Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 01:44:20 PM

I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary. Most said they really don't talk about it or go into detail with anyone. This is exactly the reason our two communities do not understand each other. I came to this topic hoping to see how others explain it so I could understand it. Not one post was clear or had any information I could use to figure this out. I am trying, but if it is not talked about amongst yourselves how in the world can I get a grasp on it. Do you see the problem? I will watch this topic and hope someone gives me the information I can use to understand your community. Until then I am still in the dark. I am trying though. 

Jessica I COMPLETELY understand what you are trying to say. I don't think I expressed myself well in my original reply. If someone seems to be genuinely interested in listening, I am more than willing to try and explain my identity to the best of my ability. The issue I (and probably a lot of other folks) run into is that explaining a non-binary gender identity can be really emotionally exhausting. It can often seem like many cisgendered people, even within queer circles, don't really want to put forth the effort to understand. That can feel incredibly invalidating. My experience with binary trans* people is that they are more willing to try to understand, which is wonderful, but they still sometimes have difficulty understanding.

I am going to try to answer your question a little more specifically. I am Genderqueer. That means that I do not identify with the sex I was assigned at birth, female, nor do I identify as a (trans) male. My gender presentation often fluctuates with how I am feeling on a particular day. It means that I experience dysphoria, sometimes in different ways on different days (for example, yay boobs on Tuesday, why the hell are these here on Wednesday.) It means that a part of me cringes whenever someone refers to me as "she," but I don't really want to be referred to as "he" either.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 01:44:20 PM
I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary.

Quote from: EchelonHuntI present as androgynous but my gender identity is neither male, female or androgyne.

Jessica,

Please let me clarify this post more because it appears you may have misunderstood my original post I had told my friend that I present as androgynous because that is my gender expression to the world that I enjoy expressing, however my gender identity is genderless, hence being neither male, female or androgyne. A genderless (or any non-binary for that matter!) can have a gender expression of female, male, androgynous, gender-neutral or they may create their own gender expression entirely.

Gender Identity =/= Gender Expression.

I was born into this world as a biological premature female with androgenisation, a condition where my female anatomy downstairs resembled a boy's, a large clitoris that resembled a tiny penis and large labia majora that could pass for a scrotum. This appearance downstairs prompted me to grow up believing I was a boy. Puberty smacked me in the face with the reality that I was going to grow up into a woman. I was horrified but put aside the boy identity and tried my best to conform to the rules of society. I failed miserably and this brought on depression and suicidal thoughts that continued until I was 18. I thought, if I saw no future as a woman, why not try being a man? 

After all, the FtM surgeries had what I desired (removal of female breasts and genitalia) that I was denied as a biological female because, "You might regret it and want children someday." The decision over my body had been decided by doctors - I had no say in this matter, I felt it was unfair. I thought I was male, no, I convinced myself I was male. For six years, I believed this to be true until after four years on testosterone, I got slammed with intense body dysphoria for passing as a male. Yes, you read that correctly! That and a relationship where my partner put unrealistic expectations on me, expecting me to be a walking example of a sexist, hyper-masculine cis-guy - something I am not, I had to question myself and my gender identity...!

I came to learn that trying to live as female or male, both brought me misery and only alienated me further from the concept of both. I found I identified as ... neither. I realized then that I must be genderless. I was incorrect in my assumption that if I had to remove my female breasts and genitalia, that I must be a man. No, no, I couldn't be further from the truth!

It meant I desired to be physically sexless.

Having a genderless identity, a sexless body and presenting in an androgynous manner to the world... this is me. After 24 years, I have finally found myself and have never been happier.

Jessica, I do not expect you to understand this. I am not reluctant in explaining to others about being non-binary - many of my FB friends know this story as I have told them on the aforementioned FB status and my best friend knows the brief version of this as well.

This topic was originally created as I wanted to get a genuine idea of how non-binaries explain their identities to others. As expressed in the original post, I am well aware there will be people who cannot understand such a concept no matter how much they read.

It may be that there never will be a magical explanation that will suddenly make non-binaries make sense to you. If it doesn't make a lick of sense now, it's likely that it may never will. It doesn't mean you have to stop trying to understand though.

For example, I can understand FtMs in their desires for top surgery/bottom surgery, their body dysphoria but I cannot understand their desires to be seen as men or masculine. I can understand MtFs in their desires for laser hair removal/electrolysis/VFS, their dysphoria over their voice, their interest in make-up but I cannot understand their desires to be seen as women or feminine.

