I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 30, 2014, 01:07:23 PM
It's when you do explain, answer their questions and they still make assumptions based on their perceptions.
When they disqualify your answers because it doesn't fit their narrative that it is annoying.
Especially when they ask the same question again and again, as if the answer will eventually conform to their expectations, their narrative.
The one that asked the question in the first place.
It isn't the questions, it's the telling answers that are judged to be wrong because it doesn't align with their world view.
Once this has been done, the negative response to an answer, the questions become negative in themselves.
Silence or saying you won't answer is viewed as a negative because you won't tell them the answer they have already answered to themselves.
It isn't the questions, it's the assuming the answers will fit their perceptions their narratives that is their problem.
That problem is not ours to fix, it is theirs.
It's annoying to have to explain that over and over, in different terms in an effort to answer such a simple thing.
It isn't complicated, it is only for the person who refuse to hear it because it isn't the right answer from their point of view.
It is the 'I want to ram your head through a wall if you don't give me the answer I have already decided on' that is only annoying to the ones who demand an answer that fits their perceptions, the perception they think is correct for them and so must be correct for everyone.
The opportunity is there, it is the fault of the person seeking an answer who ignores it.
Asking a question in bias will get you an answer that you will won't hear because of that bias.
It is the problem of the person asking in such a way. It deserves silence as an answer.
But this is not the case, more often than not, the answer have been given, again and again, it's the bias that fails to hear them.
The world is full of people who don't have to ask, and there are those who feel they already have the answer and don't ask.
It is the ones who ask and expect the answer to conform to their own preconceived ideas, their narrative.
To expect us to also change their perspectives, their views so they can understand isn't the question or even the answer, if that is never asked in the first place.
So perhaps asking the question to themselves of why they need to ask the question should be one to themselves of why their perceptions, their views, won't allow them to hear the answer, to already know the answer.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it.
It's very frustrating to take them there and they refuse to drink because they don't believe it's there.
Ativan

That's fair enough. I understand why you feel that way. That isn't limited to non-binary people, though. Anything that's outside someone's sphere of experience can be disregarded by the person in question, comfortable in their own ideas. It's part of human nature. We feel what we feel, and get decidedly uncomfortable with those who question or challenge those feelings. We feel threatened, invalidated, belittled. It causes us to question ourselves. And we spend enough time doing that, we don't like being forced into it.

I guess all one can do is gauge who someone is who we're dealing with. Going by what we know about them, what the relationship dynamic is. If one feels that someone doesn't want to listen, then they don't want to listen. However that's on the individual, not on the group. You can only do what you can do, you know?

Maybe I should have been clearer in my first post. I apologise. I think most people are emotionally aware enough to ascertain when someone keeps asking a question because they want a very specific answer, and won't be satisfied until they get it. In that case... do what you feel is right. But for the lay-person who just wants to know how to treat you, how to not misgender, or disrespect you... give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

Off topic response and I deleted it.  that may screw up Ativans next post as out of context.  Sorry about that .  Satinjoy

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved to my satisfaction.

I think language is a real barrier.

It is not a new thought, it is an old one.

Yes lets forget the past and move on.  Lets recover this thread and prove we can do that.

I edited my previous post as it is not  helpful or productive.

So can we describe gender in pictures, in allegories?

How do we describe something that is an elusive feeling?  So that others can understand?

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 28, 2014, 01:44:20 PM

I am not trying to stir anything up I just have a thought to express.

As the quotes show above there seems to be a reluctance to talk about being non binary. Most said they really don't talk about it or go into detail with anyone. This is exactly the reason our two communities do not understand each other. I came to this topic hoping to see how others explain it so I could understand it. Not one post was clear or had any information I could use to figure this out. I am trying, but if it is not talked about amongst yourselves how in the world can I get a grasp on it. Do you see the problem? I will watch this topic and hope someone gives me the information I can use to understand your community. Until then I am still in the dark. I am trying though. 

