I've been debating writing something here for awhile. I'm not entirely sure what the point would be or what I want to hear, but here goes.

My boyfriend seems to be non-binary. At first, when he told me that he doesn't understand why I care about my gender and that he'd be fine either way, I thought he was another one of those people who just doesn't get it. But then he clarified that sometimes he feels like a woman, sometimes he feels like a man, that he's never felt properly aligned, and that he would prefer to have no gender. I'm not entirely sure what he means and how he identifies and I've got to admit, I'm curious. However, he's made it clear that he really doesn't care about gender, so it's unlikely I'm going to find out. Anyway, this is all his business anyway and I'm not sure why I'm talking about it.

And then there's me. As some people who may remember my early days here know, I used to identify as genderfluid before realizing I'm a transsexual guy. You may remember I angsted over it a lot because I wanted to transition and was afraid I would regret it. So far, I have no regrets and I can't stand the idea of not transitioning. I feel like I've been punched in the gut if someone misgenders me. I'm pretty darn certain I'm a guy and I feel great about that. And yet...
Lately, I've found myself wishing to be genderfluid. I know it doesn't work that way though. You either are or aren't and I have absolutely zero wish to be any less of a guy than a regular guy. So why do I feel this way? I've caught myself thinking of myself as twins like I used to except, this time, I'm the male twin and think of my "sister" as having given the reins to me so to speak. Maybe I'm having trouble letting go of that fantasy I used to have of there being another me to comfort me (even though I'm the one that did the comforting). I've found that reading about Marvel Loki (especially now that he's written as definitely genderfluid) brings up these wishes of being genderfluid the most. Maybe it's because I see him as the Marvel version of me and want to be more like him? Except I'm able to accept our other differences (like being rougher) while still relating to him and sometimes the similarities are more creepy and jarring than anything else. It's not just him either. When my boyfriend told me he could go either way, I wanted to tell him I'm a little more gender bendy than I let on (which I am. There have been a couple times where I felt a little more female than I'd like to admit. After seeing Guardians of the Galaxy, for example, it was like something triggered a short switch and I don't know why or what that means). I didn't though because I was afraid he'd think I was copying him or that he'd think of me as less of a guy. When my friend came out to be as bigender, I told him about the twin thing. I have no idea why I felt/feel that way. It's not even that I want to be like them because I don't like that idea for some reason. I wonder why not. I don't know.
I'm confused over this. I know I'm a guy, I know I need to transition or I'll go mental, I know I can't stand the idea of anyone thinking I'm any less of a guy than any other guy. So why do I feel this way? Why do I want to be both? What does this mean?

Note: Anyone who knows me should already know this, but just in case I want to point out that gender roles have nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure I'd have the same personality either way and, from what little I understand of gender roles, that's pretty masculine what with the aggressiveness and stuff.
I also want to point out that I don't mean to make anyone mad. I'm just confused about this and don't know what to think or feel.
I hope I made some sort of sense to someone. Odin knows I don't make much sense to myself sometimes. I think that may be part of who I am though.

Quote from: Edge on September 22, 2014, 09:15:02 PM
You either are or aren't and I have absolutely zero wish to be any less of a guy than a regular guy. So why do I feel this way?

It is actually possible to be a regular guy and identify as genderfluid at the same time.

I met a guy a few days ago, we had been talking online and decided to meet up. He identifies as genderfluid and he says he presents as male in society and in bedroom with his girlfriend. Occasionally, every few months, he will shift to being more feminine, shave his entire body, wear wigs and cross-dress. Now, you could say, "Why say you are genderfluid if you are male nearly the entire time?" Well, just because he leans towards the male side more than the other, doesn't mean the female side does not exist at all. 

It is the same with me. I present and identify as male to society but on the inside, I identify as non-binary and have a spectrum from female <-> genderless <-> male so I feel that fluidity between shifting between that line, I guess this means I must be genderfluid in a sense! Does that make sense?

i think loki (at least the one i know) would wonder why you think being female some times could make you less of a man.
the all-seeing allfather probably already knows what you mean, even if you don't make sense to yourself.
and i'm sure freya would love you just as much as she loves every other man...

i'm wondering if you cling so desperately to your male identity because of lack of validation.
if he had always been validated, seen by others, had his place in society...
maybe that would make it easier for you to accept the female side who's gotten all the attention until now?
what if, when you pass as male in any and all contexts, gender suddenly stops mattering all that much to you?
because you're seen as the one you say you are.

not trying to say you aren't a man. i'm quite convinced that you are. but that doesn't mean a man can't be a woman some times.
why does it worry you to feel more woman on some days? it used to worry me men i felt like a woman on a male identified day, but after i learned to just think "wow, cool" about it, the bad feelings went away and i could feel amazingly complex and beautiful instead.

