by Stephen Adams, associate editor,
CitizenLink.Com
(A sub-group of Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family)

Subhead:
Legislation would strike at the very heart of our American liberties.

"ENDA would "strike at the very heart of our American liberties," said Doug Napier, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund. It's especially threatening to businesses that are already "regulated to death," Napier said. "And now we're going to tell you who you can hire and who you can't fire, based on a category of protection that is not based on an immutable characteristic, but a choice of lifestyle." "

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'Liberties' is a word with a contested definition.  It means something very different depending on whether you are progressive or conservative.  In this (conservative) case, it is a code-word that means the conservatives can continue to exercise their 'right' to provide us negative consequences for our 'lifestyle choice'.

We had also better come up with a good offense against the recent 'immutable characteristic' gambit...

Karen

I am just courious do these people think that a 5yr. old child is making "life style" choices? (as in the little girl in the video of the 20\20 interview that Tink posted). and even if it were a life style choice does that mean that we should be allowed to fire someone if they are a conservative with thier own views different than our own? what about gay employers should they be allowed to fire someone who is straight based on thier choice of life styles? I wonder how many conservative would sit back if that were what was happening!

I think this has some meaning here. A friend sent this to me and I find it very interesting.
Sheila




After many years working as a bartender for Harrah's Casino, Darlene Jespersen was fired for failing to conform to the Casino's new 'personal best' grooming policy. As a female bartender, Jesperson was required to have her hair "teased, curled, or styled," and to wear stockings. Jesperson was also suddenly required to put on makeup everyday: lipstick and nail polish required.

It was a regimen she found burdensome and demeaning, and while sexual orientation was not an issue in her case, I know quite a few lesbians who might feel the same way. What would Ellen Degeneres do if NBC decided she needed to wear skirts on her show everyday? What would KD Lang do if her record label demanded she adopt a 'less masculine' haircut?

While this may not have happened to Ellen or KD, this kind of discrimination happens all the time. Darlene Jespersen lost her job because she did not live up to the female-specific requirements of her new dress code. And when she fought her termination in court, she lost.

Congress is now looking at two different versions of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. One would make this type of discrimination illegal. The other would not.

Congressman Barney Frank has chosen to introduce a straight-acting-only version of ENDA which bans employment discrimination based on sexual orientation but not gender identity and expression. This version may protect gays and lesbians based on their sexual orientation, but it won't protect gays and lesbians who don't adhere to society's view of what men and women should be.

It won't protect the gay guy who dresses up in drag on halloween. It won't protect the lesbian who doesn't want to be forced to wear a skirt as part of a company uniform. It won't protect any gay man who can't live up to society's standards and "act more like a man". It won't protect any lesbian who can't live up to society's standards and "acting more like a women."

We should be outraged that Barney Frank is considering a bill that excludes the transgender community, but let's be honest, the transgender community are not the only ones being thrown under the bus. Barney may argue that we should start with protecting straight-acting gays and lesbians, and then come back for the rest of the LGBT community later. As the Task Force other organizations have documented by looking at state laws, this simply does not happen. It is always easier to stand strong and stand united and pass an inclusive bill than it is to go back later and try and pass protections based on gender identity and expression.

Make no mistake, a straight-acting-only ENDA ais a hollow victory one that is not worth achieving because it takes us further, not closer towards the goal of protection from employment discrimination for all of us.

Quote from: Karen on September 30, 2007, 12:31:15 PM
by Stephen Adams, associate editor,
CitizenLink.Com
(A sub-group of Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family)

Subhead:
Legislation would strike at the very heart of our American liberties.

"ENDA would "strike at the very heart of our American liberties," said Doug Napier, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund. It's especially threatening to businesses that are already "regulated to death," Napier said. "And now we're going to tell you who you can hire and who you can't fire, based on a category of protection that is not based on an immutable characteristic, but a choice of lifestyle." "

---

'Liberties' is a word with a contested definition.  It means something very different depending on whether you are progressive or conservative.  In this (conservative) case, it is a code-word that means the conservatives can continue to exercise their 'right' to provide us negative consequences for our 'lifestyle choice'.

We had also better come up with a good offense against the recent 'immutable characteristic' gambit...

Karen

Oh, geez I should have chosen wisely and decided not to become transsexual.


tink

Religion is definitely not an immutable characteristic.  It's definitely a lifestyle choice.  These fascists always seem to forget that they are protected under existing hate crime legislation when they spout this specious argument.  Reminding them of this can be a way to refute their mendacious drivel.

