I've seen this topic discussed a lot here, about whether "passing" matters or not, and whether being "stealth" matters or not

Some of the strongest trans people I've ever known are those who know that they'll never "pass," are "out and proud," and yet keep going anyway, having a strong conviction that they have a right to be who they are.

Likewise, I know a lot of people who do "pass" and yet are still completely miserable.

But likewise, I've heard many people on this site who say that the only thing that kept them alive was having a successful transition, and many people who, after fighting for years and years, just gave up because they felt like it was hopeless and they'd never be the person that they want to be. (I especially want to talk about this in light of the recent suicide of Kate Von Roeder, who simply said that she's not strong enough, that she couldn't handle the constant feelings of inadequacy to cis women.)



I also want to talk about this in light of these statistics from the National Transgender Discrimination Survey:

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/01/28/3214581/transgender-suicide-attempts/

Attempted suicide rates among those who are "unpassable," who feel like they are immediately read as trans most of the time, were 45%. Attempted suicide rate among those who feel that others could not tell that they were trans was a lesser 36%. Attempted suicide rates among those who are "out" were a whopping 50%, while attempted suicide rates among those who don't tell others that they're trans were a lesser 33%.

So according to this study, one is at a lesser risk of suicide if they're passable and stealth.

What do you all make of these numbers? Does this confirm that passing does matter, and that the ability to be stealth does matter? That some people really are simply not strong enough to be "out and proud" and need to be passable and stealth?

Does this maybe mean that insurance companies should consider covering FFS or VFS too, since increased passability seems to reduce the attempted suicide rate among trans people?

My immediate reaction here is that the difference in the numbers is not terribly significant.  Yes, a 33% suicide rate is lower than a 50% rate, but even so, both numbers are very high and very disturbing.

I certainly sympathize with those who aren't strong enough to be "out and proud".  The only reason that I'm out is that I'm passable enough to get out.  Knowing myself as I do, I'm convinced that I wouldn't be strong enough to put up with constant harassment.

Of course passing matters-as sick as it makes me feel to admit it, it's utterly crucial.  It's not so much that in order to BE a woman, I need to look, act, be seen, etc a certain way.  It's just that the way our world treats trans* women is utterly disgusting, and if you can avoid being seen as trans* you're going to be a lot better off.  It has nothing to do with looking like a "real" woman-it's just about gaining the privilege that comes along with passing.  If you pass, you don't get fired from work for being "an inappropriate candidate", you aren't unable to find a date, you aren't treated like a fake person.  So on a personal level, passing should not matter, but it does because the way I am treated when I am being read as trans is so strikingly different from how I am read the rest of the time that my life is worth less because of it. 

Honestly, I don't think FFS and VFS would do me any good personally.  My biggest tells are my height (six feet) by shoulders (sixteen inch) and my hands (which are the size of dinner-plates).  My haircut is unflattering, and I can't fix that without going back to being read as male for three years or so.  There's nothing that can really fix those, and as a result I only pass around people who have never seen a trans* person before; I get stared at all the time, and it does take a lot out of me. I'm finding more and more that even within the trans* community trans women who do not pass aren't welcome around those who do-I've experienced it firsthand.  As I begin to pass on occasion, I'm just finding the way people treat me is so much better.  I doubt I will ever get to the point where nobody can tell, that I will ever *not* be single, or never get fired again for being a trans woman (and a very, very out one sometimes by my own choice).  But there's nothing to do about that.

honestly , I think if we'd stop this nonsense of pass/no pass and come out and show the world we're the same as everyone else. society needs to grow up. there would be no difference with the general population if society would wake up an fulfill its evolutionary potential

Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 04, 2014, 12:20:48 PM
What do you all make of these numbers? Does this confirm that passing does matter, and that the ability to be stealth does matter? That some people really are simply not strong enough to be "out and proud" and need to be passable and stealth?

Does this maybe mean that insurance companies should consider covering FFS or VFS too, since increased passability seems to reduce the attempted suicide rate among trans people?

When I wear my wig and put on enough face makeup to cover up all shadow, I pass pretty well. People who see me smile at me.

When I don't wear my wig, or have extended facial growth ahead of an electrolysis appointment, I don't get smiles. I get people who scowl at me or stare at me, and an occasional smirk (still don't know what that's all about).

I certainly have a harder time feeling up about the world on those days. If I were prone to depression, it could easily send me into a spiral.

Having said all that, the happiest trans women I know seem to be the ones who know they'll never pass and who've made their peace with it.

