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How to avoid upsetting the nonbinaries. Lets stop this before we get hurt.

Started by Satinjoy, September 17, 2014, 08:52:42 AM

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Satinjoy

I am medically diagnosed as non binary, flat out, it is on my hormone letter.

I also probably have a good insight into some of the mtf paradyne.

I know only a little about the non binary paradyne, just enough to know I have started a life long journey here.

Binary thinking triggers non binaries.

Non binary thinking triggers binaries.

Is some of this clinical?  Anyone wanna place bets on that?

It is extremely frustrating for the non binary if a binary suggests a binary solution.  FTE, full transition, those things.  We won't allow ourselves to ignore the components that will scream if we do this.  We spent enough time shutting down our feelings.  We spent enough of our ourselves learning that its complicated, that gender in us is deep within.

It is extremely frustrating for the binary when the non binary, who may look binary, begins to suffer.  They want to help.  They offer solutions. They cry when they find out they couldn't.  Instead, the feel rejected, while we get angry, or hurt, or destabilize for those who are the deepest wounded.

My suggestion?  Unconditional love and acceptance, and respecting the others paradyne.  Respecting their right to be whatever form of transgender they are, that they  think they are, whatever.  Learning when to speak, when to be silent, when to embrace.

How do we heal the mess?

How do we stop the triggering?

Can we accept that some people really and truly cannot understand the other paradyne?  And won't.  For whatever reason, it doesn't even matter why.

What matters is we can lose valuable people on this forum if we don't get this right.

Take the high road.

Lets solve this problem right now, before people get hurt, before war breaks out in the forest over something as sad as not being able to get it.

This place is sanctuary for the non binary.  For some of us, namely me, it is life or death for it to work.

Lets get this one right.  It seems to be the one great stumbling block for the transgendered.  Lets figure out how not to trigger the non binaries, and how not to trigger the binaries.

We had a cis do it the other day.  I had to call out of work...

What are your motives my dears?

Why do we do it?

Is it fear? Denial?  Feeling threatened?  Feeling misunderstood and frustrated?  Does it trigger the dysphoria?  Cause years of frustration at people just not getting it to come up to the surface?  If we feel attacked,  how do we deal with this?

This is big people's stuff now.  This is serious folks, this affects the good of all trans.  Its not a game.  There are casualties, there is death, there is insanity.  There are survivors too, and healers.

What are you thinking right now?  How dare sh'e?  Why the heck did sh'e have to bring this up?

Because its poisonous, a cancer inside our forum, it has to be dealt with before its too late.

How strongly do I feel personally about it?

You know the answer to that one.

All right folks, what are the solutions.  Or better put, are you part of the problem or the solution?  What are you doing about it?  Do you know when to keep your mouth shut, when to speak?  Do you have the wisdom needed to handle it?  Are you learning how to restrain from those triggers, have you figured out what they even are?

You need to know what those triggers are.  Whatever side of the paradyne you sit on.  Paradyne is point of view.  More than that.

Non binary means ... what.  I am not qualified to even tell you.

But I am one, and I am WORRIED.  Lets get this one right.  There are people missing on this forum.  Why, where the heck did they go?  Why did they leave us?

Lets get this right.

Ask the questions.  Seek the understanding first.  Check the motives.  If I may be so brazen as to bring this up.

What are your motives?  Your triggers?  Your experience triggering?  Not pleasant, was it? 

Sensitivity, respect, ....

Rise above my dear ones.  Its time.

Nails out, hair on, I sure hope I didn't just screw this up.

It was eating at me.  We can pretend it isn't happening, and watch the threads lock, or we can figure out how to rise above this.

Now, be careful with this thread.   Don't f up.  Use your heads.

Satinjoy.
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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suzifrommd

I'll put in my $.02.

It's really hard to avoid triggering folks. It's gonna happen, given the sort of things that have happened in most of our pasts.

My suggestion: It's OK to tell someone "I've been triggered." It's not an accusation, it's not an indictment, and its not, not, not a request to stay away. It's simply an expression of feeling and perhaps an attempt to educate someone who doesn't understand.

Therefore, if someone triggers you, tell them.

If someone says you've triggered them, listen and understand what triggers them.