Just like I cannot understand the concept behind love, sex, relationships, marriage, family and having children.

It does not mean I reject these ideals, it just means I simply do not understand them but I accept them for what they are and I won't judge others for liking those ideals, as long as they do not push these ideals onto me.  I may ask others their feelings behind their ideals in order to try to understand why they prefer such ideals but it is not crucial to understand their motives/reasoning behind their chosen ideals, as I cannot comprehend the ideal itself.

I came to being non-binary via what started out as a fairly normal MTF transition. But there came a point where I realised I'd climbed out of one box (Man) that didn't fit and was trying to jam myself into another box (Woman) that also didn't fit.

I wear the label woman, because it prevents explanations and is close enough.. Certainly closer than man. But in the end, neither is 100% accurate.

Quote from: Edge on September 28, 2014, 09:55:55 PM
Er... This may just be me, but I think if one understands one trans person, then they understand one trans person (binary or nonbinary). What it means to be trans and what it means to be any particular gender(s) or none is pretty personal and depends on the individual. The same terms mean different things to different people.
If that makes sense.

Yeah, this

It starts with being true to yourself and fully embracing the truth that you are nonbinary.

Then, living authentically in the full power of who you are.

Then in that authenticity becoming bullet proof when your gender is question so that it no longer even matters, for what you are is what you are, and if questioned, we are still secure in who we are.  Some will understand, most will not.

Finally, in that authenticity we describe our trans experience.  Some can put themselves into our shoes, some cannot.  However, calling truth invalid is dead wrong, and triggers all hell.

We all have our own truth and that truth must be respected.

How do I explain my identity?

I live it.  There are plenty of posts that reveal who I am, transparently, vulnerably, and authentically.

I just am.  Those that can accept, will, those that cannot, wont. 

So, I remain, genderqueer, genderfluid, mtf trans, gender free, and no op.  With a core that remains integrated and is still assimilating all of these components, originally lost by repression, fear, anger, all the cluttered emotions that stop us from knowing ourselves and allow us to self decieve, which is the beginning of trans disaster.

My  truth is not to be disrespected.  Questions can be asked, and explanations given, but to be put on the defensive is unacceptable.  I do it to no one and I expect no one to do it to me.

Satinjoy is back.

Nails out, hair down, heart wide open.

1. I start by explaining that non-binary people exist.

"There are some people whose understanding of their own gender place them neither as completely male nor completely female."

2. If someone is curious, I explain all the ways that non-binary gender can be experienced. E.g. Agender, two-spirit, genderfluid, demigirl/demiguy, bigender, neutrois, etc

3. If I am close to them and trust them, I will occasionally give a glimpse of my own gender.

"Yes, I want to be seen and interacted with as a female. But I've never seen myself as completely female. There is a part of me that still thinks of myself as male."

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 28, 2014, 03:37:46 PM
Is it a requirement that we teach binaries who can't figure something out?

No, not a requirement. However if we would like binary folk to understand us, then teaching them is THE ONLY WAY they will ever understand. To expect them to come across the correct understanding on their own would be ... optimistic. More likely they would get it more wrong they than they would get it right unless they hear it right from us.

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2014, 08:51:07 AM
No, not a requirement. However if we would like binary folk to understand us, then teaching them is THE ONLY WAY they will ever understand. To expect them to come across the correct understanding on their own would be ... optimistic. More likely they would get it more wrong they than they would get it right unless they hear it right from us.

but that's just it, right? for a lot of people, me included, i've lost my patience for teaching people who are supposed to be my "allies". i already don't trust binary people, let alone cis people, to understand even after i expend my time putting my life on display for their convenience. at a certain point i stop being concerned about whether they "understand" me, especially if i feel like i can't even be promised the kind of basic decency that should come unconditionally, that shouldn't be contingent on me splaying myself open until somebody else is satisfied.

so when it comes to the original question? i don't. i don't explain it, i don't talk about it, because even within trans communities when i've seen the few people talking about being nonbinary in the same way as me out in the open they've been asked to explain their lives, their bodies, their feelings so that other people can understand, like, what, like it's some sort of gawking show. and maybe it's possible that binary people could understand it, maybe, after you've been put through the ringer in the same way that i have, had the exact same sets of experiences that i have, that it isn't inherently futile to try to educate people because maybe they could get a glimmer of what i would say to explain myself. and that's making the generous assumption that binary people even could understand what i'm on about. but honestly, that's not what i want. it's not what i'm after. i don't care about understanding anymore; i've been hurt far too much by people who "only wanted to understand" for me to register that as an innocent desire. in fact sometimes i don't even want other people to understand, because i'm afraid if they think they get it they'll go out and try to educate others in a way that's inaccurate.