Thanks, Taka and EchelonHunt.

Quote from: Taka on September 23, 2014, 01:51:27 AM
i think loki (at least the one i know) would wonder why you think being female some times could make you less of a man.
the all-seeing allfather probably already knows what you mean, even if you don't make sense to yourself.

That's true. They are also two of the gods I look up to most and I should care more about what they think than what people I don't admire do.

Quote from: Taka on September 23, 2014, 01:51:27 AMi'm wondering if you cling so desperately to your male identity because of lack of validation.
if he had always been validated, seen by others, had his place in society...
maybe that would make it easier for you to accept the female side who's gotten all the attention until now?
what if, when you pass as male in any and all contexts, gender suddenly stops mattering all that much to you?
because you're seen as the one you say you are.

Probably. That and I really do have a lot of body dysphoria. I hope that day comes someday because, right now, I can't seem to forget it and I keep being misgendered all the time.

Quote from: Taka on September 23, 2014, 01:51:27 AMnot trying to say you aren't a man. i'm quite convinced that you are. but that doesn't mean a man can't be a woman some times.
why does it worry you to feel more woman on some days? it used to worry me men i felt like a woman on a male identified day, but after i learned to just think "wow, cool" about it, the bad feelings went away and i could feel amazingly complex and beautiful instead.

I feel a lot of pressure to be either one or the other. I am also afraid (with reason) that other people will see me as less of a man and/or less masculine because of it.

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 22, 2014, 11:41:22 PM
It is actually possible to be a regular guy and identify as genderfluid at the same time.
...
It is the same with me. I present and identify as male to society but on the inside, I identify as non-binary and have a spectrum from female <-> genderless <-> male so I feel that fluidity between shifting between that line, I guess this means I must be genderfluid in a sense! Does that make sense?

Yeah that does make sense. For me, I pretty much always feel male, but sometimes I feel like I'm female as well. Female me has exactly the same in personality as male me though, not more feminine.
I think the best way to describe how I identify internally is that I am like Loki.

(Note: I am both a Marvel fan and a heathen and I do see the Marvel characters as completely separate and fictional people who just happen to share the same names. I relate to and like all the Lokis.)

You can be a guy but still feel constrained by binary notions of gender. Your gender identity is yours, you have no obligation to make it fit with someone else's narrative if that doesn't feel comfortable to you. Having a strong desire to transition physically doesn't mean that you have to fit in the box marked "man".

I believe that we construct our gender identities from both external and internal cues, so I don't believe that consciously wanting to be gender fluid (or anything for that matter) doesn't mean it's an invalid identity.

If you're having feelings of confusion over your gender identity then they are worth exploring, and here is a great place to do it because we won't judge

just deal with body dysphoria first. i don't think loki enjoyed life as a mare particularly much, he'd forgive you.

maybe you could try thinking of other ways to express yourself as a woman, than clothing or other gender typical behavior?
at least validate her, maybe she won't try as hard to take back control.

try to differentiate between body dysphoria and other (social?) gender dysphoria.
gender, body, and social presentation really aren't the same things.
the body structure that the brain wants isn't always in perfect agreement with one's gender identity. and also not always in accordance with what society finds "acceptable". some times people will change parts of their body in order for society to perceive them the way they want to be perceived, and not because it's an actual physical need driven by internal gender/body map.

needing a male body doesn't mean you are less woman on the days that you are.
if you turn the question upside down.

and... i'm realizing i've lost grip on why gender's supposed to matter again.
happens once in a while, and feels rather pleasant.
could probably scare the binaries a lot though, if they ever knew how bad i get it.

The "less of a man" or "less of a woman" phrases are ideas rooted in the gender binary and its stereotypes.  When someone does something outside of their gender role, that phrase can be whipped out as an insult, even when there is nothing intrinsically bad about transcending the stereotype.  That people even use it against themselves is disconcerting.

People have different standards.  Some people respect men who look closer to the "stereotype," others have more respect for men who buck the norms, and others still will have their own set of standards that may apply to men and women alike that have little to do with the stereotypes themselves.  The second and third groups may not be as vocal about their feelings as the first, but that typically comes with them not overreacting to any specific example of gender role congruence or incongruence.

The important thing is for you to be you and for your partner to be who they are.  Neither of you is any more or less because of how you may or may not align with gender norms.  Be proud.  Hell, even if you have an impulse to don a dress, you wouldn't be the first transman to go for it, and you'd be able to do it with more skill (thanks to life experience) than most cismen who do so.

