA for fear the bill would never pass considering the public intolerance for gays. The TG portion of the bill will move on however, as it's predicted we finally have the votes to get TGs the protections they deserve."

Just food for thought.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on September 30, 2007, 11:10:38 PM
I just keep wondering what the ENDA threads around here would be like had the situation been reversed:

"Lawmakers decide to drop the GLB parts of ENDA for fear the bill would never pass considering the public intolerance for gays. The TG portion of the bill will move on however, as it's predicted we finally have the votes to get TGs the protections they deserve."

Just food for thought.

~Kate~

Hi Kate,

   I would still be pissed because it's 'all or none' with me.  It truly hurts me to see people left behind.

Good question, though.


Rebisio the magnificent

Quote from: Rebis on September 30, 2007, 11:15:48 PM
It truly hurts me to see people left behind.

Me too.

But it hurts me even more to hold someone back

~Kate~