They make a living by denying scientific fact in favor of religious dogma.  They won't be convinced.  They use the language of liberty and democracy to destroy our freedoms.  We can counter their misapplication of the word liberty by reminding them of the Declaration of Independence:

QuoteWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

hugs & smiles
(no, really, I'm not just gritting my teeth)
Emelye

Quote from: Tink on September 30, 2007, 07:23:03 PM



Oh, geez I should have chosen wisely and decided not to become transsexual.


tink

see Tink I think you are thinking of this wrong you should have "chosen" to be born with all the correct body parts to begin with then thier would have been no problem!

QuoteOh, geez I should have chosen wisely and decided not to become transsexual.

OK, now I'm confused again. I thought post-op women identified as being str8 women. So the ENDA policy doesn't affect them anyway. Or are you saying that you are both a transsexual and a str8 woman? Or that you were a transsexual, but them you became a str8 woman, but ENDA still applies to you up until the time you transition. I think that is the problem in my opinion. Nobody knows what your identities are, and they seem to be constantly mutable depending on your mood or argument.

Quote from: Thundra on September 30, 2007, 09:03:18 PM

QuoteOh, geez I should have chosen wisely and decided not to become transsexual.

OK, now I'm confused again. I thought post-op women identified as being str8 women. So the ENDA policy doesn't affect them anyway. Or are you saying that you are both a transsexual and a str8 woman? Or that you were a transsexual, but them you became a str8 woman, but ENDA still applies to you up until the time you transition. I think that is the problem in my opinion. Nobody knows what your identities are, and they seem to be constantly mutable depending on your mood or argument.

Thundra, I wasn't referring to the ENDA policy in itself but to the stupid comment said by one of these people that "Ts'im is a life style choice".  This is why I highlighted the phrase in red.  Did you miss it?  Perhaps I should have used a more visible color...

tink

Not every person fights for gay rights so based on your arguments here they should they be excluded from benefiting from those that do. Of course not.

It's the same with Transgender individuals, not every gay person fights for GLBT rights, and not every transgender person fights for them either.  Don't act as if the transgender community hasn't done it's part in the fight for GLBT rights. The gay rights movement was basically triggered by a group of drag queens.  A drag queen may be gay but it's not a requirement. But every drag queen is transgender. So we have been in on this fight from the very start.

I think it's time you take a pass on transgender rights and Transgender inclusion in the fight for gay rights posts here. It's not making you any friends, and wearing out those you do have Thundra...

Susan, you are right that it was the TG community, Sylvia Rivera, that started the riots at Stonewall. We were not called transgender then, we were drag queens, transvestites and other names I don't remember. We have been in the thick of it and only recently have put a common name to our group, transgender. To exclude us is like cutting off an arm to the whole GLBT community. We have been excluded so many times, that we need to stand up for this one. I have had it done to me at the city level. I'm tired of it and will not stand to be excluded anymore.
Sheila

QuoteOh, geez I should have chosen wisely and decided not to become transsexual.

No dear, I was referring to this one-liner, which I take it now to mean that it was rhetorical in nature, not a comment on your part.  Sorry, I forgot to put my mind-reading cap on before I posted it. I'm just glad it wasn't a comment, because you people already have me confused enough.

Posted on: October 01, 2007, 07:53:26 PM

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QuoteBut every drag queen is transgender. So we have been in on this fight from the very start.

I am totally down with the FACT that the Stonewall melee was started by drag queens and drag kings, but if you asked a lot of them, they don't want to be included under the transgendered umbrella. A lot of us old timers don't even get it, your movement, although some of us are trying to understand. I am not saying there are no drag queens or kings that identify as transgendered, but us oldsters sure don't. A lot of us don't even get why so many butches are going for top surgery. That was not available back in the day. And even drag queens aren't in drag 24/7. They are gay men, and it is something they do because they enjoy it. In fact, most of them that I know still use the term transvestite.

To tell you the truth, I didn't know I had any friends left here. That is a surprise to me.

My comments regarding people that bitch about things not going their way are the same that I would make for any cause. For instance, voting. If you don't vote, and things don't go your way, and you did nothing to help your position, than why are you complaining? I have directed the same comments to friends in the queer community, for sure, and it always p***** people off. But that is my POV. If you don't stand up for yourself, don't expect anyone else to do so for you. Otherwise, you have placed yourself into the classic position of a victim, and I spent too many years of my youth as a victim, because that is what I was raised to do.

I am totally down for getting ALL people -- ALL people -- regardless of sex, sexual orientation, gender, or gender presentation the right to express themselves and represent as they see fit. And I don't feel this version of ENDA was doing that, nor do I feel that people's motives were coming from the right place. If transgendered people should have the right to represent, than why shouldn't drag queens, drag kings, crossdressers, and genderf*** practitioners? Why should they be left out of it? If we are going to be inclusive, lets by all means be inclusive.

I respect the rights of other people to disagree with my position and to totally diss these other groups -- but please don't try to take the high moral ground and diss queers in general when you do, because it is the same thing. That is my POV.  Now you can kick me out.