FTMs are *completely* capable of saying BS. I know quite a lot of them. LOL.
I think this is similar to what I was saying. Some people kind of hate who they may have been forced to be. Unless they examine their motivations and so on.

I think I had a very different background. I was very active in the early women's movement. I have always been very happy with that. But of course, I am not really "allowed" to be quite as much of a feminist now that I have transitioned. I get stares and so on, like I could not possibly understand this stuff.


--Jay

Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 02, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
Good to know that MtFs aren't the only ones who are constantly spouting sexist BS on this site.

It comes with the territory of being trans, apparently. Growing up in a gender that you never identified with, and being subjected to its standards and socialization and constantly hating every minute of it, makes a person bitter. And it's easy to make the jump to not being able to see a single positive thing about it because you hated it so much.

It happens both ways.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 02, 2014, 06:09:30 PM
Good to know that MtFs aren't the only ones who are constantly spouting sexist BS on this site.

It comes with the territory of being trans, apparently. Growing up in a gender that you never identified with, and being subjected to its standards and socialization and constantly hating every minute of it, makes a person bitter. And it's easy to make the jump to not being able to see a single positive thing about it because you hated it so much.

It happens both ways.

I don't think it is exclusively a trans thing. I really truly and honestly don't mind a guy trans or cis that is a little sexist. I am a little feminist after all. Like I said give and take and respecting each other's viewpoints. I don't want to be masculine in a relationship. I want the man to the man. Cis man or transman. I definitely want to be the female half. I have no desire to add any masculinity into a relationship. I want him to be the man and I want to add the femininity half to the relationship. Yeah it may be a stereotype but that is life. males are masculine and females are feminine and the two halves make the whole complete.

Yeah it sounds kind of corny and crazy but not really though.

Quote from: Jess42 on October 03, 2014, 01:47:51 AM
I don't think it is exclusively a trans thing. I really truly and honestly don't mind a guy trans or cis that is a little sexist. I am a little feminist after all. Like I said give and take and respecting each other's viewpoints. I don't want to be masculine in a relationship. I want the man to the man. Cis man or transman. I definitely want to be the female half. I have no desire to add any masculinity into a relationship. I want him to be the man and I want to add the femininity half to the relationship. Yeah it may be a stereotype but that is life. males are masculine and females are feminine and the two halves make the whole complete.

Yeah it sounds kind of corny and crazy but not really though.

As a feminine man, I resent the notion than men are masculine and women are feminine. I also strongly disagree that a femme/femme or masc/masc relationships are somehow "incomplete" - it simply isn't true.

Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being attracted solely to masculinity - there isn't. There also isn't anything wrong with not wanting to be masculine. But please, think of how many people's identities you're denying by saying things like that. It's not just feminine trans men, either - there exist masculine trans women, and they're every bit as woman as you are.

Quote from: littleredrobinhood on October 03, 2014, 01:57:44 AM
As a feminine man, I resent the notion than men are masculine and women are feminine. I also strongly disagree that a femme/femme or masc/masc relationships are somehow "incomplete" - it simply isn't true.

Now, I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with being attracted solely to masculinity - there isn't. There also isn't anything wrong with not wanting to be masculine. But please, think of how many people's identities you're denying by saying things like that. It's not just feminine trans men, either - there exist masculine trans women, and they're every bit as woman as you are.

You are totally right. But I have gay family members and it seems that one is masculine an the other more femme. Even though both are clearly and identify as male I also have lesbian family member and one seems one is more femme and the other more butch. Again both identify as totally female.Not to mention countless friends, lesbian and gay friends that seem to follow this trend.

Personally I am bi so male or female, I want to be the more feminine. Yes I am lipstick and another lipstick is fine but I want to be either the more feminine or equal feminine. So yeah. I may have been wrong with the male and female making whole. But it does seem like most meaningful and longer lasting relationships I have had has been where I was female and my partner was the more assertive dominating male persona.

Quote from: aleon515 on October 03, 2014, 01:39:42 AM
I think I had a very different background. I was very active in the early women's movement. I have always been very happy with that. But of course, I am not really "allowed" to be quite as much of a feminist now that I have transitioned. I get stares and so on, like I could not possibly understand this stuff.

