Quote from: sororcaeli on October 04, 2014, 11:57:30 PM
I think one of the biggest issues people have is trying to find evidence based on someone else's reported experiences or what some religion has claimed as the true nature of God. God, to me, isn't something to go looking for, or something that you can just suddenly accept as real. Your life experiences must lead you to that moment of realisation. If you never get there, then no big deal, because all that matters is how you move through this life, how you treat others, and your journey to self-love. Spirituality doesn't have to be so specific for everyone. Simply being genuine, compassionate, and appreciative of the wonders of nature is spiritual enough.

I know. You can go back and read some of my posts and I have always defended "something" But I am losing that now. Sort of like, "Hello, is there anybody out there?" Think Pink Floyd. I am just to the point that I don't think there is anyone out there anymore.

BTW, nice pic for your avatar. I just can't defend a myth anymore. I'm done, I think anyway.

Quote from: Jess42 on October 05, 2014, 12:58:18 AM
I know. You can go back and read some of my posts and I have always defended "something" But I am losing that now. Sort of like, "Hello, is there anybody out there?" Think Pink Floyd. I am just to the point that I don't think there is anyone out there anymore.

BTW, nice pic for your avatar. I just can't defend a myth anymore. I'm done, I think anyway.

Thank you. And you don't have to defend any myths. I certainly don't. I do try to explain them, though, from occult perspectives. If someone wants to participate in a religion, in my opinion, they should be prepared and willing to study its origins and contemplate its mysteries. To call oneself Christian and not be able to explain every last psalm, parable and metaphor in their scriptures is like calling oneself an artist simply for appreciating the works of Dali and Picasso. It's lazy, mindless, and utterly pointless.

Quote from: sororcaeli on October 05, 2014, 01:34:55 AM
Thank you. And you don't have to defend any myths. I certainly don't. I do try to explain them, though, from occult perspectives. If someone wants to participate in a religion, in my opinion, they should be prepared and willing to study its origins and contemplate its mysteries. To call oneself Christian and not be able to explain every last psalm, parable and metaphor in their scriptures is like calling oneself an artist simply for appreciating the works of Dali and Picasso. It's lazy, mindless, and utterly pointless.

You are completely right. I use to ask my catholic ex wife why she didn't eat meat on Fridays during lent and she never could tell me. This went on for 4 years. You would figure she would at least ask someone that knew why. Not that I care. I respect it but at least know why and she didn't. Just she knew that during lent you didn't eat meat on Fridays. I'm not even catholic and I fasted totally on Fridays to be a stubborn bitch. She wasn't near the bitch as me. She had to eat. Sorry to any Catholics out there, I mean no offense whatsoever.

I should also add that there's a big difference between being an orthodox Christian and being a follower of Christ's teachings. If someone is the latter then there's nothing wrong with that. You're simply trying to live a moral and humanitarian life. There's nothing pointless about that. I wouldn't say that makes anyone officially a Christian, though. I appreciate many of the views of Ayn Rand as well as Carl Jung, but that doesn't make me a Randian Objectivist or a Jungian acolyte. Labeling oneself under any religion or philosophy should come with great responsibility and dedication to all of its doctrines and duties. If you can't do that then you're really nothing more than a bystander with just enough appreciation to stay a while.

Quote from: sororcaeli on October 05, 2014, 01:56:05 AM
I should also add that there's a big difference between being an orthodox Christian and being a follower of Christ's teachings. If someone is the latter then there's nothing wrong with that. You're simply trying to live a moral and humanitarian life. There's nothing pointless about that. I wouldn't say that makes anyone officially a Christian, though. I appreciate many of the views of Ayn Rand as well as Carl Jung, but that doesn't make me a Randian Objectivist or a Jungian acolyte. Labeling oneself under any religion or philosophy should come with great responsibility and dedication to all of its doctrines and duties. If you can't do that then you're really nothing more than a bystander with just enough appreciation to stay a while.