I don't think you're stirring anything up Jessica. I'm MTF non binary, for now anyway. Of course nature did me some favors. I just feel I owe no one any explanations. Other than the rest of the community and really its just one community if they want to know. Yes there are different ways everyone is going about it but there really isn't different camps. I have the closet door wide open with the light on. Walk in closet BTW. We are all trans. Non Binary, Androgynous, Non Binary MTF, Non Binary FTM, Binary MTF and Binary FTM. I think the main thing is we are our own little society our own little community. Or at least a subgroup of the bigger beast of society. I will definitely talk about me and how I feel with the community but as for society, they can make their own assumptions. The closet door is open and the light is on and I am peeking out. So not really hiding but most people see what they want to see. But come on, with my hair and eyebrows anyone that can't tell just really don't pay attention. Especially when I wear just enough mascara to accentuate my eyelashes Or just enough eyebrow pencil to accentuate the shape of my brows. I mean I see girls with uglier brows than me and shorter hair and don't smell near as pretty as me.

This is what I can't understand and really confused about and kind of hurt over, not by you or anyone else specifically. You may like brussel sprouts, I hate brussle sprouts but we are both human. Same with you may be Binary MTF and I may be Non Binary MTF but we are both Trans and we are both human. I can't really understand all the defensiveness or offensiveness between Non Binary and Binary. I always thought Binary was Cis. Until the last couple of months I honestly didn't know that "Binary" transgender even existed. I thought we were all in the same boat. The only thing that worries me is with the likes of Andrej, I can't even spell her last name, and Leverne Cox and a lot of others that are transgender, the old "divide and conquer" deal to try and take away some of our legitimacy as trans. In fighting will destroy us quicker than any religion, politician or any negative press. Right now we all need to stick together because I will almost bet that there are people reading through susans and other transgender websights and will use all this against us. Sort of like, "I heard so and so say this about you." Now we really need to be united more than anything.

Honestly, there should be friction between us here or anywhere else. We should respect everyone whether full HRT, SRS, Low dose HRT or natural "freaks" like me that nature put somewhere in between. Either by DES or Mother Nature. The word "freak" isn't a bad thing and I will be the first to say I am proud and kind of comfortable to be a freak of nature. It has probably helped a lot with not being so dysphoric and may have actually saved my life on more than one occasion.

OK I am gonna' be a little activist here. We need to really stop this infighting amongst ourselves. We need to stop being so defensive and offensive and not be so offended by anyone that doesn't understand Non Binary trans or Binary trans and answer whatever question with understanding form anyone that ask, even Cis. But we trans are such a small group in society and gaining momentum. Let's all not let that movement be hijacked. Please. And yes I am begging.

Satinjoy, don't be torn up hon. You did nothing wrong. Jessica, don't be so gun shy, you also did nothing wrong. But seriously as much crap as society has given us we should have thicker skins than to get offended by our own true family. Even though we are all different we are actually the only ones that understand us in society. I really hate that Jessica has to apologize before when even ask a question or try to understand one another. Anybody can ask me anything and I promise I won't get offended from anyone. All the crap from being trans and an outcast has given me a thick skin. You call me normal I might get a little pissed though. Call me Cis and I will get really mad. Not really but you get the point. Let's keep the transgender momentum going. Please.

OK I'm sure someone will be mad or offended by what I said. So give it to me or trash me all you want, but I will still wake up in the morning and still be me and still respect and love everyone here on Susan's. And I will still think the same way tomorrow.

Quote from: Jess42 on September 30, 2014, 04:23:22 PM
I always thought Binary was Cis. Until the last couple of months I honestly didn't know that "Binary" transgender even existed.

I di not know either to tell the truth. My BINARY viewpoint was unknown to me until others here pointed it out. I just knew I was a female with all it entails and the life one lives as a female with all the hopes, dreams and expectations. I had no idea that my view point as a female would offend. That is why I was asking people so I would NOT offend anyone with anything said by me in topics. I have stayed out of non binary topics since being told to, but had to respond to this. 

