Quote from: Aisla on October 04, 2014, 11:26:25 PM
Jess
I sense that you are strong, much stronger than many of us.
Perhaps early in our journeys we need or think we need more validation and recognition.  Your point that it shouldn't be necessary is fair but we are flawed, insecure, vulnerable and having been hurt, are often quick to fear or 'identify' an attack or an invalidation. Having said this as I have become more certain of my identity I am less and less concerned by what may or may not be invalidation, deliberate or unintentional.
Safe travels
Aisla

I am definitely not stronger than anyone else here. Believe me hon, nobody is more flawed than I am. I am probably the weakest one here. I am probably the biggest coward here. We have been beaten down. We have been ridiculed, we have been put down. We all should find strength from that. We are here. We are breathing still. We have strength, more than you or anyone will ever know. Whether MTF, FTM, NB GQ, A or whatever else we call ourselves.

That is my whole point. We don't need validation. Personally I don't even want validation from society. We are who we are and as long as we are valid to ourselves that is all that matters. I am valid to myself. I know who I am. But no Aisla, I am no stronger than anyone else. As a matter of fact I am probably weaker than anyone else here. I rally hate to say that but it is true.

Jess

In that case. I will change the language  from stronger to inspiring, motivating and sensational

Really enjoy your perspective. It is refreshing, positive and empowering

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on October 05, 2014, 02:17:35 AM
Jess

In that case. I will change the language  from stronger to inspiring, motivating and sensational

Really enjoy your perspective. It is refreshing, positive and empowering

Safe travels

Aisla

Hon, we are all stronger than what we think. I mean look at what we have been though. I went through it young. Some just realized but always had that feeling of being different and difference is unacceptable in society. Believe me, If someone like me that is nothing more than "chicken squat" can find any kind of inner strength, then I have faith that everyone here can. I mean no HRT even low dose for me other than what nature gave me. I'm still here, and I will be here for anyone else. I do have a little experience dealing with it but what works for me may not work for anyone else.

Jess and Aisla,

I hope I am not butting in too much.  Jess you said that you do not validate, that we are self validating. You're mistaken sugar.  Your thoughts and insistence on taking responsibility for yourself and your life is enormously validating to me and to many others. 

Both of you are teachers here, you have differing styles for sure, but as with yin and yang bring a completeness and power to these pages.  It is wild joy of being combined with articulate consideration which makes me smile just to read your repartee.  Deny it all you wish, there is strength, power and wisdom here which shines and brightens lives.

If I could, and perhaps one day I will be able to, there are maybe six or eight people I would love to gather together from around the world for a space of time to celebrate our individual and joint humanity.  Our respective ages, gender, sex, fears and issues are nothing compared to the power of our collective spirits. 

I am an old drunk and junkie, who tried to die many times and who intensely feels compassion for the lost and troubled ones here.  I come here to share my experience, strength, and hope that I and others might grow and become whole.  Without people like yourselves, lighting the path with wit and wisdom, I could not see to find my way and countless others would also wander the gloom.

The universe has been kind to me and I have been given the tools I need to do what I think is important and what I hope is useful.  On this very thread I've commented on how articulate this group is,  and among luminaries you both shine.  Well I've wandered on this love letter too long and it will morning soon,

Shalom Aleichem

Julie

maybe i'm just generally more sure of myself than most others, that's difficult to know. it didn't take me ling to learn to validate myself. it only took one simple question in search of validation here. and what i got back was the question of whether i am valid to me.

yep, my experience is real. my feelings, my soul, my existence.
so if i know that i am not that, but rather this, then i know it. right?
that's all the validation i need.

this still doesn't make me stop trying to explain whenever someone is interested to know.
but they can't make me feel invalidated, i don't need them to understand me for me to exist.
it gets annoying when people ask but don't listwn to the answer, or when they say it can't be.
but those times, i can throw some well justified rage back at them rather than cry and hide.
but i've been discriminated against for so many different reasons already, that i was perfectly used to it by my 10th birthday.
maybe it's just easier for me to take because of this experience.

Lots of good stuff here for me to learn.
Jess II am right with you dear, and everyone else. Df,all of us.

When repeated invalidation comes, and self validation was not learned early, I think it may be harder to overcome.

