Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 27, 2014, 07:24:47 AM
The essentialist narrative of binary thinking is hard to let go of. Pushback is happening though but change will take time.

Decades if not longer. Very few people mature to the point of letting go of even basic black and white thinking. To get to this level may not be possible for most people.

Quote from: Dee Walker on September 27, 2014, 07:59:56 AM
Just FYI, not weighing in on the discussion. The points I bolded are things that people have issue with as gatekeeping. Not that people shouldn't generally be of sound mind, but that they shouldn't be tested for it.

I have no opinion on the issue, just wanted to point out how things can creep in that look like gatekeeping to others.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. Being of sound mind is a legal term to protect the doctor as much as the patient. It is necessary for most legal documents, such as wills, to be considered valid and consensual. So I'm not gatekeeping the surgery, but rather protecting the doctor from a lawsuit. The waiting period I cite was only based on my personal experience with going to a good SRS surgeon. Most cannot book a surgery for next week once a patient contacts them; mine was over six months. HRT, yes, that I allow I mistyped. You're right, it should not be a requirement for this surgery. After all, there are those who might choose not to accept the medical (stroke) risks of HRT but still want the surgery.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 26, 2014, 09:28:00 PM
I DO NOT believe in gate keeping, but I do think a proper evaluation should be made to determine if it really is in the best interest of the patient. If it is found to be appropriate go ahead. 

I do not believe this comment I made is intolerant or asking too much of anyone. It seems though no matter how hard I am trying to understand your view points all you are interested in is nit picking everything I say instead of trying to meet me half way. You wonder why some binaries get upset, this is why. If you noticed anything you would see earlier I clearly indicated that this should apply to binary MtFs and FtMs as well, but I suppose it was more entertaining to find a statement somewhere that could be exploited. I for one have no further interest in trying to meet you half way. Good luck though in your pursuits for appropriate medical care that EVERYONE should have access to.

i have a quote on my desktop that goes   if i could have chosen to be male or female  i think i would simply have chosen to be happy. its such a complicated issue that to decide if a certain person should have srs or not does require rules, like them or not. i do read that some want a vagina but it seems like they are more curious than trans. some definatly have a dysphoria that doesnt include presenting as a woman which can be as bad as wanting full transformation. living as a man with a vagina could be as traumatic in the long run as presenting as a woman. the problems are great and some poor people are tasked with sorting it out.what makes one person happy as we know causes another one pain. i aslo think the docs can have a bit of tunnel vision they are cautious about stepping sideways its easier to just stay mainstream. you have to be tough to get through this process and if its not as it should be to confrunt the docs  but in a nice way.things change through knowlage and learning so untill the docs are more sure of their knowlage then its still a hard process. the current guidelines are not the best but untill they come up with new ones we are stuck with them. better to get the best you can out the system than go against it you may find you get more than you expected.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 27, 2014, 07:24:47 AM
The essentialist narrative of binary thinking is hard to let go of.

When faced with constant confrontation, Yes. So many binaries have tried to understand how NBs feel, but with the reverse intolerance of our opinion no longer feel like being a part of the dialog. So many have offered their view which was quickly shot down and labeled. Please reconsider your strategy. Demanding will not get as much cooperation as being open yourselves to others views just as you are demanding from us. 

Quote from: Jaime R D on September 27, 2014, 07:00:58 AM
Too many people, even in the trans community, are assigning gender roles and presentation to genitals, just as its done in the cis world. Funny as hell if you ask me...

I love this. Nails it imo.

I really can't and won't assign views on this as a binary, nonbiological woman. Its not my lane. I really think we need to consider that nonbinary includes many different representations and perspectives. I sure as heck wouldn't tell a neutrois-presenting individual that they shouldn't have top surgery to help with their dysphoria so I'm not going to argue about how their assigned genitalia should be representative of how they perceive their gender. Not for me to live with and therefore not for me to decide.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 27, 2014, 08:49:47 AM
I do not believe this comment I made is intolerant or asking too much of anyone. It seems though no matter how hard I am trying to understand your view points all you are interested in is nit picking everything I say instead of trying to meet me half way. You wonder why some binaries get upset, this is why. If you noticed anything you would see earlier I clearly indicated that this should apply to binary MtFs and FtMs as well, but I suppose it was more entertaining to find a statement somewhere that could be exploited. I for one have no further interest in trying to meet you half way. Good luck though in your pursuits for appropriate medical care that EVERYONE should have access to.