Humanitarian? Yeah. Moral life, not so sure anymore. I just don't know. I see a lot of evidence for nature but not too much for even a non intervening devine entity anymore. I pray for two things every night, this or that, and neither one is granted. But others pray and it seems like those are answered. Even when the person is a butthole. And I wake early in the morning and watch TV and these poor children dying from cancer at St Jude's Hospital. But a 66 year old man has his prayers answered. I don't know. I guess I'm just bitter. I see things like that and at 46 I would trade my life with theirs for them to have a life past 13 or 14. I have lost my Faith. Evil is all there is or seems to be and an all powerful God can't make a 12 year old little girl live a full life. Especially when I pray to die and pray for God to take me and let one of those little children live?

So do I believe in god. Not really anymore. I pray, I would sacrifice my life for one of those little children 'cause I'm just tired and my prayers fall on deaf ears but someone that is so scared to die, prays to live and that is granted? Life seems to be my curse. Even if it is a little fun sometimes. I don't want to be 80 years old.

I think sometimes to Jessica that we mistake what appears as prayers being answered or not answered with just the natural struggles of life and death.?
I don't believe prayers are answered as often as some wish, or not in ways our minds can understand.?
I'm becoming much more cynical about God also, but mostly cuz I'm so angry at preachers and believers alike, who use the bible as a way to punish and condemn others they don't understand, nor will bother to even try to understand,

Oh I could go on.! But I left my soap box home..

Quote from: Jess42 on October 05, 2014, 02:17:26 AM
And I wake early in the morning and watch TV and these poor children dying from cancer at St Jude's Hospital. But a 66 year old man has his prayers answered. I don't know. I guess I'm just bitter. I see things like that and at 46 I would trade my life with theirs for them to have a life past 13 or 14. I have lost my Faith. Evil is all there is or seems to be and an all powerful God can't make a 12 year old little girl live a full life. Especially when I pray to die and pray for God to take me and let one of those little children live?

Well, I think when you stop thinking of God as some bloke in the sky who answers (or doesn't answer) prayers, and more of an impersonal, higher state of consciousness, you'll find more appreciation for what it means and how it really has no interference in free will. Prayer, to me, is just the force of intent, and has no guarantees upon anything terminal whether it's death, lack of success, or poverty. It isn't meant to guarantee results, just as in Thelema when Crowley explains that in your magickal working one should do so "without lust of result". A god that has been set up as a saviour is a god that is going to disappoint you quite a lot. Personally, I'm more of a Pantheist. I don't rely on any higher entities, or venerate them, or deify them, or expect them to grant my wishes. Nature has its rules and its order, and "God" simply provides the formula and the foundation. When you can tune into that, as you go about your life, you can start to see that formula manifest itself, and then you can begin to apply it. Then a new clarity sets in and you can navigate with far more ease. The only down side is that the obstacles become more challenging, because this newfound clarity is a brand new set of tools so that you can take on these obstacles when you might not have been able to previously.

Quote from: Mark3 on October 05, 2014, 02:40:33 AM
I think sometimes to Jessica that we mistake what appears as prayers being answered or not answered with just the natural struggles of life and death.?
I don't believe prayers are answered as often as some wish, or not in ways our minds can understand.?
I'm becoming much more cynical about God also, but mostly cuz I'm so angry at preachers and believers alike, who use the bible as a way to punish and condemn others they don't understand, nor will bother to even try to understand,

Oh I could go on.! But I left my soap box home..

You wanna' borrow my soapbox? Yeah the whole universe may be misunderstood.

