Ditto. I always strive just to blend in with the confidence of being able to my true self. Generally people smile or appear to notice at all and I go about my merry way.

Hi,

Im not fooling any one and never will and my name says it all,

noel to noeleena. both names are female , no-el, and every one know,s,   nice and simple,   and those who dont know dont care, i am who i am and not trying to be other than who i am and have allways been , Just because im different does not really come into it ,  and why should it ,

Those who have known me for the last 57 years are very accepting and those who knew me during that time till  now still dont have any issues and do know me very well,   and some were not surprised when they knew i was different and female   just not your normal female did not change how they saw me or got on with me .

Whats a change of clothes or i  maybe look a little different they see my face and know straight away who i am . 

Put me in a crowd of people and those who know me will pick me out,  and i mean a lot of people some few 1000 or so,

Too well known ,  and accepted , and for my self its about being accepted for who you are the way you look,   and after that what matters  what concerns are there left,  none .

  and  though coming from myself  dare i even think or say so and im hard on myself in how i look , im more feminine and female than some i know,  and i dont like admitting to that,  because i dont look in my eye,s,   that feminine for a female ,

after youv been told you do,   so you see being female does not allways give you your female look . so accepting that is or would be my issue. others see myself differently than i do,

i  did not use...... pass..... i dont need to,......

...noeleena...

This is an interesting question to me because I recently met a MtF waiting in the lobby of my therapist. We struck up a conversation, and she was rather open about her situation. She has had facial surgery and breast implants, and was rather striking. Yet she was tall, had a rather androgynous voice, and there was something about her manner that hinted to her background. I would say that she more than passed if just a still photo was taken, but probably not for any length of time in real person. Yet she could be rated as even sexy on some level. To me, that is passing. It isn't about nobody ever guessing your background; it is rather about moving about in your new gender role, and doing it well enough to feel validated.

Quote from: Natalie on October 03, 2014, 02:54:53 PM
What is it to me? Absolutely nothing of importance.

Most likely, it's "nothing" to you, because you pass just fine and people don't clock you as a transgender. I'm sure that for trans women who have been beaten and harassed, it has a different value. Passing or not passing can really make the difference between life and death. So you shouldn't treat it lightly. It's a very important concern for most trans women.

Quote from: Auroramarianna on October 04, 2014, 11:17:56 AM
Most likely, it's "nothing" to you, because you pass just fine and people don't clock you as a transgender. I'm sure that for trans women who have been beaten and harassed, it has a different value. Passing or not passing can really make the difference between life and death. So you shouldn't treat it lightly. It's a very important concern for most trans women.

That's what I was trying to say =) At least here in Brazil it makes a lot of difference...I see news about trans peopele being killed just because someone clocked them at the streets! I know many trans women who were kicked from bathrooms, parties, restaurants, just because they weren't passable! Sure...it doesn't matter when you pass or when you live in a cave and don't need to interact with people...

Quote from: Auroramarianna on October 04, 2014, 11:17:56 AM
Most likely, it's "nothing" to you, because you pass just fine and people don't clock you as a transgender. I'm sure that for trans women who have been beaten and harassed, it has a different value. Passing or not passing can really make the difference between life and death. So you shouldn't treat it lightly. It's a very important concern for most trans women.

I'd agree with this and with Natalia's post as well.  Yes, we should all be secure enough within ourselves not to care what other people think of us, but that means very little if you're taking a beating because somebody's read you.

I myself live a small town where lots of people know me, and for that reason I've had a bit of unpleasantness here.  But I am quite passable, which means that it's very relaxing for me to get on the train and go somewhere for a day out because I know that my chances of being read are small.  I can relax and be myself without too many worries, and that is a blessing.

Those who pass do have a big advantage.  I recognize it.  I think I'd be doing a huge disservice to people, male or female, who don't pass well.  It would be trivializing what they have to put up with.

Quote from: Emily29 on October 03, 2014, 11:34:17 PM
Well to me it's being confident in myself

Yes. Confidence is the most important. People say I am very confident, and a few say actually I am blatant.
When drunken, I behave like a macho.... while wearing heels and miniskirt.

barbie~~

Quote from: kaye on October 03, 2014, 07:01:50 AM
For me it is about not getting clocked at all. Like, basically ever.

Do I go days where I blend in and no one seems to notice? Sure. Do I often get gendered correctly? Yes. Do I barely get a second look often enough? Indeed.

I'm still clocked often enough though. So the way that I see it, I don't pass.

Thoughts?

I am fine until I open my mouth..... super sad face.... cannot wait for voice surgery..... Korea or bust !