it just isn't worth the pain anymore.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 29, 2014, 01:09:47 AM
I came to being non-binary via what started out as a fairly normal MTF transition. But there came a point where I realised I'd climbed out of one box (Man) that didn't fit and was trying to jam myself into another box (Woman) that also didn't fit.

I wear the label woman, because it prevents explanations and is close enough.. Certainly closer than man. But in the end, neither is 100% accurate.

Amen to that line of thought, I totally concur! If anyone was cheeky enough to even bother asking me I'd simply say,

This over here is man................And that over there is woman, and I fit somewhere in between.

It's a simple enough answer and really doesn't require a lot of in-depth analysis and explanation. If that't too tough to get then TS!

Quote from: Shantel on September 29, 2014, 09:41:13 AM
Amen to that line of thought, I totally concur! If anyone was cheeky enough to even bother asking me I'd simply say,

This over here is man................And that over there is woman, and I fit somewhere in between.

It's a simple enough answer and really doesn't require a lot of in-depth analysis and explanation. If that't too tough to get then TS!

Ditto My best friend understood that quite easily when I told her.

It's an identity that is either in-between genders or neither gender, don't know how that can be hard to understand. Even once upon a time, I thought, "What's genderqueer?" I once thought it was an odd term and never really thought of it much. Now I am glad I have because it has paved the path to my true identity and now I can accept myself... all I had to do was open my eyes and my heart!

Plus it got me the chance to meet all you wonderful people! I couldn't be more grateful if I tried! 

Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 29, 2014, 09:45:41 AM
Ditto My best friend understood that quite easily when I told her.

It's an identity that is either in-between genders or neither gender, don't know how that can be hard to understand. Even once upon a time, I thought, "What's genderqueer?" I once thought it was an odd term and never really thought of it much. Now I am glad I have because it has paved the path to my true identity and now I can accept myself... all I had to do was open my eyes and my heart!

Plus it got me the chance to meet all you wonderful people! I couldn't be more grateful if I tried! 

That goes both ways Jacey! 

Quote from: kinz on September 29, 2014, 09:28:08 AM
but that's just it, right? for a lot of people, me included, i've lost my patience for teaching people who are supposed to be my "allies". i already don't trust binary people, let alone cis people, to understand even after i expend my time putting my life on display for their convenience. at a certain point i stop being concerned about whether they "understand" me, especially if i feel like i can't even be promised the kind of basic decency that should come unconditionally, that shouldn't be contingent on me splaying myself open until somebody else is satisfied.

so when it comes to the original question? i don't. i don't explain it, i don't talk about it, because even within trans communities when i've seen the few people talking about being nonbinary in the same way as me out in the open they've been asked to explain their lives, their bodies, their feelings so that other people can understand, like, what, like it's some sort of gawking show. and maybe it's possible that binary people could understand it, maybe, after you've been put through the ringer in the same way that i have, had the exact same sets of experiences that i have, that it isn't inherently futile to try to educate people because maybe they could get a glimmer of what i would say to explain myself. and that's making the generous assumption that binary people even could understand what i'm on about. but honestly, that's not what i want. it's not what i'm after. i don't care about understanding anymore; i've been hurt far too much by people who "only wanted to understand" for me to register that as an innocent desire. in fact sometimes i don't even want other people to understand, because i'm afraid if they think they get it they'll go out and try to educate others in a way that's inaccurate.

it just isn't worth the pain anymore.

Seems that I resonate with this more than I would like to admit.
It is something that has been learned now by experience here with me too, as opposed to where I started off.

It moves my focus entirely to the non binary discussion.  Where there is the opportunity to be reached.

I started off in the mtf section so if I had not been reached out to by the nonbinary, there could have been real issues for me.  Because I knew I was different but not where I needed to be.  Because I was cracking up thinking full mtf transition was inevitable.   Which is against my shrinks take on it.  I am documented mtf nonbinary.  I am diagnosed nonbinary trans, hormones required.