Jessica, I don't know whose comment this is directed at but I was not picking on your comments in particular. I do not think your comment is at all intolerant and I am not sure where you got this impression that it is...? I had seen another member mention that individuals often get treated like freaks of nature by others and I was following up my post in response to them.

I have had many horrible experiences with therapists and psychiatrists who would refuse to respect my gender identity and they would go as far as trying to convince me that I am not male, that I am silly little girl who is just delusional and having fantasies about being male. I do not want anyone else, MtF, FtM, intersex, non-binary, cisgender or otherwise to go through what I had experienced. It was awful and I am happy that I have met the psychiatrist I am currently with today, he has been accepting and kind to me for the last four years and many years to come...

How come you are bringing up the binary vs. non-binary...? It is irrelevant to the discussion, is it not...?  Nobody is finding entertainment in nitpicking your responses, I can see that there are people contributing their views to the topic as I am, just like everyone else is allowed to...?

It is not about you, dear Jessica. Please do not take people's views as a personal attack on your identity. When I speak about binary, it is binary in the sense of the rules and what is considered the norm in society, I hope I did not give the impression I was talking about transgender binaries because that wasn't my intention at all.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 27, 2014, 08:59:46 AM
When faced with constant confrontation, Yes. So many binaries have tried to understand how NBs feel, but with the reverse intolerance of our opinion no longer feel like being a part of the dialog. So many have offered their view which was quickly shot down and labeled. Please reconsider your strategy. Demanding will not get as much cooperation as being open yourselves to others views just as you are demanding from us. 

What confrontation...? Reverse intolerance...? I do not see anyone's views getting shot down or labeled...?

People are allowed to disagree with one another, that doesn't necessarily mean the other person's view is being invalidated or that their view is of no worth. I do not think it is fair to say that as a group, non-binaries are being close-minded or being demanding.

Binary... non-binary... in the end, we are all humans, sharing similar struggles... I fail to see how reasserting us vs. them mentality is going to solve anything... I can sense you are frustrated and it is understandable. I do know how hard it can be to understand the diversity of non-binaries, I have trouble with this myself! For example, I cannot understand androgynes even though my gender expression is androgynous. Though they are similar, they are most definitely not the same as one is an identity, the other is gender expression.

Is this topic triggering you, Jessica? Please, be safe and remember your limits. *bear hugs* 

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 27, 2014, 10:17:53 AM
People are allowed to disagree with one another, that doesn't necessarily mean the other person's view is being invalidated or that their view is of no worth. I do not think it is fair to say that as a group, non-binaries are being close-minded or being demanding.

The only problem with this is I accept their views or at least try to. Non binaries are flooding us with Mod reports complaining about me having an opinion. I am not doing that to them (reporting every post that conflicts with my ideas or values)) so it comes to mutual respect which I am not receiving in kind. 

I fail to see how reasserting us vs. them mentality is going to solve anything

I have no us versus them mentality at all. This is a respect issue for me and not about gender or genitals. I am trying to learn and see the opposition view on this topic while taking a large amount of negativity to my ideas and principles. I am trying to give a response based on my experiences in life which will not be like everyone else's, but in return I am being told I am a trouble maker. That is not two way dialog.  


Is this topic triggering you, Jessica? Please, be safe and remember your limits. *bear hugs*

I am very much in control of myself right now. That is not an issue. Lack of respect to my opinions is. I am only asking for the same courtesies all of you are, nothing else and that is simply to explore the topic.

PS-No Echelon it was not directed at you. I told you before we are OK and I mean it! 

Please stop viewing everything I write as a direct attack against you... Trust me if I was attacking you it would be very very obvious. I am just stating that binary narratives colour the way we think about lots of things, be it gender or good and evil, humanity has some base need to divide the world into us and them and that way of thinking is very hard to let go of.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 27, 2014, 12:34:39 PM
Please stop viewing everything I write as a direct attack against you... Trust me if I was attacking you it would be very very obvious. I am just stating that binary narratives colour the way we think about lots of things, be it gender or good and evil, humanity has some base need to divide the world into us and them and that way of thinking is very hard to let go of.