Quote from: Natalia on October 04, 2014, 11:38:52 AM
That's what I was trying to say =) At least here in Brazil it makes a lot of difference...I see news about trans peopele being killed just because someone clocked them at the streets! I know many trans women who were kicked from bathrooms, parties, restaurants, just because they weren't passable! Sure...it doesn't matter when you pass or when you live in a cave and don't need to interact with people...

Yes. Culture can matter for transgender people. Here in my country, S. Korea, it is very safe whatever I wear. Regarding appearance, everything you can imagine happens everyday, but nobody has been harmed or attacked. For example, a young lady of mental illness once walked along a downtown street completely naked. Nearby people was just busy taking smartphone photos, and other people and media just criticized those people who did not try to protect and guide her to police or hospital. When I walk in a traditional old market here, I am sure nearly everybody watches me, as I am the tallest person there (184 cm, 6 feet, plus 4 inch heels). Whether I pass or not, people are very friendly and treat me like a celebrity.

Yes. I once felt unsafe when I ran for exercise in a downtown of a Russian city. A group of a few street people greeted me in Russian, and I just ran away faster. Also once in a suburban area of the U.S., I was once virtually raped by a man in my car. He just ran away after he clearly realized that I am not a biological female. In a week, I heard from local radio broadcast that a girl was raped there, and I was sure he was the attacker. I should have reported my incidence to the police, but I did not... You know why.

barbie~~

Quote from: Natalie on October 04, 2014, 02:05:11 PM

How exactly am I taking it lightly? Because it is not important to me anymore? Of course the only "reason" must be your subjective opinion of how "feminine" I look to you right? Claiming that I have no problems passing is the same thing as saying I look just like every other natal woman in society because natal women don't get "clocked, harassed or beaten." See, that is making an assumption based on relevant information to formulate a theory. If I cared more, which now I don't, I would then ask you questions to validate or refute my hypothesis in this matter. Your assumptions, however, are baseless.

Pffft, whatever, but hey, you keep making those invalid false cause assumptions though.

Um, I never said natal women don't get harassed or beaten. But transgender women do get harassed and beaten for being transgender, and I don't need to tell you this. As a transgender woman, we're much more likely to get beaten or harassed. I just don't see how you claim passing is of no importance to you, and that you don't care about other people's opinions of you and then go say you put yourself in the most uncomfortable situation when you first started. Why was it uncomfortable? Maybe because of other people's reaction, how aggressive, rejecting or just plain rude they could become upon clocking you. So it had to matter to you at some point, at least enough for you to fear for your own personal safety when out. It's the passing that allows you not to care about passing.

By the way, I am sorry for the assumptions I made.

Quote from: Natalia on October 04, 2014, 11:38:52 AM
That's what I was trying to say =) At least here in Brazil it makes a lot of difference...I see news about trans peopele being killed just because someone clocked them at the streets! I know many trans women who were kicked from bathrooms, parties, restaurants, just because they weren't passable! Sure...it doesn't matter when you pass or when you live in a cave and don't need to interact with people...

Did you understand what Natalia was trying to say? I saw your statistics about American transgendered women, but still, do you really get it that passing can be literally a matter of life and death?

Quote from: Natalie on October 04, 2014, 02:05:11 PM
Yeah, you did and now you are making even more erroneous assumptions...check it out, allow me to reiterate since it escapes your memory:

How exactly am I taking it lightly? Because it is not important to me anymore? Of course the only "reason" must be your subjective opinion of how "feminine" I look to you right? Claiming that I have no problems passing is the same thing as saying I look just like every other natal woman in society because natal women don't get "clocked, harassed or beaten." See, that is making an assumption based on relevant information to formulate a theory. If I cared more, which now I don't, I would then ask you questions to validate or refute my hypothesis in this matter. Your assumptions, however, are baseless.

I'd assume you don't get clocked, because you look like a girl to me. That said, you look like a girl, but I wouldn't think you're a, how did you say it, "a hot, sexy Momma." If I saw you on the street, I wouldn't look twice, because you look female, but not some drop-dead gorgeous creature that friends I know would turn their heads for, let alone turn their cars around for. And you're behaving like a mean spirited, chip on your shoulder brat, not a woman. I know other transwomen with the same attitude as you about not caring what others think, who don't pass, but they understand other girls who are tormented, physically, mentally or both, either because they don't pass either, or have that fear that sits on their shoulder constantly asking themselves, "Do I pass?". I know there is passing privilege, because I have it, in that I can and do go wherever I want, when I want, but if I didn't pass I'm not sure what I would do. I'm pretty thin skinned, and I admire your bravery in the beginning of your transition. However, as you well know, there are many, many areas in our country where you couldn't do what you did in the beginning, if for no other reason than the 'pack' or 'mob' mentality. All it takes is one guy, almost invariably the leader, to stir up the innate hatreds of others. There was even a case a few years ago in North Hollywood Ca., where a guy's girlfriend got jealous of the way her boyfriend was looking at a transgender girl, she not only made a scene till he felt he had to act, she was the first aggressor, smashing the girl in the face when she exited the bathroom in the fast food place they were in. And astonishingly, the manager of the store (who, thank God, lost her job) verbally joined in, egging them on to 'f**k that ->-bleeped-<- up.'