I namby nature a peace maker and people pleaser.  A drunk from the late nights of ny, given a chance five.

Smart phones so mess up my posts lol.  More later, love all of you, I thought I  was leaving due to the invalidating and will stay now.

I had felt hurt bad.  I am ok now.   Still so emotional, a lot like my wife, high estrogen is wild.


No worries, forgiven, forgotten, and learning self validation.

Satinjoy

I don't particularly want validation from a system that I view as inherently flawed and broken, however I am supremely tired of having to justify my life and experiences as valid, worthwhile and human to a system that views me as other.

I seek to tear down the system and replace it with something better, but some days all I want to do is sleep and to never wake up.

Taka and I are definitely on the same page here and somehow I'm wondering if a similar shared ethnicity doesn't make us less sensitive to the figurative sticks and stones that seem to break everyone else's emotional bones so easily. I'm wishing you all well in getting a tougher hide and to learn to blow off insipid comments by always first considering the source and the underlying motive and then just refuse to respond to anything intended to do harm. Response indicates a willingness to engage, non-response generates boredom and the antagonist will go away. You can't teach a moron anything new because their mind is closed, they come to the forest with an intended malicious agenda, wishing to draw an angry response to cause the thread to be locked. No-one need to buy into that game! The most pregnant question was put forth by Rodney King some time back, "Can't we just all get along?" My response is yes we can as long as both parties are truly interested.

maybe the right ethnicity has to do with it. if your ancestors came from a coastal area... those from the inland are generally insulted. kind of constantly. they're victims who see offense even where acceptance and frienship is offered.
not a general truth though. just that the few who complain are so much more visible. and annoying in their habit of never letting go of a distant past so they can get on with the future.

but what was i meaning to say... i know people of other ethnicities tii, who have grown thick hides. that self irony and taking back labels to make them less offensive, is something many have in common. but it seems the ones i know are people who've spent their entire youth and often childhood too, learning to validate themselves and be proud of what others try to shame.

Validation:

Not sure if I completely understand what people in this thread are talking about when they talk of "validation" and "invalidation", but here are my free-associated thoughts:

When I think of "validation," I think of somebody reflecting back to me a view of myself that more or less agrees with what I see when I look at myself.  An honest mirror rather than some fun-house mirror.  And gives me the feeling that they're (mostly) okay with what they see.

It's hard for me, though, because I spent my formative years being consistently told I was wrong.  What I did, what I was was just plain wrong wrong wrong.  I guess you could call it being invalidated.  And I got all my flaws enumerated to me in no uncertain terms often enough that I couldn't even pretend to have forgotten them.  Except that I couldn't relate the flaws that I was being told of (for my own good, of course) to what I could see when I looked at myself.  I built up walls to keep other people's opinions of me out, (though enough always got through to hurt), and I learned to just stay away from people, emotionally but sometimes even physically. I don't so much validate myself as transport myself to a plane of existence where there is neither validation (whose absence might hurt) nor invalidation.

So now, even if other people did try to validate me, it wouldn't get through.

Random quote:  "and if you care, don't let them know / don't give yourself away."

Well validation is toxic as it usually comes at the expense of another group, for example cis lives are viewed as being more valid than trans lives, it's not that some arch validator goes around telling cis people how fantastic they are, rather that when ever trans lives are discussed in the cis world they are done in negative and derogatory ways. When a one dimensional "man in a dress" attempt at a trans character is slapped into a film or tv series for comic relief that validates cis as normal by portraying trans as other.

I have zero desire to be validated by a system that throws whole groups of people under the bus like that. I have zero desire to live in a system like that, but I do, and because of that I am utterly tired of having to repeatedly justify my existence to that system. They're called micro-aggressions, not full on violence, but just little ways that the system reminds you every day just how other you are. They come in many shapes and forms, from catcalls to people claiming they want to understand my experiences but end up demanding that I fit my life to their preconceptions of the world.

I am not strong. I am weak, tired, scared, empty and just want peace. Somedays I fear I will only ever find that peace along the edge of a blade.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 05, 2014, 04:03:42 PM
Well validation is toxic as it usually comes at the expense of another group, for example cis lives are viewed as being more valid than trans lives, it's not that some arch validator goes around telling cis people how fantastic they are, rather that when ever trans lives are discussed in the cis world they are done in negative and derogatory ways. When a one dimensional "man in a dress" attempt at a trans character is slapped into a film or tv series for comic relief that validates cis as normal by portraying trans as other.