Thanks, Dread_Faery, but I do consider myself to fit in the box marked man and am very happy and comfortable there. Hence my confusion.

Thanks, Taka. Yeah, I'm dealing with the body dysphoria. I do have an actual physical need to transition driven by an internal body map.

Thanks, Kaelin, but acting like gender roles/norms have anything to do with my gender is highly insulting in my opinion. If you do it again, I will respond with anger.
In my experience, the second group of people who respect those who "buck gender norms" while simultaneously enforcing them because they give a crap about them are just as vocal, just as insulting, and just as annoying as the people who respect those who follow gender norms. Even if they mean well, it comes across as insulting to be told that I should be or it's assumed I am someone I'm not and don't want to be.

There are some things I repeatedly try to make clear, but people just don't get it. My gender has nothing to do with gender roles, stereotypes, clothing, anything to do with society, behaviour, etc and I despise the assumption that external things have to have anything to do with it.
You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between male me and female me. And I don't want anyone to because I really like being me and I don't want to be anyone else regardless of my gender.
So why does it matter? It matters to me. I like knowing myself and consider that power. I have an obsession with power and a lot of curiosity especially when it comes to myself.

I feel that we have some similarities in why we wanted to transition, for me it was about the physical reality of my body, I knew it needed to be female bodied. For a long time after I completed my transition I was happy there but recently I've started to question the assumptions I made around my transition. You may be in a similar kind of space to that.

You may find that as you work towards your physical transition and changing your external appearance to match your internal body map, that you are able to resolve the confusion. Knowing yourself is powerful, but it's also okay to not understand evert detail about yourself, this is a journey, our understanding of things change as we move forward.

I wish you luck in your journey, and like I said this is a great place to try and work out confusion because we won't judge.

I get the impression that we are similar in this regard (aside from me needing to be physically male) and also in our opinions about self knowledge.
Also, I like your name. I'm a huge faery fan. Depends on the faeries though. I like the creatures and monsters from folklore.

I grew up steeped in celtic mythology, and the folklore of the British Isles. Faeries has always been close to me because they are creatures of wild magic, changing and fickle like the wind. I actually think of myself as a dragon, not a faery as such, but certainly a creature of magic, I love finding places where you can still feel old earth majik. Fortunately I live in cornwall and the borders between this world and Faery are thinner. I actually feel really disconnected living in cities.

Sounds similar to me. I'm Canadian, but grew up steeped in Celtic and Norse mythology and folklore since I've always been drawn to it and it is how I see the world. I do see myself as a faery or jötunn (I have a wider definition of faeries than most people due to all the overlapping words) and have since before I can remember.

Yes, the myth and magic kind of flows through me and shapes the world around me. It's a huge part of who I am, I spin stories out it and live in a world that many people don't seem to know is there. Sometimes it gets me down, because their is so little magic in the world, but mostly I enjoy living in a different world to most people.

Here's to having wild blood

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 23, 2014, 12:34:11 PMHere's to having wild blood

Cheers.

Yeah, same. I tried denying it for awhile when I was a teenager, but it's so much of me and my world that I couldn't ignore it.

i live in a place where magic is part of everyday life. particularly black magic and the fear of being cursed by one's neighbor. old connections with cristianity, traces of catholisism even, and steong bonds to folklore and the magic of pre christian times. we even have a shaman drum at work that people complain is creating a negative energy, probably because it wants us to send it to alexandria already.

used to be a faery, werewolf traits due to having been bitten in childhood, now more of a shadowy creature who loves to mess with minions. and there's even a sootball withing, the ashes of my once broken heart. daemon folks don't need a heart, the sootball is better.

edge should come play in the unicorn forest, we need some more havoc. too much glitter for my taste in there...

i'm fairly sure we're still on topic, right?

Yes! Totally on topic and I agree that Edge should come play in the unicorn forest 

Quote from: Taka on September 23, 2014, 01:33:25 PMedge should come play in the unicorn forest, we need some more havoc. too much glitter for my taste in there...

I dislike the taste of glitter.

Quote from: Taka on September 23, 2014, 01:33:25 PMi'm fairly sure we're still on topic, right?

It's my thread. We can talk about whatever I want. 

some creature nearly killed me with glitter. barely avoided a critical hit by shrouding everything in darkness and blackening all of the sparkly pink.

which is why i wanted to have something less shiny to play with.

Quote from: Edge on September 23, 2014, 01:40:19 PM
I dislike the taste of glitter.

Yes, I find it gets stuck between your teeth.

ahahahaha....

i get a feeling it would be really fun to riot with you two.
not sure what to riot against though.