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 30, 2014, 04:35:32 PM
I di not know either to tell the truth. My BINARY viewpoint was unknown to me until others here pointed it out. I just knew I was a female with all it entails and the life one lives as a female with all the hopes, dreams and expectations. I had no idea that my view point as a female would offend. That is why I was asking people so I would NOT offend anyone with anything said by me in topics. I have stayed out of non binary topics since being told to, but had to respond to this. 

Well I think all the terminology and internal analyzing can be both confusing and convoluted and frankly I don't waste a lot of waking hours agonizing over it. I consider myself non-binary because I'm clearly not a woman and don't really wish to be one, though I was confused enough early on in my transition to think so, and I'm clearly not a male anymore either so suffice it to say, non-binary is an apt description of my inner workings. Outwardly I appear to be an androgynous male and that aptly describes my personal appearance in public. Really I think it's simple enough to understand, there is no deep dark secret here.

I'm out of this and any further conversations until this is resolved.
Please remove any quotes of me in this thread.

This isn't about Jess42's comment, that makes perfect sense.
It is about repeatedly having our identities here invalidated by Jessica.
Look back at how many times this was explained in as many ways as thought possible.
I have heard that it was done through PM's many times as well.
Yet the invalidation didn't stop. Instead of learning anything, there were cries of I'm sorry and won't do that again.
Repeatedly forgiven, repeatedly invalidates.
For me this culminated in a different thread.
In large bold caps, after screaming something demeaning about NB's.
Around that same time she had made comments about not caring about the NB's.
She has expressed these sentiments and carried this argument of hers through several threads, one of them being locked, another deleted altogether.
That she has been steadily rejected for her behavior is evident.
She has left more than one person afraid to comment, lest they be invalidated once again.
This happens to often, but to then say they knew nothing about binary gender as a moderator?
I find that hard to believe and do not accept it as the truth. If it is true, then what was she referring to when she used the term non-binary?
That would imply that what she had been saying was towards all binary and non-binary? She claims intelligence in one comment, maybe more...
I find this excuse to be less than truthful from a moderator in a forum that deals with a lot of gender issues.
Many have expressed that they would like to see her stopped from using her privilege as a mod, her binary privilege and now maybe, lol, her female privilege.
It is this constantness that has been answered many times over and yet keeps on with the same attitude.
It is about her, not Jess42 or anyone else. I have reported her comments like I was supposed to, it didn't stop her.
Others have reported her, she even talked about it in her comments elsewhere.
She complained about that and also blamed the NB's for reporting her for comments just like that one.
This looks like a pathological dysfunction, and it has been tried for a long time to get it to atop.
It hasn't, I'm sick of it.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If she can talk the way she has been doing, I think it is only fair to talk right back about her.
Her presence is toxic to anyone new to NB who goes back and reads her comments.
It continues on.
She has claimed that the NB's are the ones at fault for a divide, but it is her behavior that has widened it, no one else is to blame.
I had made statements about how well the communities within the forum have been coming together.
Just showing up with the continuation of her argument she is having by herself is counterproductive to what I had said.
I don't want my statements of how little divide there now is to be tainted by her continuing this line that NB's are not fair to her.
They went way out of their way, above and beyond, as far as I am concerned.
No, it has nothing to do with Jess42's comment, it has everything to do with Jessica taking advantage of it to plead innocent by ignorance.
That to has been done and forgiven too many times.
Had anyone from this area gone into the MTF area and acted this way, they would have been given warnings and bans.
As it is, even explaining this truth about what has been going on, is going to result in that.

Quote from: Jess42 on September 30, 2014, 04:23:22 PM
I just feel I owe no one any explanations. Other than the rest of the community and really its just one community .  I will still wake up in the morning and still be me and still respect and love everyone here on Susan's. And I will still think the same way tomorrow.

