Quote from: Ell on September 14, 2007, 01:28:21 AMGender is not a social construct, per se. if it were, then it would be like me saying, "Yvonne, your personality is a social construct."
   then you would say, "No it's not."
   then i would say, "Then neither is your gender, because your gender is part of your personality."

you went on to add that if gender were not a social construct, then it would have to be biological "no luck there either." actually, gender is biological, in exactly the same degree that the mind is biological. the mind is an aspect of the brain, the personality is an aspect of the mind, and gender is an aspect of the personality.

I agree. This was well stated.

I cannot know what it feels like to identify with neither male nor female, I doubt whether I can even imagine what it would feel like. But just because it's outside my personal little experience is no reason to dismiss the possibility of it being just as real for others as my crossed-wire gender is for me. I keep hearing cisgender people saying they can't know what it feels like to be trans like me. Well, that holds up a mirror for me to understand all the better what it's like to have an inner gender feeling that others don't understand, reminding me to be accepting of what androgynes say about themselves.

Since I'm bisexual, I can relate, because my sexuality is often disrespected by both gay and straight who can only imagine having one-directional sexuality. Another analogy is of course intersex as has been mentioned a lot already. If sexuality and sexual genotype/phenotype can have recognized in-between settings, why not gender? Actually, on this basis I would find it bizarre and inconsistent to reject androgyny out of hand.


Posted on: September 15, 2007, 05:22:10 AM

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Quote from: Chris on September 14, 2007, 02:13:01 AM
gotta put dis quote here to.

"I would like to be known as a person who is concerned about freedom and equality and justice and prosperity for all people".  Rosa Parks

a woman with agood heart.

I love you, brother, you have a beautiful way of expressing deep truths. Every time I look at you I see a man with a good heart.

the intersex point is interesting, if sex can muddle, why not gender? well its entirely possible, BUT when i spoke to an IS specialist endocrinologist about the types of patients hes seen (completely outside of confidentiality laws don't worry) none have been gender variant, the patients he saw were wishing to stay their external gender, or fix their body to match their internal and mental gender but that is just this specialist.
on the topic of gender being a social construct. i dispute this with Yvonne. Gender has existed across time and societies. EVERY society has males and females. now this can be wrong, and has been seen as wrong historically, with Roman and Greek transitions through to modern times. what has changed, and what is constructed, is _gender roles_. These have changed and are fluid to an extent. what men and women must do, wear, behave like, is the construct. and its fairly engraned in 21st century western society. tribes the pacific islands have been known to have the men look after the children gossiping and being the sex objects, while the women fought, protected the camp, and essentially gang raped males. odd, but another society. I think what is important here, if you suggest gender itself is a social construct. i say no, gender is intrinsically linked to sex, and if it wasnt so linked, there wouldnt be such a massive need for transexual people to change their sex to match thier gender. I think we all need to get back to the crux of this argument, because were severely off topic.
R

Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
the intersex point is interesting, if sex can muddle, why not gender? well its entirely possible, BUT when i spoke to an IS specialist endocrinologist about the types of patients hes seen (completely outside of confidentiality laws don't worry) none have been gender variant,

Then again, that may or may not indicate something. The patients who discuss their gender identity with this endocrinologist are not necessarily an unbiased sample, there may or may not be a correlation between the intersexual and intergender conditions, and so on. I don't know -- and I have seen no evidence that anyone else knows either, which is really a pity.

Quote
i say no, gender is intrinsically linked to sex, and if it wasnt so linked, there wouldnt be such a massive need for transexual people to change their sex to match thier gender.

Yes, definitely -- but also not really. Gender is undoubtedly linked to sex, but that link is not all there is to gender: it is also, and to a large extent, a social construct. As a result, gender identity is tied to both sex and gender roles, and just how much these aspects are emphasised varies very much. This difference in emphasis can be seen even in people who conform to the binary gender system. For the prototypical transsexual, gender idenitity has a strong link to sex. For others, the emphasis is very much on the side of gender role; these people are commonly labelled transgendered.

This interplay of physical and cultural aspects means that there is a whole spectrum of possibilities, and it is no longer self-evident that there are just two gender identities to choose from. It is possible to divide the gender landscape into two, three, or even more sections. If you are interested, there's a current thread on this issue on the androgyne forum.