Jay makes a really good point here.  As FTM's take on the male role and begin to blend in, I think it's only natural to take on a bit of sexism as well.  I'm not talking about an actual sense of superiority, but when interacting with other guys it's very normal to make fun of another guy for "being a girl" or a sissy.

Last year I was watching a football game and a fan was holding up a sign that said "Tom Brady sits when he pees."  I thought that was pretty clever.  And in my opinion it's no different from feminists referring to guys as nothing more than sperm donors.  Each gender identifies with their own.

I don't take on the sexism to fit in, wouldn't do it. I think I tend to be read as gay because I'm not too masculine. I don't actually care too much, "I yam what I yam".
What I thought I was saying was that now talking about feminism, I can't really do this as if I know anything really. I wouldn't really be trusted. But no, I refuse to get into sexism. I will actually question sexist statements and so on.


--Jay

Quote from: katiej on October 03, 2014, 02:09:41 AM
Jay makes a really good point here.  As FTM's take on the male role and begin to blend in, I think it's only natural to take on a bit of sexism as well.  I'm not talking about an actual sense of superiority, but when interacting with other guys it's very normal to make fun of another guy for "being a girl" or a sissy.

Last year I was watching a football game and a fan was holding up a sign that said "Tom Brady sits when he pees."  I thought that was pretty clever.  And in my opinion it's no different from feminists referring to guys as nothing more than sperm donors.  Each gender identifies with their own.

I think that another potential reason some trans men turn to sexism is because they believe that it's "natural" for guys to think that way. And if you don't look closely, it might seem like that, because sexism is very common among cis men.

And some may be aware that it isn't "natural" - and even that it's wrong - but still crack misogynistic jokes and the like so they'll "fit in".

I mean, trans people in general already have to jump through hoops to "prove" that they are what they say they are.. but men - sexist men in particular - would be quick to doubt your gender if you spoke up about some misogynistic remark he made, because a lot of sexist men seem to believe that the only reason a man would dare side with "the feminists", is so he'll "get laid". So in their mind, the only reason a trans man would speak up in defense of women would be if he "weren't really a man".

I'm sure there are similar things between cis men - where cis guys disagree with something their sexist friends said or did, but don't speak up about it because he knows he'd lose those friends by doing so.

Jay, I didn't mean to say that you've taken on the sexist banter that is common among guys.  Your point was that as we transition, we aren't always taken seriously advocating for our birth-assigned gender. I see that.

One of the advantages of being trans is the ability to see the world accurately from both sides. But as we blend into our new gender roles, I can see that we often try to distance ourselves from our birth-assigned gender.  And it would be easy in social situations to accept, if not relish, the common digs aimed at the other gender.

I'm admittedly really tired right now, so I didn't read all of the replies to this post. However, I want to respond to the OP, so if this may have been stated before I'm glad someone else is on the same wavelength.

Maybe it's a possibility that you're sexist because being FAAB is so loathsome (to you) that you project your feelings of disgust for your own body onto others who are female bodied. Especially towards those who are content in a body that you could never find happiness in yourself.

I would think that a contributing factor to misogyny or misandry by trans people is growing up being bullied or ostracized by members of one's birth sex.  I have heard this from both sides, and it often manifests itself in the form of gender bashing.

Trans guys are generally as sexist as cis guys. You've got some that aren't by much, and others that really are.

I grew up thinking girls were stupid because I was taught that most girls hate dirt and bugs and RC cars, love pink dresses and gossip and Barbies.

I began assuming very early on that I'd never be able to relate to girls. And that they just generally had bad taste in hobbies and clothing.

But all of these things were socialized into me, constantly giving me reminders of gender messages through family, media, etc. Gender roles and ideas constructed over many years by a society that has a nasty habit of dividing itself.

Most of what the OP said looks to me like the result of these same kinds of social constructions. I feel like you might want to spend some time looking at the base ideas behind each of these constructs and try to tear them down a bit.

When I started hanging out with feminists who advocated being yourself over performing a gender, I found that I could relate. And I came to understand that male being the default is part of a social construct. That this construct and many others around issues of gender serve the purpose of privileging men and disempowering women.

