We try to communicate feelings using the written word.  Feelings as in gender perception.

We use words like male and female that no longer encapsulate the absolute truth.

We add concepts such as cores and images such as diamonds.

We attempt to describe spectrums and colors to communicate our life experiences with each other as nonbinaries and our gender nuances.

Yet, our language falls short of truly expressing who we are.

So the creature thread was born.

It is a place to let our emotions out, express the depths of who we are and how we feel.  Safely.

I don't know of other ways to really get it across.

Anyway, I want to thank everyone for not giving up, and continuing to communicate with each other here in the nonbinary forum.

No thread hijacking on this thread, no off topic, nothing else.  But I would challenge that we need better ways to self express, however creative that way is.   Pronouns, pictures, words... whatever.  Life experiences.

This is the only place I know where we can understand each other, and be free.

I probably just made no sense at all, but I have learned more about you in that creatures thread than on a multitude of posts elsewhere.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking part in it.  That is what I am lamely trying to express.  Gratitude for continuing to carry the message and be authentically non binary and proud of it.

Blessings from Satinjoy the Fairy.


Nails out etc etc etc

Wonder if it's sort of a right-brain/left-brain kind of thing.

I've never had trouble understanding people when they explain their gender, even though lots of non-binary gender experiences are nothing like mine. But I can't do it by looking at the meaning of words alone. I find I need to use my imagination - to envision what it would probably be like to feel that way.

People who don't have that ability - left brain folks who rely mostly on precision to describe their world - might find it more baffling. Those with rich visualization and creative abilities have a bit of an advantage. Also those for whom empathy comes naturally might have an easier time.

What do you think?

I think that trying to put such a concept (non-binary) into written/spoken language makes it seem more complicated than it actually is.

There are many polarities--male/female, good/evil, light/dark, this/that--and I think all of them are just ideas. Nothing and no one actually exists that embodies one polarity entirely, without having just a little bit of the other within it. Labels are generalizations that help our brains process the world; real individuals are too complex to fit into strict labels.

Lost my train of thought as it traveled back toward my own identity crisis :/

we use metaphors to talk about our experiences of gender, symbols to speak of ourselves.

what is the eagle? it is i. the person i am when i remember to use my empathic abilities, when i see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. eagle is no gender though, it is just me. one of me. for i have a darker side, the shadow which tries to hide all it loves from danger, but will just as soon hurt the one who endangers those whom it loves. shadow isn't a gender either. even sootball isn't a proper gender, but what that thing is, shall be up to itself to explain. it's refusing to play right now.

but, no matter how much you mix those three, there still won't be any gender. it's just a whole lot of me and maybe some more.

then how do i describe gender? not as a line, neither a 2d spectrum. i like color, but only because it's pretty, and because adding a 4th dimention makes the whole thing rather mind boggling. someone prefers the universe, and i must say, i like that too.

i do not view gender as male and female and in between. i did have some idea of bodies being male or female or a mix of more or less of both or the other. but gender...

the whole concept eludes me. if it says it's a girl, then it is. a boy can be a little sister, a girl can be a bro. a person can be both or neither or half of each or something else entirely (sootball's demon does not have human gender).

how can i explain non-binary properly? it's as impossible as describing each star and planet in the universe in a way that focuses on what they have in common while making clear that they are all different from each other, in one short forum post. and well, that's the metaphor i'd usr to explain non-binary, and even binary gender. because typical "gender" words seem pointless.

female and male hobbies? likes and dislikes? boy toys? girl toys?
do those even exist?
the moment a boy plays with a doll, that has become a boy toy.
and we all know that genitals have nothing to do with a person's gender.

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 01, 2014, 12:29:51 PM
Wonder if it's sort of a right-brain/left-brain kind of thing.

I've never had trouble understanding people when they explain their gender, even though lots of non-binary gender experiences are nothing like mine. But I can't do it by looking at the meaning of words alone. I find I need to use my imagination - to envision what it would probably be like to feel that way.

People who don't have that ability - left brain folks who rely mostly on precision to describe their world - might find it more baffling. Those with rich visualization and creative abilities have a bit of an advantage. Also those for whom empathy comes naturally might have an easier time.

What do you think?

You're not wrong. I'm not very good at all this metaphor stuff, nor do I take particular comfort in it. I'm just not an artist, y'know? (Although, I resent the implication that it's a matter of empathy!  )

I want to state, for the record, that I am a pretty verbal person. Speech is absolutely my medium, and I'm rarely left wanting for words. And yet, I can't deny that my personal non-binary language exists reactionarily, and in opposition that of most others. I'm no fan of the imprecise;  for me, language is a tool --my sharpest and most delicate-- meant to carve away misunderstanding and leave in its place a clear idea, unobscured by the fog of wiffle-waffle. Which isn't to say I'm always successful, but. I try. In my perfect world, even my shades-of-grey are framed in a way which communicates the exactness of the in-betweens: like a black and white photo, where every grey, while neither one extreme nor the other, is clearly defined and an important part of the picture.