I, personally, find a five-gender system (consisting of male, female, bigender, ambigender and null-gender) pretty useful, given the mix of people who frequent these forums. Still, I can describe my own identity using a system with less genders as well -- it's just that in a two-gender system I'll have to consider myself a rather untypical female, while in a five-gender system I'm much closer to the centre of the ambigender range.

  Nfr

but does being an 'untypical female' make you anything but female? I understand that people feel identities require thier own banner to wave. but for example, couldnt the binary system accomodate these identities? i mean, feminine men, masculine females, 'aytypical' members of both genders, do people feel that these categories are too broad? or just that they WANT to stand out and be differnet? Lets face it, the body can be either male or female to an extent. and by this, why do some of the gender variant groups feel the need to change thier body to that of one of the binary, and then profess a desire to be both or neither? dont take my comments as offensive, im simply raising some questions ive seen through this discussion and would like to find how people relate to this.
R

Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 09:50:22 AM
but does being an 'untypical female' make you anything but female?

That's a very good question, and I spent quite a bit of time over the summer thinking about it. The answer I ended up with was that I'm far enough from both the prototypical male and female that the best choice for me is to admit that a more fine-grained conceptualisation of gender works much better than the traditional binary system. Despite this, I do realise that identity-wise I'm slightly closer to the female end of the spectrum than the male, so my identity is better described as female in binary terms.

Quote
couldnt the binary system accomodate these identities?

If necessary, yes. However, it's rather cumbersome to state (to continue using me as an example) that I'm a female with a significant number of male personality traits, who prefers a gender-neutral role, and can most of the time cope pretty well in the male body I was born in. Male-bodied ambigender is much easier.

Quote
do people feel that these categories are too broad? or just that they WANT to stand out and be differnet?

I have no desire to stand out. The thing is that in my case the binary system was misleading. When I first came here, I thought of myself in terms of a MtF transsexual, mainly because my body image issues point to that direction. In the end that didn't work out: I am quite confident that I wouldn't be any better off after transitioning than I am now.

So yes, the categories are too broad. It's been hard to make up my mind on whether I'm a masculine woman or a feminine man, and since there are a number of people in similar circumstances, the obvious conclusion is that there's something wrong with the gender system.

Quote
why do some of the gender variant groups feel the need to change thier body to that of one of the binary, and then profess a desire to be both or neither?

Because gender identity is linked not just to physical sex but also to social gender roles?

  Nfr

Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 09:50:22 AM
but does being an 'untypical female' make you anything but female? I understand that people feel identities require thier own banner to wave. but for example, couldnt the binary system accomodate these identities? i mean, feminine men, masculine females, 'aytypical' members of both genders, do people feel that these categories are too broad? or just that they WANT to stand out and be differnet? Lets face it, the body can be either male or female to an extent. and by this, why do some of the gender variant groups feel the need to change thier body to that of one of the binary, and then profess a desire to be both or neither? dont take my comments as offensive, im simply raising some questions ive seen through this discussion and would like to find how people relate to this.
R

Hi Racheal. Good questions. I can only answer these as they relate to myself.

The problem with your arguments for me is that I don't identify with being male or female. Therefore the binary system does not accommodate me. It would be so easy and simple if I did fit, but I don't. Just as you can't choose to be transgendered I did not choose to be not male and not female at the same time. I guess someone could say I am a feminine male or a masculine female (which would it be anyway?), yet to me this is utterly offensive and just feels totally wrong.

I don't want to be different, but being called male or female is as offensive to me as it would be for a woman constantly being mistaken for a man or a man constantly being mistaken for a woman. I imagine this is how many transsexuals probably feel all the time until they change their body to match their identity. The simple truth is I am not a male and I am not a female. Trying to push me into one of those groups is as abhorrent as cutting off a non-transgendered boys penis at birth and raising him as a girl.