You mentioned you never even thought of the idea of God as a woman. I think some of the things you said that people may have find offensive were probably other things that you've just always thought of in certain ways, and never seen another side to.

There are definitely sexist transmen. And transmen with a history of sexism like mine, resulting from the internalization of misogynistic messages that are pervasive within society. Some of us grow out of it when we learn more about ourselves, some when we learn more about others, some by pure luck, and some never grow out of it at all.

All I knew, before I really started examining these things, was that if being a girl meant you had to like Barbies, I was done with being a girl. And done with anyone who was okay with that definition of being a girl.

Luckily, I learned that that's not really the definition at all.

Though I'm still done as hell with being a girl.

It's a shame that it has to be spelled out that gender identity and gender expression are not the same thing, especially here.

Quote from: Manny on October 01, 2014, 04:16:11 PMWhy would anyone want to be female anyway? I understand "feeling" female like cis-women and MTFs do therefore having no choice, but it's kind of sad that they weren't born/gave up being male. I'm not trying to be offensive, just curious if this line of thinking is just me or other trans guys think like this too. Not sure if most bio men do but I guess so. In my case I believe that men and women deserve the same rights and everything but at the end of the day the better ones like God should be male.

*flys in randomly*

I think it just comes with the territory of being male to not be able to fathom why someone would want to be female, and vice-versa for females not being able to fathom why someone would be comfortable being a guy. I don't think this is sexism.

Yes, there may be some genuinely sexist trans men, but if anything, actually the trans community--particularly the trans male community--seems hyper-sensitive to sexism; or, at least, there are a few loud guys who jump at everything that could be remotely construed in their imagination as offensive to women and chastise other men for voicing their opinions or thoughts in that regard. (It's part of the reason I've avoided trans guy Facebook groups lately that aren't very specific to some kind of interest.)

Perhaps it is subconscious. Maybe some trans men, like yourself, feel weird about females, or feel weird about "rejecting" the gender assigned to them at birth, and then perhaps feel guilty that they do because it could be seen as "rejecting" women. Maybe some guys feel this way and overcompensate by being snappy to anyone who is not an overt feminist. Maybe some other guys instead have explicity negative thoughts about women. I don't know.

Yeah I think I misinterpreted what you said, but I agree with this. I very much value having lived as both genders. And do consider myself "two spirit" though I don't really use that term IRL due to not wanting to appropriate other cultures. But I know not everyone has that experience of being transgender. I think hating that side of oneself is common. I can see how that turns to sexism.

--Jay

Quote from: katiej on October 03, 2014, 02:56:32 AM
Jay, I didn't mean to say that you've taken on the sexist banter that is common among guys.  Your point was that as we transition, we aren't always taken seriously advocating for our birth-assigned gender. I see that.

One of the advantages of being trans is the ability to see the world accurately from both sides. But as we blend into our new gender roles, I can see that we often try to distance ourselves from our birth-assigned gender.  And it would be easy in social situations to accept, if not relish, the common digs aimed at the other gender.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on October 02, 2014, 09:17:12 PM
The part he took is important.  If it was a bone of the foot she would be seen as beneath him, if it was a bone of the head she would be seen as his ruler, but it was the rib so that they would be seen as equal halves who complement each other.

My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.

Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:17:53 PM
My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.

What about lesbian househlods?

Quote from: Jill F on October 03, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
What about lesbian househlods?

Well it said nothing about that and I am not gonna state why because it will offend some people.

Quote from: Brandon on October 03, 2014, 02:17:53 PM
My point was adam was still here first, Not only the that reference but also that us men are head of the household, It may sound sexist but that also tells you that most people view woman as beneath man. Thats not to say I believe that but some people do. I do believe I am suppose to b the provider and what not.

If you can't see the latent sexism here, there's no hope for equality..

Quote from: Jill F on October 03, 2014, 02:24:06 PM
What about lesbian househlods?

Or gay households?

I see sexism as just a another form of insecurity. Thinking your better than the other gender is just a mask of that side of yourself that you are afraid of. Because nobody is 100% male or female.