Thank you Jess for bringing that solidarity concept back to our conversation.  It can be a challenge for some not to perceive rank or status in a group but it can also get tedious for those promoting equity too.  I prefer to think of our fabulous rainbow of diversity as wonderfully illuminating the human experience.  Really, I celebrate the colorful and animated lives we represent to the masses of sameness and conformity.  We dare the world to live free on our own terms.  It is a bright new day and with this seasonal change lets prepare our nests for a content and cozy winter.  I can toss in a few nuts

Quote from: Tessa James on October 01, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
I prefer to think of our fabulous rainbow of diversity as wonderfully illuminating the human experience.  Really, I celebrate the colorful and animated lives we represent to the masses of sameness and conformity.  We dare the world to live free on our own terms.  It is a bright new day and with this seasonal change lets prepare our nests for a content and cozy winter.  I can toss in a few nuts

I love this idea.

" I can toss in a few nuts "

Tessa, how did you know I was back?    You do write so very beautifully, thank you for your imagery.

I didn't get here until after Ativan had deleted their posts, but for what it's worth, I really do agree with Jess. "If we do not hang together we will surely hang separately" refers to more than revolution.  I fully respect anyone's right to express their gender in whatever way works for them.  Few if any of us are at the extreme poles of gender identity.  Evidently I move around quite a lot.  To some I'm a bitch, to some an ->-bleeped-<-.  Must depend on my mood .  Mostly, I am just trying to get along while my body and spirit become something new, something authentic to me.  I am a woman, most of the time but not always I'm female, most of the time but not always, I long to be a girl.  I spent too many decades living as a man to be able to fully abandon that part of me.  He is there so I might as well celebrate him.  There is much to be admired in complexity.  That is what I try to explain to people, that is for me a key to living openly and authentically.

Sadly I can only pull off authenticity imperfectly.  There is too much history, too much pain.  When I feel attacked I become defensive and withdraw.  That anyone here should ever feel attacked, is unacceptable to me.  None of us is without flaw, none of us is without beauty.  If I can show a child of transition their beauty, their unique splendor then I have done something wonderful. Male Identity, Female Identiy, Both, Neither, Blend, Something Not Yet Defined.  I just don't care.  We are all children of the spirit, all courageous miracles trying to define the ambiguous and to finally live life joyfully. That is what I choose to see and to identify with whenever I am here, that is why I am so thrilled to meet and hold your hands whenever I get the chance.

I wish everyone peace,
Julie

I edited my comment above to clear up any notion that I was in any way offended by Jess42's comment.
I wasn't, I agree with the principle of it.
I think I have made it clear to why I deleted my comments and wish the quotes taken down as well.

how do we explain non-binary?
the way we've always done. there's a pinned thread here for that, "shedding some light".
i wish all would go over there to read if they haven't yet, and none can come in here claiming that we don't explain ourselves enough, it's already been done.

i have personally been a member here for over three years already.
in all those three years, we've almost constantly been bothered and bugged to tell and explain, what is this forum for, and what are its members really.

i have no problems talking about and explaining to new members who come by to ask whether this is a place they can fit in a little better than in the other forums. i will share my own story in response to their stories, as will many others. that is a good conversation.
there are so many of those conversations however, that any one who wishes to learn, should be able to find the answer in the history of these forums, without having to ask over and over again.

i am sorry, echeleon, for writing a post that neither explains what or how to explain.
this is just such an old discussion, a fight for existence, that has been going on for too long.
my patience has been stretched thin, not by those new and curious, but by those who come in and trample all over our forums with their "how can something like that even exist" types of questions.
(no, i'm not pointing at anyone in particular. but if you feel it's directed at you, then you're obviously guilty. what's bad here isn't that one person though, but the whole mass of persons, and the persistence of some.)

why is it so important to know how non-binary can possibly exist?
it is a fact that we are. as for how, the answer is physically, mentally, and philosophically.

next time, let's explain ultraviolet, ok?
how does it look, anyone?
we all know it's a color, and that birds can see it clearly.
we take it for a fact, even if we can't even see it.

can't i just be taken for a fact?
and can't the people who don't understand, just take my experience for real?

if the need to explain the already explained keeps going on like this, i'll start asking men and women to explain their gender.
let's see how well that goes, when i start insisting that i just don't understand.
for i can't understand this idea, that gender can be something that constant and unchangeable.
i have no idea how that could possibly work.
but it's not very difficult to understand that it does work, and i only need a man or woman's word for it, to know it is.
just as much as non-binary genders are.