I'm both out and not out. When I'm in the general public I try to blend in 100% and for the most part it works, they see and treat me as female. It certainly doesn't benefit me to tell every person I encounter that I'm trans, it's none of their business anyway. At work I'm out, it's a small workplace but I am known by many, there's no point in pretending I'm not trans and yet I am still treated as a woman and respectfully. Likewise with my small circle of friends. But then, I'm lucky with work and friends, they're open minded and considerate people. Maybe if they weren't I would have tried to scrub my life completely and restarted it elsewhere.

I'm pretty happy most of the time but I won't deny there are still times I get blue about having to deal with the limitations of my biology and the extra effort required to "fit in" when I'm in public. The trick is in not letting that become a full blown depression where things seem pointless and hopeless. That is usually where the stepping off point begins and I refuse to let that be my epitaph.

I am going to say something controversial.  Before I do, I want to convey my immense admiration for my trans brothers and sisters who are trying their best to make their lives as transgender people meaningful while simultaneously dealing with complex issues of psychology and stability. 

Now the controversial bit.  I have a feeling - and it's not backed up by anything scientific - that some people with profound depression may at times seize the transgender thing mistakenly, perhaps as a way of getting as far away as possible from themselves.  And if this is indeed done mistakenly, it could worsen what is an already complex situation and make them more prone to self-harm.  Is this a real subsection of our demographic?  Do such people add meaningfully to the suicide figures?  I can't answer that.

A separate strand concerns people who are inherently prone to depression and have the added issue of being transgender. Again, I have a feeling that this may be naturally higher in our collective than in society in general, but I can't prove this either.  But I can fully understand that their depression would be magnified by issues such as social acceptance and other considerable obstacles we face at all points of our lives. 

What I'm rather clumsily trying to get at is that being transgender per se may not in itself result in a higher likelihood of suicide, despite the challenges that many face, such as transition, acceptance, passing, money and so on.  Some people just manage to get on with it, doing their best, passing to a greater or lesser extent, and just living their lives.

So, does passing matter?  Yes, I believe it certainly does.  For some people it's fundamental, for others it's something to aim for, and there are definitely some who don't care very much about it, but are just happy to be living as honestly  as they can.   Not passing can be stressful, but many other aspects of life in general are also stressful.  So I don't know whether not passing is a major contributor of itself to the high incidence of suicide in our community.  I'm just not sure that the statistics are good enough to show that causality.

Julia

While that may be the case in some instances, I feel it is more likely that many people with gender issues and depression place way too much stock in transition being the sole cure for their pain. If people approach transition with unrealistic hopes and expectations they are more likely to be very disappointed with various outcomes (especially if they have a fixation on a particularly unchangeable aspect of their physiology or they expected blanket acceptance, true happiness or something else equally unlikely).

Another issue is self acceptance.

As a person who came close to wanting to kill myself during my first attempt at transition I had an extreme case of the self hates. I wanted to be genetic female so badly it made me blind to my own transition progress ("it was never good enough"); my lack of perspective meant I couldn't even enjoy the friends and life that I did have. In the end I detransitioned. Many years of therapy and other self growth has now given me a deeper perspective, a love for my own life and self, and confidence to know that all will be well. It was hell getting to this point though, almost didn't make it a few times.

Ms. Grace

I don't think I could've said it any better. I to stood before the great pit and have been able to walk away. I wish I could say unscathed, but I did look over that edge and it is a lot about self-acceptance and truly understanding how you feel. And for me the decision not to live my life by others expectations of myself was really freeing with that being said, I also do believe that part of it is your attitude towards life. Some people do choose to be a part of life and others try to escape it. There's acceptance and there's blame depending on which way your mind is thinking makes a big difference on how people around you treat you along with the way you treat yourself. My only wish is that I had learned this at a much earlier age, and I'm so very hopeful that all my brothers and sisters in this community can find that acceptance of themselves and find comfort in the expectations they have for themselves. By expectations. I don't mean being able to transform myself into a supermodel because that's just is not realistic. I just want my body to reflect how I feel and that outcome will be what it will be I will do the best I can to achieve this, but I'm not live my life to the expectations of everybody else just because I was born with an outtie when I feel I should of been born innie.

Hugs,

Melissa Ann

Quote from: Ms Grace on October 04, 2014, 05:06:45 PM
It was hell getting to this point though, almost didn't make it a few times.

Dear Grace

Would you be willing to share some of your experience with me?  To my surprise, I've had a transition with no real challenges so far, so it's not so easy to imagine what you and others have had to go through. I only got to the brink once, in my 20s when I first realised who I was.  Unlike you, I didn't have the courage then to go forward as you tried to do, and I ran away.