In either case, understand that nearly everyone who posts here is doing their best to be respectful of the other folks here. Stepping on landmines periodically isn't a sign of indifference, it's more a commentary on the ubiquity of land mines.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Ms Grace

Pretty much everything I understand about being non binary I have learned through this forum in the last 11 months that I've been a member (same applies to the f2m experience). So I went from nothing to whatever my current level is now. I'm always happy to be guided in that understanding by the non binary community here, but a lot of it is multifaceted and the way someone wishes to be related to is an individual preference and often shifting too (pronouns being an example) so it can be difficult to keep up.

My starting point is to never make assumptions or generalisations but I am not perfect or a mind reader so if I don't know something it's not wilful or intentional ignorance and certainly no intention to trigger someone, it's just that I don't know or haven't kept up. Like I said, I'm happy to be guided by the wishes of non binary folk, just let me know what those wishes are. :)
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Athena

I have tried to express to people that there is only 1 person who can tell you who you are and that is you. Even therapists can only help you discover your path. If they start saying you are definitely this or you need this to be happy, I think they are not that good a therapist. They can say I think this would be best or it seems like you are this but only you have the right to give definite answers to the question of who you are.

If I trigger people please let me know, I do not want to cause people distress. This is a bit of a sore topic for me because I constantly have my friends expecting me and telling me to be who I am not, at least not anymore.

Also no two people are the same, myself I am not sure exactly where I fit on the gender scale (I might be more binary then I thought).
Formally known as White Rabbit
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Sammy

Gosh, there are many types of non-binaries, which my brain just fails to comprehend. I dont want to oversimplify things or kinda make generalisations, but IMO, being androgyne is quite simple, in comparison to genderfluids or agenders/bigenders etc. I just fail to comprehend them and by acknowleding that, I became aware that there are people who cannot comprehend how one can feel both female and male at the same time (which seems plain obvious to me).
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Satinjoy

Many binaries and many non binaries.  All valid, many hard to understand, and all in pain or recovering from pain.

I thought I was an idiot for starting this thread.  I pray it doesn't blow the whole thing here.  Right now, there are some terrific posts already, and maybe the beginning of healings.

Trying to figure me out is not something I suggest, you will get a headache.  Helping me live, is another matter entirely.

And Emily, we had missed you here, I am so, so glad you are back.

This is what I had hoped for, solutions.  Communication instead of finger pointing.  Big people's stuff.

SJ
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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Dread_Faery

Respect is the key I feel. People have very different experiences and very different triggers around them. It's important to understand that we can trigger people without intending to and that if we do trigger people, not to make it about us by going on about how sorry we are for our actions.

I don't think it is possible to fully understand someone else's experience of their gender, and neither should we try. However we can respect someone's choices and right of self determination in regards to their body.

this comic seems to be relevant to this discussion.

http://robothugscomic.tumblr.com/post/97107162945/new-comic-pronouns-right-super-weird-little
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Taka

i was thinking about making this kind of thread a couple days ago. seems necessary right now, it hurts to see people get hurt or become afraid of posting.

for me, it's mostly about telling my own tale. none of us are similar enough that it would make sense to liken someone to me in a response to them. i do compare nyself to others though, when i read their tales, that's how i learn. but i feel like it's always important to avoid saying that someone is so similar to me, though i can identify with their story, that's not a bad thing. or to say that i was in the same place as someone else, and this was what i did. no, i may have struggled with a similar kind of problem, but i must name the problem properly, and not make my solutions out to be "right", i must tell that this worked for me, in a similar situation. i cannot know if i was really in the same placefor we travel different roads, and even if we really did cross the same points some times, the end destination may still not be the same.

it's mostly about wording, interestingly. most here seem to mean well, so the intention is usually not the problem.

i do avoid posting sometimes though, when my empathy takes a break. it just gets too difficult to see other people's triggers and the pitfalls of conversation. so instead of unintentionally triggering half the board, i just shut up.
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ativan

A lot of times we are left with using words that if you are not trans, they have different meanings, even if the definitions do overlap, they still have different meanings for us.
The use of binary and non-binary (confusing to cisciety), female and male, all have different meanings to us.
There is confusion between different ways they can be used simply by the context they are written in...
I could probably list more words and terms, but it isn't necessary.