Quote from: Auroramarianna on October 04, 2014, 03:15:07 PM
Um, I never said natal women don't get harassed or beaten. But transgender women do get harassed and beaten for being transgender, and I don't need to tell you this. As a transgender woman, we're much more likely to get beaten or harassed. I just don't see how you claim passing is of no importance to you, and that you don't care about other people's opinions of you and then go say you put yourself in the most uncomfortable situation when you first started. Why was it uncomfortable? Maybe because of other people's reaction, how aggressive, rejecting or just plain rude they could become upon clocking you. So it had to matter to you at some point, at least enough for you to fear for your own personal safety when out. It's the passing that allows you not to care about passing.

By the way, I am sorry for the assumptions I made.

Last, Natalie, why would I want to read your book with your attitude and probably a vocabulary I feel I should have a dictionary close to me? Meretricious? Couldn't you have used garish, phony, insincere, or bogus instead? (I had to look meretricious up) I get it, you're an intelligent young lady. Your intellect will go a lot further when you also treat people with respect and understanding. Now, as Forrest, Forrest Gump says, "That's all I have to say about that." Mira

 
Ok I notice things are getting a bit heated here. I request people calm down and respect other people's point of view even if you can't see it yourself. No argument has ever been won on the internet. Many thanks.

This is why we can't have nice things.
Locked.

Abusive commentary removed, Topic reopened

Passability to me is being correctly gendered by strangers. At least that's what I'm hoping for at minimum.

People I know, close friends/family etc will just have to deal. Those who choose to try to screw with my life will quickly find themselves kicked out of it. I make no bones about that at all. I have life experience and I can be a very forgiving person but you cross me once too much I can be a total b**ch. I made myself who I am. 

Violence? I'm not afraid. I am aware. Learn to defend yourself, don't be a victim. Doesn't have to be with a weapon if you don't like weapons. Look around you and be situationally aware. Anti trans violence is very real. Actually violence itself is very real. We have the knock out game here and other assorted things. I try to stay away from crime ridden inner cities like Newark and Paterson at night too. Not a knock on the people who live there but they do have an established crime problem. There are lots of things I've learned in various training but it all boils down to this - you need to know what is around you and how imminent it is because the biggest weapon they have against you is the element of surprise.

I like viewing passability as having levels. Think of it like a building. The top floor is perfect passability, where you not only are gendered correctly by strangers who look at you but by people who speak with and interact with you on more personal or intimate levels, by people who look at your ID, etc, and regardless of how you look you come across with such confidence that even someone who wonders for a moment about your appearance still decides that you must be female. We enter the building on different floors, since some of us are already androgynous or feminine-looking as males, and some of us are not. The floor I imagine I'm at now is where strangers are unlikely to mis-gender me at a glance, but if they look at me for a long period of time or if I speak with them, they are far more likely to gender me male.

Quote from: Ms Grace on October 04, 2014, 05:40:21 PM

Ok I notice things are getting a bit heated here. I request people calm down and respect other people's point of view even if you can't see it yourself. No argument has ever been won on the internet. Many thanks.

This means that 'passability' is always an extremely sensitive issue among us??

barbie~~

For me personally I am aiming to be able to 'pass'. However I know that whilst I can make every effort to do so, there is still a chance I won't. In which case regardless of how I look, I really just want to 'blend in'. This is mostly about personal security for me and my children. I mean I would never put my children in an unsafe situation, nor would I put myself either. But the truth is I may just be doing that. And so I am making every effort to look like my correct gender, sound like my correct gender, and act like my correct gender. I sure feel like my correct gender so I just need to work on the other things. Again this is about looking after myself and my family. I'm not really precious about what people think about me, but. I am precious about whether they are going to give me or my family any trouble. And so I will try to avoid trouble by 'passing' or 'blending in'.

Quote from: barbie on October 04, 2014, 10:09:28 PM
This means that 'passability' is always an extremely sensitive issue among us??

barbie~~

Apparently so for some...

Quote from: BreezyB on October 04, 2014, 10:20:02 PM
I really just want to 'blend in'.

That's what it boils down to for me.