Taka's excellent commentary drives a stake into the heart of the matter! 

Quote from: Tessa James on October 01, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
Thank you Jess for bringing that solidarity concept back to our conversation.  It can be a challenge for some not to perceive rank or status in a group but it can also get tedious for those promoting equity too.  I prefer to think of our fabulous rainbow of diversity as wonderfully illuminating the human experience.  Really, I celebrate the colorful and animated lives we represent to the masses of sameness and conformity.  We dare the world to live free on our own terms.  It is a bright new day and with this seasonal change lets prepare our nests for a content and cozy winter.  I can toss in a few nuts

Your welcome Tessa, and thank you. And thank you too Ativan. When I wrote what I wrote, I really didn't want to offend anyone at all or make anyone angry at me but sometimes people still get mad at me. I was just trying to say that we all need to stick together since we are gaining ground and no matter what we need to show solidarity, patience, compassion and empathy and explain our viewpoints as to how we feel, even within this community. I a MTF nonbinary, others are FTM non binary and still yet some are not MTF or FTM but just plain non binary. Mine is natural, other's are through low dose HRT and some through just HRT.

Not too much hurts me. But this split cuts me deeper than any knife wound. It hurts me more than a love lost And I know of love lost and it was my fault 'cause I ran. But with him I could be who I wanted and wish I could go back but can't. I can hear someone now on TV, no names mentioned but big names and one of our biggest adversaries, I can just hear that voice saying over and over again, "So how are we ever gonna' be able to accept them as men or women when they weren't born that way when they don't even accept themselves and fighting among themselves over their own identities." A lot of people will know who I'm talking about. Hint *700*. That is the biggest thing that I am afraid of. We are tearing down walls with Laverne Cox, Andre. Now Andrea ( I can never spell the last name) Bruce Jenner and the one celebrity I can't remember that was dating a transwoman. If anyone don't think this forum is being monitored by those that want to keep us in the shadows and shamed and shunned by society, well I got to go feed my pet unicorn.

Now is the time we all need to really stick together and in a year or two, we can fight all we want to. We can disagree all we want to. I am not laying blame on anyone at all. But we all need to not let what Leverne, Andre, Bailey, Amy, all the ones on youtube public with their transitions or not one or the other and all the others across the board that has put themselves out there and proud and trans go to waste. I am definitely not an activist, but I feel so much passion and emotion for this movement and have been waiting for it since I hit puberty.

I still owe no one any explanations but I was in Downtown New Orleans recently and someone asked me about my hair and the length of my shorts and lack of body hair and WTF? Was I trans or what. All I answered him was two questions, "What do you think?" and, "Does it really matter?" I asked the guy if he thought he was ugly or not. He said no and I told him he better rethink that answer. That's me. Don't curse at me and I won't make you feel bad but his tone was kind of condescending. If he would have pulled out a gun and shot me all I would have asked is between the eyes and quick. That day I got called Sir twice and Ma'am twice so confusing isn't even the word for me. The guy did give me his number and an invite for drinks but I am kind of leery besides I have a boyfriend right now so...

I have been LGBT, the T most definitely since I can remember and I remember when lesbians didn't like gays and vice versa. I had friends that were both and we were all friends when all was said and done. I had one other trans friend, FTM and that is the only one that I knew growing up and that was rare.