I have zero desire to be validated by a system that throws whole groups of people under the bus like that. I have zero desire to live in a system like that, but I do, and because of that I am utterly tired of having to repeatedly justify my existence to that system. They're called micro-aggressions, not full on violence, but just little ways that the system reminds you every day just how other you are. They come in many shapes and forms, from catcalls to people claiming they want to understand my experiences but end up demanding that I fit my life to their preconceptions of the world.

I am not strong. I am weak, tired, scared, empty and just want peace. Somedays I fear I will only ever find that peace along the edge of a blade.

What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

Quote from: cathyrains on October 05, 2014, 04:38:25 PM
What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

Quote from: kinz on October 06, 2014, 02:40:32 AM
what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

You have to look at the FACT that cis people live in the binary and have been trained that way since birth. It takes a lot for them to break that mold so we can't blame them for "categorizing" trans people. It is simply their upbringing. It was not on purpose, jeesh!

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

I am sorry this has been your experience as not all of us have had that. I have some wonderful friends who treat me as I am. Could it be something other than being trans is causing this?

Quote from: kinz on October 06, 2014, 02:40:32 AM
what do you mean, what does it achieve? trans people aren't the ones who categorized ourselves in the first place. you know who it was the first time around? it was cis people, and they created the categories of "normal" for themselves and "deviant" for trans people. you wanna talk about prejudice and false perception? you wanna talk about aggression?

man, i've never met a cis person i was out to who hasn't done something screwed up to me. i've never met a cis person who didn't dish out a little bit of pathetic pity with their "kindness." it's stuff like this that makes me care less and less as time goes on about cis people's feelings, opinions, and ideas.

Wow.. That attitude speaks volumes..

Quote from: kelly_aus on October 06, 2014, 03:15:53 AM
Wow.. That attitude speaks volumes..

I know right? I think the anger is why the difference, not the trans status.

Quote from: cathyrains on October 05, 2014, 04:38:25 PM
What does it achieve to categorise people as "cis" or "trans"? Does that not create exactly the sort of prejudice and false perception that gives rise to the aggression you have witnessed? I have witnessed as much kindness and understanding from "cis" as I have "trans" and easily as much aggression from "trans" as I have "cis".

The oppression, prejudice and aggression existed before the labels. Gender variance in western cultures has been frowned for a long time. The cis heteronormative patriarchy without fail views cis het white males as the norm and everything else as deviations from that norm. Dehumanising language, such as referring to cis gender identities as 'normal' and trans gender identities as 'deviant' are acts of systemic violence. It reduces us to objects, removing our agency to live our own lives on our own terms. We are other, not seen as human, our lives viewed by the cistem as inherently less worthy than those of cis. We are killed because of this, our deaths going unreported (especially TWoC) and often viewed as getting what we deserve (trans/gay panic is still a valid defence in many countries). Everyday we navigate a system that finds us abhorrent and seeks to remind us if this. Every day. Having decent, human friends who treat you as a person does not mean the system is not there, it just means you are lucky enough to have decent, human friends, many don't.

And cis have the affront to view being labeled as such an act if aggression, not because it dehumanises them, but because it reminds them that they are not normal, merely more common.

The willingness people have to generalize from their own experience in this thread is really disturbing. There are trans people who have been abused and mistreated by cis people. It is unsurprising that their attitudes might be a bit different from your own. If you don't know anything about someone's life I would strongly recommend you don't make assertions regarding their personality or behaviour for fear of casting yourself as rather insensitive. If you were under the misapprehension that you are behaving well or appropriately perhaps now would be a good time to review your posts, reconsider your words and issue apologies where appropriate.

And for the record, I really, really miss Nero. He never would have tolerated this complete failure of etiquette in our forum.

It saddens me to see instances of people taking 'sides' and 'US' and 'THEM' attitude doesn't fit my perceptions.

I consider gender to be a sliding scale going from 100% male all the way over to 100% female and very very few people would hit either extreme and I also think that your place on the scale can and does change over your lifetime.

Alice
xx