Julia

During my transition to become Julie I came close several times to ending it all. I wasn't getting the professional support I needed but was also too afraid to tell my shrink I was depressed and struggling for fear he'd cut me off from HRT. Problem was, the HRT, especially the estrogen injections, were making me even more emotionally unstable than I could stand. So in the end, because I really couldn't go through with suicide I decided to choose a different path, stop HRT and live as a non gendered person.

That might have worked except for the fact I was being fully gendered as male by society anyway.

Prior to my decision to try transition again (which is where I find myself now) I had a massive emotional melt down over a "very minor" gender exclusion incident...when I found myself sobbing uncontrollably and thinking about self-harm I knew I needed help and sought it out straight away. It was bumpy for a few months initially but over a year later here I am now, and much happier for it.

The weird thing is I had low expectations for a successful transition but I went ahead anyway and I have well and truly exceeded those expectations.

Thank you Grace.

A big hug from Madrid!
J

The hatred needs to stop, both that which many of us carry within ourselves, and that which we express at each other.

How will the world's hatred of us, and that which we return to them, ever end when we're so divided among ourselves? And indeed, sometimes within our very own selves?

I wish I knew how to show people that love, and acceptance, and support, and maybe even someday go out of my way to do it. But would that even make a difference? It's already too late for some of us.

I pass, have a fairly good social life, my voice has been finally perfected. I don't suffer from any anxiety like I used to due to being paranoid of being clocked or misgendered but yet I still have my lows and depressive days. Recently I almost fell back into a depression despite how good I feel hormonally ever since I switched shots. I just feel really lonely since I've been trying to put myself out there more in terms of dating and what not. So its just feeling so vulnerable all over again but this time its not about my trans issues just my romantic life. Idk there always seems to be something that gets me down no matter what I do. I have my lows and highs, it seems for me to be a tough thing to balance. I may feel great for a week or two but then by the third week I'm just feeling very sad. I have a bunch goals left in my transition but the big one being bottom surgery.

So I still have bottom dysphoria to an extent and its not as a bad as it used to be. My lack of transportation has a lot to do with the fact about me feeling miserable since I have to depend on everyone I know for rides everywhere. I'm saving up for a car but still in the meantime its really killing what lil social life I have left.

To summarize passing doesn't solve everything and in fact can still lead to dangerous situations since so many people still think you're deceiving them no matter what you say. Its the main reason why I'm terrified of dating men, even though I really would like to try. So thats not gonna happen till after my surgery even then I'll still be paranoid cause you never know.

And one more thing, I still think about suicide, its just not as intense of a thought like how it used to be pre-transition. I' am happier but not quite where I want to be in my life. I know why I feel that way still and once I remedy that issue, I'll finally truly be happy.

Quote from: Julia-Madrid on October 04, 2014, 03:58:01 PM
I am going to say something controversial.  Before I do, I want to convey my immense admiration for my trans brothers and sisters who are trying their best to make their lives as transgender people meaningful while simultaneously dealing with complex issues of psychology and stability. 

Now the controversial bit.  I have a feeling - and it's not backed up by anything scientific - that some people with profound depression may at times seize the transgender thing mistakenly, perhaps as a way of getting as far away as possible from themselves.  And if this is indeed done mistakenly, it could worsen what is an already complex situation and make them more prone to self-harm.  Is this a real subsection of our demographic?  Do such people add meaningfully to the suicide figures?  I can't answer that.

A separate strand concerns people who are inherently prone to depression and have the added issue of being transgender. Again, I have a feeling that this may be naturally higher in our collective than in society in general, but I can't prove this either.  But I can fully understand that their depression would be magnified by issues such as social acceptance and other considerable obstacles we face at all points of our lives. 

What I'm rather clumsily trying to get at is that being transgender per se may not in itself result in a higher likelihood of suicide, despite the challenges that many face, such as transition, acceptance, passing, money and so on.  Some people just manage to get on with it, doing their best, passing to a greater or lesser extent, and just living their lives.

So, does passing matter?  Yes, I believe it certainly does.  For some people it's fundamental, for others it's something to aim for, and there are definitely some who don't care very much about it, but are just happy to be living as honestly  as they can.   Not passing can be stressful, but many other aspects of life in general are also stressful.  So I don't know whether not passing is a major contributor of itself to the high incidence of suicide in our community.  I'm just not sure that the statistics are good enough to show that causality.