But in regards to the original post, I don't. Either you accept me or not. I feel no need to be validated by anyone. I really don't care if society accepts me. I validate myself and I accept myself. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else but through some of my posts you will see me write and think of the sweetest Southern Belle voice you can muster in your imaginations and then me sayin' it all innocent and such, "Society doesn't have to accept me and I don't have to accept society either." But I ain't in no way innocent though. I feel no need to be validated, that is something that I must feel on my own regardless. I don't need to be accepted either. I accept myself and others accept me but even if they didn't I accept myself and this may sound selfish but as long as I accept myself, that is all that matters. No one else does. I have to live with myself everyday. I have to wake up to myself every morning, I have to go to bed with myself every night. In other word I have to be happy with who I am, no one else. Not family because I can always find other family even if not genetic family. I can always find friends that are like me and or that will accept me. I can always find boyfriends or girlfriends or lovers regardless of orientation, gender or sexual or straight even.

Sorry to hijack the post with a longwinded, but I do have a big mouth, but I don't need anyone to understand me. All I need to do is understand myself and be true to myself and those closest around me and if they reject me so what? There are plenty of people that do and will.

I'm sorry but I kind of had a head start on everyone else and have lived with this since I was at least 4 maybe even 3. Or definitely from first memories. I battled all the dysphoria on my own through the Library and Psychology books. I came to terms with myself early. If not I would have been worm food, six feet under long ago. I am no stronger than anyone else. But the drive to understand and the desire to be me unleashed gave me a lot of strength. Now I kind of like a leash though. Pinked spiked collar and one helluva tatted guy on the other end.

Now I will shut up. But I do love you all no matter what or who you are or how you identify.

thank you jess, that's a great explanation of why no explanation is needed.
i also don't feel much need to explain, but i'll answer benign curiosity, just because i think it's interesting.

this whole trans thing is getting kind of old to me by now. i figured it out three years ago, and one year ago i figured the rest of myself out too. being asked to explain over and over again doesn't feel like something asking for a favor, instead it's more like being asked to take all the dished out of the cupboards and wash them twice.
except that everybody would understand why i considered slamming a door in the face of whomever asked me to do those dishes...

Quote from: Taka on October 02, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
thank you jess, that's a great explanation of why no explanation is needed.
i also don't feel much need to explain, but i'll answer benign curiosity, just because i think it's interesting.

this whole trans thing is getting kind of old to me by now. i figured it out three years ago, and one year ago i figured the rest of myself out too. being asked to explain over and over again doesn't feel like something asking for a favor, instead it's more like being asked to take all the dished out of the cupboards and wash them twice.
except that everybody would understand why i considered slamming a door in the face of whomever asked me to do those dishes...

OMG sweetie. I am 46 and I figured it out when I was 14. So getting old? Just wait until you get my age hon and have known it from since an early age and the way you don't feel you need to owe anyone any explanation. I had to do "self therapy" When the closet door is wide open and the light on, why do you even need to say anything? I see your avatar. If people don't know or even guess, screw 'em. But then again it may be that "transdar" some people talk about but ever can't get right. Sometimes they do and I just reel them in.

BTW. I am who I am. And that is me. Whoever can't except it, well, they can go somewhere and do something with the horse they rode in on. I have heard of that show in "Boystown Mexico". I am no Angel so really don't listen to me. I am an angel but with leathery black wings. I am definitely a "badgirl" and have some friends who are Badgirls too. But no names from this girl. But I will be friends with anyone not just here but face to face friends. I am not too proud to make friends with anyone no matter what.

i've suffered a little from never having been allowed to be me when i grew up. mom's a natural dictator, and even her current husband can't manage to go against her. needed time to grow up and stuff before i could start to realize how different being me is from being anyone else. i already knew when i was a kid, even learned what it was called in my early teens. but at that time i had more than enough trouble just staying alive. trans was definitely the last priority in my list to deal with. only remembered this stuff again a few years ago...

thinking about it, i probably always knew who i am, even in terms if trans. what i had to figure out was mostly where my thinking went wrong when nothing seemed to make sense. the only wrong thing was my definition of normal, not what i knew about myself.