It's hard for me sometimes here. If you're fairies and dryads and satyrs in this forest, then I feel like the monster in the closet. No beauty, no good magic, and rightfully barred from entry, lest I spoil the fun.

But it's so important for me to box my unboxables. It's the only way I know to understand who I am.

EDIT: fixed some mobile-posting typos

I was just saying this on FaceBook the other day to someone; SEX is binary. Binary means "2" and we have two sexes. Gender on the other hand is fluid and always was. We have always had tomboys that weren't trans, and effeminate men who are also no trans. The "being trans" part is the physical thing, the biological sex part.

And that's binary. You are male or female. There are variations in those two groups; we have all seen "manly" women and very delicate men. But they are still male or female. And that's binary.

But your gender is different. And along with your sex you can have variations, like a tomboy or effeminate man. Or you can be androgynous and looks like both/neither.

So saying someone's gender is "non binary" is kind of normal, except you are still acknowledging the two genders, masculine and feminine, and we are back to a binary pair.

Personally I don't see the issue. I was born male, and I'm still a male, but knew since I was about 4 that I was supposed to be a girl. This discord is caused by the two binary genders/sexes not matching up. But you can't escape being one or the other.

But since gender is fluid, being a female doesn't mean you have to dress or wear your hair a certain way. But being the way the world is, you will either dress like a girl, or a boy, or some combination of the two. And two is a binary. So we are back to that.

Youre off topic dear, but thanks for the post.

I am physically both sex characteristics.

The topic is communicating non binary honey, how we do it.  Words, images, feelings.

We won't debate binary and non binary on this thread.

Thank you.

Language is tricky stuff.  Language and meaning evolves and differences emerge, confusion results. Meaning may differ between writer and reader. It is influenced by local usage, context, individual experience, narrative etc.  Just trying to settle on an agreed vocabulary is hard enough, never mind settling on a precise meaning for each term used.  In most cases I use a gender spectrum when explaining non binary as this is an easier though simplistic model to use with folk who have not considered that there may be anything other than a male  or a female gender identity

Perhaps agreeing that there is a distinction between gender identity and gender expression/presentation is a start. When you then employ a binary, 2-D, 3-D, Universe  gender paradigm or model etc the language differs, the concept differs and it frustrates or even defies a consistent language or vocabulary. Perhaps just agreeing that gender identity is unique to an individual, that it defies a conventional or simple explanation once the reductionist and limiting concepts of male and female are introduced is enough. We have spent too many cycles trying to describe or to explain our NB lived experience to others when it only needs to be understood by us, and for others to accept us as we are and how we explain it to them, confusing though that may be.

I like the forest. We can express and define ourselves and our characters by our actions and nteractions. If only it were this simple in regular conversation

Safe travels

Aisla

We are creating the language we need to define ourselves while having to deal with a world that doesn't want to listen to what we have to say.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 04, 2014, 03:46:44 PM
We are creating the language we need to define ourselves while having to deal with a world that doesn't want to listen to what we have to say.

I wonder whether it's not that people don't want to listen, but instead most people have so many priorities in their lives and demands on their attention that understanding NB identities has a hard time getting onto their radar.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 04, 2014, 03:46:44 PM
We are creating the language we need to define ourselves while having to deal with a world that doesn't want to listen to what we have to say.

My dark and nihilistic side completely agrees with you.

But respectfully,

Words have power. 

Simple clear explanations and truths change worlds.

The pace always seems glacial, but can we not see it happening around us, in a positive direction?

When we have the opportunities to change minds, wouldn't it be best to be prepared to "use our right words"?

If nothing else, words give us power to save ourselves.  The first time I heard the word Androgyne it was used once, in a 10 second scene, a character in a single episode.  It was the first time I had a real word, a good word for what I am.

In my readings on shamanism and religions I read the word two-spirit.  And I knew then I was not a freak, that I was special, there were others like me, and always have been.  And that things could be different, they could be much better.

In my readings on science I read about DES, digit ratio, and brain studies.  Objective and affirming measures of the subjective agony and despair I had suffered in for so many years.

Words here and on my other forum.

All the little words that set me free and saved me.

Maybe I will have a chance to use my words to save others.  I hope so.

Maybe we will have the chance to use our words to change many, many others.  I hope so.


- Jaded Jade