Body change for me is in the direction of female but I have no desire to completely change my body to female. If I did that I would still be in the same boat as I am now. It would feel as wrong as my birth sex. I have not heard of other gender variants doing a total change except when they have mistakenly bought into the gender binary and feel they have to be one or the other, often with tragic results. This happens because the pressure is enormous to conform to the binary system. You're feeling it now in your struggle to try and rationalise things in terms of male and female even though you have people telling you straight out that they are not male or female. It is a bit of a mind bender eh?

 i wonder how many of those who have had regrets post surgery mistakenly felt they had to be either or? ill admit, to me, the world is that black and white, in my eyes, im a female, heck, im a fair image of a tomboy, i play a combat sport, listen to rock, wear baggy jeans and hoodies a lot of the time. but im female, simple as that, ill accept anyones personal position on gender as long as they accept mine. just dont expect me to agree or feel the same way. any system that accomodates male and female, as well as others is ok, but those who choose to suggest that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system are a tad delusional. there are billions of happy men, and women, and happy inbetweens and neithers. live and let live i say. i do admit that the concept of gender facinates me, ive had an interesting brush with the subject most of my peers havent and i like to investigate it a bit out of personal curiosity. to me, male personality traits, in a female, doesnt make her less of a woman, and female in male doesnt make them less of a man, but well rounded indeviduals in a modern society. I do not fully understand the feelings of intergender and nulgender people, i accept them, but dont undestand, the way they cannot understand my happyness and contented view of 'female'. as i said, this topic needs to learn the phrase 'live and let live' there is prejudice within a community of peoples more educated in gender, and i feel its sad that people on both sides of the line, both non binary belivers, and binary belivers. ALL of us need to re evaluate our response to this subject, accept the views of others , and compromise to an extent.
R

I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.

Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.

Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 05:48:39 PM
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.

Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.

I identify with this statement very much.  I thought the binary people were play acting and I really couldn't follow or copy it.

Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 03:00:47 PM
Hi Racheal. Good questions. I can only answer these as they relate to myself.

The problem with your arguments for me is that I don't identify with being male or female. Therefore the binary system does not accommodate me. It would be so easy and simple if I did fit, but I don't. Just as you can't choose to be transgendered I did not choose to be not male and not female at the same time. I guess someone could say I am a feminine male or a masculine female (which would it be anyway?), yet to me this is utterly offensive and just feels totally wrong.

I don't want to be different, but being called male or female is as offensive to me as it would be for a woman constantly being mistaken for a man or a man constantly being mistaken for a woman. I imagine this is how many transsexuals probably feel all the time until they change their body to match their identity. The simple truth is I am not a male and I am not a female. Trying to push me into one of those groups is as abhorrent as cutting off a non-transgendered boys penis at birth and raising him as a girl.

Body change for me is in the direction of female but I have no desire to completely change my body to female. If I did that I would still be in the same boat as I am now. It would feel as wrong as my birth sex. I have not heard of other gender variants doing a total change except when they have mistakenly bought into the gender binary and feel they have to be one or the other, often with tragic results. This happens because the pressure is enormous to conform to the binary system. You're feeling it now in your struggle to try and rationalise things in terms of male and female even though you have people telling you straight out that they are not male or female. It is a bit of a mind bender eh?

You are a very interesting person and articulate, and i enjoy hearing what you have to say.

-ell

nicksister, rebis, exactly, its that polar, and i dont think  we can truely  make the other groups understand US, be that males or females, or the many other variants of gender (im not being derogatory, there are too many to list). Personally im female, i really dont think about my gender much, other than i am what i am. granted ive had to change my body, but my gender and personality are just me, and i honestly care about my gender as much as my peers, its just something that is. i cant describe it, i know being female sucks in this world, comparatively, but its just my lot in life, and ill do my best to overcome things. I find it amuseing that people on here assume everyone intimately understands the concepts behind gender, and meanings, we dont, were normal people with our own views. im a 20 year old college girl, what the HELL do i know about gender? it doesnt help that im a geography student either! Where this topic is going wrong, is trying to make people understand concepts that are alien to THEM. this doesnt make these concepts and ideas wrong, just different. and i dont think there is a person on these forums, or in the world who can bridge the gap and understand gender the way we understand our own. Life is too short to argue with eachother about who is more right... its like two children in a sandpit, throwing sand at one another to deflect the sand of the other, it will contine as long as there is sand. as long as gender exists, it will be debated and disputed and systems critisized and aplauded. but when we all start bickering like children, que custodes custodies? we should know better.
R

Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 05:48:39 PM
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.

Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.