I never said or indicated it was you either sweetie. A lot of what you say actually makes sense to me. I am the same way you are, you would definitely know. Feel better now? 

Yes, I know tensions have been running high recently and I guess some of that has mingled with the shadows that have been consuming me making me view situations in a way that doesn't reflect what has been happening.

Now, if there is no one else let's make a fresh start and get around to constructive dialog without the specter of the past haunting us. Sound good?  Good!

My name is Jessica and I view myself as a binary female not because of societal pressure, but because it is who I am and what I feel is genuine to me. I chose being binary and love every aspect of it. I admit to being woefully uneducated about non binaries views of themselves and the different aspects they hope to accomplish. It is a very foreign concept to me and I hope to learn what led non binaries to this conclusion about themselves.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 27, 2014, 12:53:47 PM
Now, if there is no one else let's make a fresh start and get around to constructive dialog without the specter of the past haunting us. Sound good?  Good!

My name is Jessica and I view myself as a binary female not because of societal pressure, but because it is who I am and what I feel is genuine to me. I chose being binary and love every aspect of it. I admit to being woefully uneducated about non binaries views of themselves and the different aspects they hope to accomplish. It is a very foreign concept to me and I hope to learn what led non binaries to this conclusion about themselves.

I posted something in the b/nb similarities thread that may help you get a better understanding. At least it might help feed the discussion 

Hi! I'm Stephanie, pre-op bi-trans mostly binary leaning MTF ( I think )

 
Just asking that everyone respects that other people have a different point of view. If you disagree with something that someone says then educate don't attack. If you don't understand please be careful not to invalidate someone else's experience/feelings. Thank you

Frankly, I find this to be one of the most thought provoking threads yet regarding binary/non-binary issues.  I think that the question posed by OP is really a blanket question that could never be answered with a blanket answer.

There is one point that I believe was addressed concerning the fact that there are FTM who have not had SRS, which would result in a particular bodily state that could *possibly* be desirable to someone.  There is a parallel to this situation that I can plainly see to my own, which is,  I could never, with my own brain, understand why somebody would want to live as a man.  I think this might actually be a key here because we are all different, with our own personal internal gender that we identify with.  Because we all identify differently on this spectrum, it may be difficult for us to understand the position of another who desires to be in a different place on that spectrum.

If we reverse the question, should a female be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as male?  This would mean we have a woman who presents as a woman but, through the miracles of SRS, has a penis.  There are many MTF that want SRS and some who do not and actually want to keep their male genitalia.  It could be conceivable that a woman who was born with a vagina has a desire to be this specific way.  Should this be allowed?  I can't really allow myself to answer this question for somebody else. 

I myself definitely would want to get SRS and can admit that if I was to present as male, it would not be by choice but instead some horrible compromise in order to maintain a financial situation or something; however, I admit it is possible that somebody may completely feel like a man with a vagina on the inside and be unable to cope with having a penis instead.  Although possible, because I live on the female side of the spectrum, I don't believe I'm capable of understanding why!  If I could I would present female every day all the time and have SRS, but my guess is SRS is a long long way off for me.

Quote from: AnonyMs on September 26, 2014, 10:28:52 PM
Hi peky, while respecting your right to your opinion, I'd like to slightly modify it to express how I read it

I think men to want to become women should not be allowed to because, in my opinion, such a position indicates and underlying mental condition that needs to be resolved first, least they find themselves regretting later on

... and that is why we, MTF transsexuals, have to pass the gates of a psychiatric examination, the real life experience, hormone therapy, more psychiatric examinations before being granted permission to get SRS....

All these gates are set up the way they are because GID is considered a mental illness

  I request we keep on track here and keep "Body integrity identity disorder" out of the discussion please.

Quote from: Ms Grace on September 27, 2014, 07:27:19 PM
I request we keep on track here and keep "Body integrity identity disorder" out of the discussion please.

Sorry Ma'am... offending post removed !