If anyone contests that here, it better be by pm.  I will not tolerate another disruption questioning my authenticity.  I have had it with that.
Thinking about it all.  Wondering about it all.

(Late to the party, as  usual...)

1.  I don't think it's possible to explain "what non-binary is", because, while "binary" is defined by what it is, "non-binary" is defined by what it isn't, and there are a lot more ways (maybe infinitely many) to not be binary than there are to be binary.  All you know when someone says that they're "non binary" is that you should avoid assuming that any particular aspect of binary cis or trans experience applies to them (or doesn't apply, either.)

2.  Put me in the column of people who don't bother to explain or even to go to any trouble to make sure I'm recognized as "non binary."  My gender identity (or rather, lack of any gender identity) is just the latest in a long series of things about me that almost nobody is willing to go to any effort to understand, and which even those who do try don't succeed, because their preconceptions are stronger than their ability to understand.

Maybe that's why I've never gotten worked up over what pronouns people use.  As long as they don't seem to be trying to put me down with their choice of pronoun, I don't really care.  I know who and what I am (well, to the extent anybody does), and neither is a worse (or better) fit for who I am inside.


Yeah, I wish there were people who really understood me.  But, to quote Suzie Derkins: while I'm wishing, I wish I had a pony.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 29, 2014, 01:09:47 AM
I came to being non-binary via what started out as a fairly normal MTF transition. But there came a point where I realised I'd climbed out of one box (Man) that didn't fit and was trying to jam myself into another box (Woman) that also didn't fit.

Kelly this is so right on for me too.  Acting like a man felt like being strangled with one of those lovely wool neck ties.  Why would I escape one prison to sign up for another gender straightjacket?  Accepting and rediscovery of one's true self and unique expression is a priceless freedom that we work hard for.

There have been plenty of thread suggestions and real life experiences where what is implied is that "I am more legitimately trans than you are because......" just fill in the blank.

One of my worst public experiences came at the hands of another trans woman who decided I wasn't trying hard enough and needed a dressing down from one who did it right.  I have been thinking of creating a "100% Pass Card" for those worthy achievers but it feels a little snarky.

None of us need to be on the defensive when solidarity and support are so much more helpful for building community.

I identify as genderfluid and transmasculine. People have a really hard time with the first concept, which I understand, although I do wish I fewer people told me that I was imagining things, just playing at being trans, etc. Most folks accept my personal experiences with gender fluidity once I've explained why I feel that way, though: for me, it's all about my physical dysphoria. When I play the "Genie Gives Me Three Wishes" game in the shower, do I ask for my perfect cis male body? Sometimes. Often, even.

But there are other times when the idea of being male is almost as frighting and repulsive as being female. During those times, any sort of gender marker feels alien. I want true neutrality-- not some combo of both. The girl in my voice is wrong, but so is the boy that I've carefully cultivated in my clothes, my hair. People will sometimes assure me that dysphoria fluctuates, and that the absence of FTM-typical dysphoria is standard, but for me, it's not just that. I have a whole different kind of dysphoria in those times -- one which points me towards a body without gender at all.

Like EchelonHunt, my non-binary identity is an agender one, and the movement between that and the male is why I typically call myself non-binary and transmasculine, but not FTM.

In less physical terms, the other way I sometimes explain it is this: Imagine going outside and running into a friend, who promptly compliments you on your yellow hat. You frown and look confused -- you're not wearing a yellow hat. The friend, being the perceptive type, promptly apologizes. "I'm sorry, [name]! I meant your purple hat!" He's wearing a purple hat too, and well, now it's just awkward, so you smile and walk away. Except you're not wearing a purple hat either. You're pretty sure you're not wearing a hat at all.

Socially, that's what agenderedness feels to me. The weird double take when someone insists I'm "wearing a hat." Am I? Wait, no! It's not that I'm a girl and it's not that I'm a boy. I'm a person, no gender accessories.

Deep breath.

Where did the intensity and bitterness come from.  It should not be part of my core.

To the OP question:

I had to do this and I continue to have to do this with my wife.

I explain I am not a woman trapped in a male body.

I explain that in my specific case I am a DES birth anomolized baby, with my endocrine, central nervous system, skeleton, and God knows what else, DES converted to female. 

This has created the physical foundation for my nonbinary gender understanding.