It's the context that is important.
The way we use words mean different things when you consider that society for the most part doesn't understand the context of them as trans people do.
There is a lot of trying to define just what is binary as opposed to non-binary and that idea, opposed, is a problem.
Not in the sense of one opposing the other, just the context of it.
There is a lot of overlap in how they are defined, simply by how they are used.
As trans, talking about or using the word female as an example, has a lot of undertones to it, much more descriptive meaning...
Same goes for a lot of how we use the language, it just isn't suited to the idea and doesn't always translate into trans very well.
The same thing goes for the way we talk as different designated groups, designated being key here...
They overlap as well, you can belong to several different groups at the same time, refer to several as if they are one.
It's in the context of what we are saying, how we say the words that come from a language that has really never let trans define the words we use.
The same thing then happens to the terms we use.

There seems to be a battle brewing on the horizon, yet it is nothing, not at all like some imagine it might be.
It's an illusion based on assumptions, made about the definitions and the context that our words we have borrowed, are used.
The transgender umbrella covers a lot of different people, it is and always will have disputes as to who is who in it...
The same thing goes for the different groups under it.
There is only a very fuzzy grey line that is always changing between who is non-binary and who is binary.
Stop worrying about just where that line is and how to define it. Isn't going to happen.
There is such diversity among trans people that even dividing them loosely into groups is hard to do.
We all have much more in common that we do as differences, it can't be stressed enough, it's true..
How much time is wasted on each others definitions and assumptions of where that line is and just what are the definitions?
Use common sense in making assumptions about what others have to say and do say.
There aren't finite definitions that we use, just ones that are loose in the ways we use those words and terms.
We borrowed them, they have a different meaning to them.
Even when used with respect and care, there are always going to be people who misunderstand what it is anyone is trying to say.

The definitions and meanings are in the context of how they are being used.
Nobody owns and has the definition, we all do and they are different depending on how they are used.
Words can hurt, but they also are our only way to communicate ideas worth pursuing...
Descriptive use of these words and terms are best understood by looking at the context they are being used in.
Don't scan though comments and look for words that trigger, look at the broader sense that they are being used for...
If something is said that is a trigger, if it is for most people in a conversation, then inquire about the descriptive way it is being used, the context.

Don't pretend that we don't talk in concepts about most things, we have to, the language is borrowed, the words we use.
Look at the context, read the context and if you don't understand it, ask questions.
Don't assume anything until it has been addressed as to how words are being used, the context of the concepts we talk in.
I don't care who said what, it all comes down to understanding what the context of any conversation is.
Don't assume that a comment is an answer to a question you never asked.
Don't make unfounded accusations and such if you don't understand the context, the way they are being used.
We get pretty creative in the way we use words, keep that in mind.
We each use them in slightly different ways depending on our own view of our world around us.
This isn't society talking here, it isn't cisciety talking here, it's trans and it suffers from language barriers.
Keep it in mind that we talk in concepts of what these words mean, the definitions are different...
They are often used in a descriptive way, even if the person using them has a defined used for them.
We read them in the descriptive ways we as individuals think of them and the diversity is huge.
Keep it in mind that what you think you are reading might mean a completely different thing for others.
None of us has a lock on any definition to the words we use and the way we use them.
It takes time and thought to figure it out sometimes, so do that.
Use some time to think about what is being said instead of assuming by reaction to any of it.
It really is a rare thing around here that someone will attack another person, but it is common that we think it has happened.
How to avoid upsetting non-binaries is an issue, but it is one that is inside of the bigger issue of how do we avoid upsetting anyone here.

More to the point is that we should be careful in how we use words, how the descriptive nature that we use them is always changing.
It's because the concepts change, they grow. Most conversations are about just that.
We don't talk in a way that is defined, we talk in a way that is descriptive. Concepts.
It's difficult enough to grasp some of the ideas, we don't need to be arguing about definitions that don't exist in our world views.
It's a conversation about the concepts and how they are always evolving, always changing.
They always have and always will, this is true everywhere, not just here.
In our own ways, the way trans people talk, we are very descriptive in the way we use words.
We have to, they are borrowed and we don't use a standard definition, we are descriptive by need, not by the choosing to do so.
To much energy is wasted in our conversations with arguing over definitions, when they were used in a descriptive way.
It's always going to be this way, descriptive, and we have a way of talking that defines that and that only.
It's our best tool for learning, otherwise we are just arguing without any real meaning to the arguments.
That's just complaining, not conversing, not learning.
Ativan
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orie

Moderator Note: We understand this post is very Triggering. It has been dealt with.