Dang, NS!!! you just might be a genius.
*kowtows and accidentally knocks head on floor*

you're giving me goose bumps here.

-ell

Quote from: Rebis on September 30, 2007, 11:21:08 PM

Quote from: NickSister on September 30, 2007, 05:48:39 PM
I totally agree with you that suggesting that these 'binaries' dont exist even in a more refined system is a tad delusional. The hard bit is accepting that there could be more to it than that. I also believe that gender identity can be irrespective of behaviour i.e. your behaviour does not define your gender.

Interestingly I view those that fit the binary similar to your view of gender variants. I don't really understand the feelings of males and females in regard to their gender. Growing up I thought everyone was like me but they were just following these gender rules like sheep. I don't know what it is like to fit in that binary and I imagine those that are part of it hardly notice, except for the transgendered of course, it is just something that is.

I identify with this statement very much.  I thought the binary people were play acting and I really couldn't follow or copy it.

I can relate.  Throughout my whole life I haven't understood gender-related distinctions.  I've come to the conclusion that it's because they don't exist in me.

Rachael, I agree with you that, say, liking art and cooking doesn't make a man less of a man, and that liking martial arts and guns doesn't make a woman less of a woman.  But to quote Kate Bornstein: "What is a man?  What is a woman?  Why do we have to be one or the other?"

Quote from: Ell on October 01, 2007, 09:04:26 PM
Dang, NS!!! you just might be a genius.
*kowtows and accidentally knocks head on floor*

you're giving me goose bumps here.

-ell

Thank you 'the' ell! You have made my day.

I'm just glad we are starting to find things everyone can understand and relate to.

Quote from: NickSister on October 02, 2007, 02:22:01 AM

Quote from: Ell on October 01, 2007, 09:04:26 PM
Dang, NS!!! you just might be a genius.
*kowtows and accidentally knocks head on floor*

you're giving me goose bumps here.

-ell

Thank you 'the' ell! You have made my day.

I'm just glad we are starting to find things everyone can understand and relate to.

you're welcome, my dear. this thread, and your remarks here, are incredible. i am proud to know you. one would hope that this thread will be printed and sent to all of the researchers who are currently working on the SOC, to all gender researchers at the university level, and to gender therapists everywhere. it may not be what they want to hear, but it's definitely something that they need to hear.

Great work.

-ell

   I think we have several really excellent threads on this site that we should send to the  scientists, doctors, and researchers.
   We also have the people to provide info to fill in the gaps.

hi .  i am noeleena .  well this is a can of worms  . & i am in as well its nice you are with me  at least i do not need to fool any one.   i am a transfemale at 60 jos & i walk this trip to geather .its neat . i have friends like you they are neat... some do not understand me so we are on the same boat .   i would love to meet you i am in new zealand .o well may be one day.   what i am getting at is we have the net.   i am glad you are here thats neat ..yes its hard when you are not like other people.  i know i am not   to live this way is hard i know how you feel .....i am both male &female.   nuts ... .in side i am female  ....i can not offer you any thing   just my love goes out to you  ..   & i see alot.    i hope i can help i work with trans people i love it .  o well thats me ...... noeleena

Hi Noeleena,

If you are interested, a great group to be a part of is Agender NZ :

http://www.agender.org.nz/

They have lots of resources and local group meetings.

Nick

Quote from: Rachael on September 30, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
when i spoke to an IS specialist endocrinologist about the types of patients hes seen (completely outside of confidentiality laws don't worry) none have been gender variant, the patients he saw were wishing to stay their external gender, or fix their body to match their internal and mental gender

The only IS person I have ever met (or at least, the only IS person I've ever met who told me e was IS) is an androgyne, with breasts and male genitalia, and a perfectly androgynous appearance, very beautiful. E is delighted with this and annoys the uninitiated by insisting that they use gender-neutral pronouns. I have no idea how e could fail to get tired of constantly correcting waiters and explaining about androgyny and intersex conditions to everybody and their dog, but e seemed delighted to do that, too.

intersex doesnt equal medical androgyne. im 46xx and intersex, that makes me as female as i look,
maybe you confuse intergender and intersex?
i have yet to meet an IS androgyne, only happy natal males and females who are IS, and trans people who are is and going from one to the other,.
R