My own gender is beginning to become very personal because of too much questioning and triggering.  But what is written above, is the truth, and allows one to see that there is more going on than what is between the legs, and there is complexity.  If there is interest by the person I am talking too, I will explain the triune nature of my personal trans experience, the core or center or even soul, the physical sence of being a female wired transsexual, and the fluidity that I experience as I react to the world around me, comfortably and authentically shifting from one gender nuance to another, one presentation to another, one life experience to another.  All valid, all me.  The core watches and is amuzed, and in the last crisis seems to have integrated my so called male and female components, SJ or Satinjoy, melding it into Satinjoy.  But all these things fall short to describing me.  I am too difficult to describe.  I am just me.

But they usually understand DES conversions, and in their binary natures, they grasp that I am technically physically half male and half female.

But I consider myself to be simply a nonbinary mtf hormone transitioned genderqueer genderfluid genderfree transsexual with multiple authentic presentations.

Simple?

Not.

Comfortable?

YES.

Defensive?   When it is accepted by others as my truth, no.  But at this point, I am still quite raw over this.  I have not quite let go of the anger and frustration I feel at the moment, motives of others notwithstanding, what I will say is that gender is a deeply personal experience that should not be questioned.  Asked about, yes.  Questioned, devalued or demeaned, no.  Implied to be inauthentic?  Look out.  I paid one hell of a price to be authentic, all of us have.

Crap it took my shrink a year and a half to fully get me and what makes my gender tick.  How can I expect one that is untrained to even glimpse it.  Lucky for me I have a really, really good shrink.

So long story short, I land hard on the DES issue.  I don't know how I would handle it if I did not have the DES thing.

--Nails out hair down living true.

Satinjoy

Quote from: Satinjoy on September 29, 2014, 03:39:46 PM
So long story short, I land hard on the DES issue.  I don't know how I would handle it if I did not have the DES thing.

--Nails out hair down living true.

Satinjoy

I and many, many others don't have the DES issue. We cope. How? For me, it's simply remembering that the human species is able to produce all kinds of diversity.. I just got one of the more interesting examples.

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 29, 2014, 05:00:33 PM
I and many, many others don't have the DES issue. We cope. How? For me, it's simply remembering that the human species is able to produce all kinds of diversity.. I just got one of the more interesting examples.

In my book, your ability to stand up for just who you are with no excuses pinned on physical stuff, makes you a hero.

It has to be harder for you.  I take the easier way out.

You have my deepest respect.  As I do with all  the courageous folks willing to be authentic to themselves and live their truth.

--Satinjoy

The box description which I stole from someone here on forum, I don't know who, I take from everyone, learn from everyone... but that can work.  That the binary sees one side or sees two sides, but we see the entire object, and as we dig deeper into our gender cores we see into the center of the object and from that center see it box from the inside out.

But the idea of the box can be interesting.

As Ativan likes to say, gender descriptions in language is difficult.  But in images, we can sometimes express facets of our experience.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Sorry for poking my nose in here, but there was just something I kinda wanted to say.

It's very hard to have to keep explaining to people why you are who you are, and who that is. The feeling from a few people in this thread is that they're sick of jumping through hoops just to be able to be themselves, and find it hard to have to keep explaining themselves over and over and over. I myself come from a largely binary perspective, and I have a hard enough job explaining to folks the reason I'm not who they always thought I was, so I can only imagine the utter annoyance and "I so want to ram your head through a wall" feelings that some non-binary folks go through trying to first get someone to see a way of being beyond their own preconceptions before even attempting to go on to talk about themselves. I am sorry you are faced with that sometimes.

I've learned during my time here that sometimes it's better not to ask. And that's hard for me, being someone who prefers questioning and curiosity. Nevertheless, sometimes it's better to just to watch people talking amongst themselves. Listen to what they're saying... and through that I've learned a lot. And continue to learn a lot. But elsewhere there sometimes isn't that opportunity, and people who want information sometimes have no other choice.

What I would like to say, really, is to try not to think harshly of people who ask you a bunch of questions and make you feel like your life has to be explained away. Even if your answer is silence, or something along the lines of "I don't feel comfortable talking about it". That's fair enough. Everyone has the right to set their own boundaries. But the fact that they ask has a lot of significance sometimes. Says a lot about who you're interacting with.

It's when people don't ask, start assuming, and treat you a certain way based on those assumptions... that's when things can start to get real bad. That's something I learned the hard way, and I don't want it to be something others have to see for themselves.