It has been used in the topic and hard to remove due to flow of the topic. If you feel it is triggering then just pass any reference made.

Thanks
Izzy


TRIGGER WARNING

I realize this is directed at me with my clumsy, derailed attempt of a thread where I apparently managed to upset a lot of people...

Triggering, I guess. I think it's only fair to warn here.

It is just that as far as I could see, the only sure thing about the non-binary experiences and life-worlds, is that, however somewhat alike, they differ for every non-binary person. There are no two non-binaries sharing exactly the same set of experiences. There is no such thing a non-binary gender, there are persons with each their own cluster of non-binary experiences.
And at the same time I observe that every natal male or female experiences his/her gender in the same way. I am talking about feeling your gender; every male and female has a stable, unwavering feeling of being a male or a female. Incidentally or not, the two genders correspond to the male and female sexes, whereby the diversity and freedom of gender expressions, borrowing and exchanging, have been growing exponentially.
Why do I have this impression that the first situation desribes a syndrome, an affliction, and the second - the normal condition of the organism?

Bye
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Mark3

I have to admit, most of this triggering info goes right over my head..? Of all the mistakes I've made here so far, this is the issue i never want to get wrong, that I want most to understand, and still seem to understand the least.? Its most important because I can literally hurt you with an innocently meant word, and I would rather kill myself than bring the slightest pain to any of you... Sometimes I'm scared to say thing because of that, yet if I say nothing I'm of no value to anyone.??
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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ativan

Quote from: orie on September 17, 2014, 12:28:30 PM
I realize this is directed at me with my clumsy, derailed attempt of a thread where I apparently managed to upset a lot of people...
Nothing here directed at you, nothing at all. Your views and ideas are of no importance, none at all, I see no value either way in them.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: orie on September 17, 2014, 12:28:30 PM
Why do I have this impression that the first situation desribes a syndrome, an affliction, and the second - the normal condition of the organism?

Um... Are you really looking for an answer here? OK, here comes one.

Because you are under the impression that anything that is uncommon or different from what a lot of people encounter is not a "normal condition".

I'm not sure exactly what "normal" means, or what makes something abnormal. How rare/different does an organism's condition need to be before you will have the impression that the condition is "not normal"?

And do you really think it's respectful to single out a group, however small, and say to them that theirs is not a "normal condition" whereas yours is?

Normal and abnormal are not neutral terms. They marginalize, stigmatize, and exclude.

Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Sammy

Lol, guess we might need our own non-binary moderator to watch over us :).  I would vote for Ativan :)
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Cindy

Quote from: orie on September 17, 2014, 12:28:30 PM
I realize this is directed at me with my clumsy, derailed attempt of a thread where I apparently managed to upset a lot of people...

Triggering, I guess. I think it's only fair to warn here.

It is just that as far as I could see, the only sure thing about the non-binary experiences and life-worlds, is that, however somewhat alike, they differ for every non-binary person. There are no two non-binaries sharing exactly the same set of experiences. There is no such thing a non-binary gender, there are persons with each their own cluster of non-binary experiences.
And at the same time I observe that every natal male or female experiences his/her gender in the same way. I am talking about feeling your gender; every male and female has a stable, unwavering feeling of being a male or a female. Incidentally or not, the two genders correspond to the male and female sexes, whereby the diversity and freedom of gender expressions, borrowing and exchanging, have been growing exponentially.
Why do I have this impression that the first situation desribes a syndrome, an affliction, and the second - the normal condition of the organism?

Bye


I am going to make a very rare response in public.

This is an ignorant and foolish post. While I can accept ignorance with disbelief and shaking of my head, I shall not have such hateful trivialisation on this forum.

It is for you - as you say 'goodbye

Cindy
Forum Admin.
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