Julia

Julia,

Thank you for our thoughtful post. I believe you may have some valid points.  However, I don't believe that any one effect is enough to account for the high suicide rates.  If a trans person has everything going right for them: good education, support from the family and they make good money the attempt rate still looks to be around 20%.  That's if everything is perfect.  That 20% just seems to be the baseline sucide rate for a transgendered person – it starts at 20% and goes up as problems enter into the equation of the transgendered life.  That 20% is 4 times the national average. 

So, passing....  I pass fine after a $73,000 FFS surgery.  Heck, I'm borderline beautiful and at 6'1", I am stunning.  I am a scientist with a PhD and my income is very good. However, having someone try to rape me, a wife that is not accepting and one family member that is outright spiteful puts me up there in that 60% rate.  And yes, I tried. I was using my car and was heading for a bridge support at a terrifying rate of speed and still accelerating.  A car changed lanes at the last minute and I had to swerve.  The police arrived before I could get things going again.....

This is just a nasty problem for so many of us.  However, I do know that some people have minimal problems.  That is great.

Hugs,

Jen 

Jen, thank you for your reply.  Lady Oracle and Jera too.

The closest I ever came to self harm also involved a car, but was due to the mother of a serious girlfriend who went out of her way to create intense misery.  To be honest, I ended up changing countries to escape her and the situation.  When I first relised fully that I was trans, I spent over a year seriously, clinically depressed, but I never saw suicide as something I could do.  I desperately wanted to be someone else, but somehow I managed to pull myself out of the hole. 

As an engineer, I come with a build-in "we can fix it" attitude, and it horrifies me to see how much pain and depression exists within our collective.  I would desperately like to help, and have tried to reach out to a few people, just to allow them to talk absolutely freely, and also to offer them a mentoring hand if they want such a thing.  I would love to help my fellow trans brothers and sisters with the shot of penicillin that will fix everything, but I know that some will never get enough penicillin.  But I will try where I can to help.

A good Sunday to you all, my friends!
J

Quote from: Carrie Liz on October 04, 2014, 12:20:48 PM
That some people really are simply not strong enough to be "out and proud" and need to be passable and stealth?

Just because some people choose to be stealth doesn't mean they're not strong enough to be out and proud. I would imagine that it also takes a great deal of strength to remain stealth.

Each one is a stressful situation in its own right. I think the difference is that people who are stealth are able to deal with the stresses of being trans personally and privately whereas people who are out have to deal with the stresses more openly because things that happen within the transgender community effect them more publically.

It's also unfortunate that people who don't completely pass are subject to more ridicule than those who do.

If I go with full transition I want to pass. It's pretty simple. I never wanted to be trans. I just want to be female. Passing is as close as I can get to that. To me being trans is something I just need to deal with. Society is partially to blame but so am I. Be honest, if you could choose to fix the past that you were treated as female from birth or close to it wouldn't you want to be? I know I would, and I have had deep regret over not pushing for earlier intervention like I see some young trans people doing.

I've read this post a few days ago,but avoided writing anything as I wanted to think on this.  To be honest, that facebook suicide note really hit me in a huge way.  I share a lot of those fears and struggle with them all the time.  And I'm no stranger to suicidal thoughts even though I'm always too afraid to act out on them.  However, seeing someone go through with it just really impacted me and it makes me sad to see that some actually reach that point.  It also makes me realize that I could go down that road too, if i'm not careful.  To be honest,  passing is important to me as it makes me feel like it's my only chance at a normal life.  As much as it's society that needs to grow up, it's very unlikey for that to happen.  We either deal with the hardships of being trans head on or we try to mitiage that damage through blending in.  I'll be honest though, even though it's all hard, it does get easier.  I'm getting more okay with recuperating when people give me looks and some people saying critical things.  My transition went on longer than I had hoped, but in na way that's good as it is forcing me to deal with stuff I really don't want to.  But even as I get more used to it, I can't wait until I can one day blend.  One day be seen as a girl and nothing else.  Luckily, I'm increasingly beecoming more okay with my appearance as it continues to change with the hormones and I may one day reach the poiint that I hope for.  But as hard as it all is, as much as I get depressed and feel like ending it all at times with serious suicidal thoughts, dealing with being trans in an unaccepting society has been getting a little easier as I continue on.  I can't say it gets better, but at least we can all have faith that we can make it past the bad things and find a spot where it no longer plagues us every day. 

That facebook note hit me hard too.

It made me realize that if I committed suicide, I would be stressful and triggering to all my trans friends and moreover trans people around the world who would see it as another example of how hard it is.
  I feel an extra layer of protection from suicide having engaged my caring about others as part of that defense.

I am encountering a constant stream of suicidal thoughts lately, but I am winning.  Nothing says I cannot keep on winning.