Quote from: sororcaeli on October 05, 2014, 02:43:42 AM
Well, I think when you stop thinking of God as some bloke in the sky who answers (or doesn't answer) prayers, and more of an impersonal, higher state of consciousness, you'll find more appreciation for what it means and how it really has no interference in free will. Prayer, to me, is just the force of intent, and has no guarantees upon anything terminal whether it's death, lack of success, or poverty. It isn't meant to guarantee results, just as in Thelema when Crowley explains that in your magickal working one should do so "without lust of result". A god that has been set up as a saviour is a god that is going to disappoint you quite a lot. Personally, I'm more of a Pantheist. I don't rely on any higher entities, or venerate them, or deify them, or expect them to grant my wishes. Nature has its rules and its order, and "God" simply provides the formula and the foundation. When you can tune into that, as you go about your life, you can start to see that formula manifest itself, and then you can begin to apply it. Then a new clarity sets in and you can navigate with far more ease. The only down side is that the obstacles become more challenging, because this newfound clarity is a brand new set of tools so that you can take on these obstacles when you might not have been able to previously.

But I have never thought of God as some old dude in the sky. One thing I pray for myself. the other things I pray for those children at St Jude's and another for al the people like us that is contemplating the unthinkable. So that may work but some it didn't though. But I think I could pray until my face turns blue and they would never be heard. Maybe I really don't need to pray anymore. It seems to hurt more than it helps.

Quote from: sororcaeli on October 04, 2014, 10:26:51 PM
It's so odd how Scandinavia seems to be covered in churches and yet there are far less Christians. Or maybe that's just Norway? So, how do the Finnish compare the God of Abraham with Ukko?

It could also have to do with our peculiar religious... habits, I suppose? Like I mentioned earlier, really the only occassions when people need church are the specific events in life and some also use the Bible to justify certain things, like for example why homosexuality etc is wrong. Other than that, especially Finns keep to themselves minding their own business. It's in our culture that we don't poke our noses in other people's business.
Thus there might be a considerable amount of Christians but we just don't make a big fuss about it. It's not a big part of people's lives, it's just in the background and taken out whenever it's needed, which is very rarely.

I must say I'm impressed that you know the name of the head deity of the ancient Finnish mythology! But sadly, there isn't much left of the said mythology in the modern day. Finnish as a language wasn't a written language when Christianity was brought into Finland so nothing about the traditions and beliefs were written down by their original practitioners. I'm quite sure that's the reason why Christianity effectively wiped out our original beliefs and replaced them with their own teachings while also combining them with the ones we already had. For example, I noticed that Hell in the Bible is referred to as Tuonela in the Finnish translation, and Tuonela is the underworld of the Finnish mythology where everyone went after death, good or bad. The only punishment for bad people were beds made of stone!

But as for Ukko, as far as I know he was more like a force of nature given personality. He was, after all, the god of thunder and to this day, thunder is called ukkonen in Finnish. The weather condition with possible thunder is known as ukonilma, more or less "air of Ukko".
We also have several other words and sayings in modern Finnish that have their roots in the old beliefs.

But really, one has to do some serious studying to find out things about the ancient Finnish mythology. The most easiest access in a way is the Finnish national epic Kalevala which has lots of characters from the mythology. Also, quite interestingly its events end when Christianity arrives, hmm...

I did read however that the early Christian priests in Finland were frustrated because people here weren't giving up their old beliefs very easily. We held tight to our belief that every house has a house elf (tonttu in Finnish) and it was given food and drink to prevent it from leaving which would've meant bad luck for the house. Even some saunas had them. So I wouldn't be surprised if we had been holding onto the old gods as well.
I can't really say much about this matter, though. Internet is really poor in this subject and really the best source so far I've found has been Wikipedia. I repeat myself like a broken record but I put quite a lot of weight on the status of Finnish language. It became a written language in the 1500s when one man decided to make it so but even after that, it was the language of the poor people and all the educated and rich people used Swedish.

But honestly, if I ever were turn religious in anyway, I think I would turn to the old Finnish pagan gods.

Quote from: Wynternight on September 29, 2014, 08:48:34 AM
He failed in this one because I can't handle this. Thanks, bearded dude in the sky, thanks for nothing and kiss my hindquarters. Proselytize elsewhere.

He didn't fail you failed yourself because you can't handle it and God never gives you trials and tribulations that you can't bare or handle don't blame this on God, why is it so hard to believe that God had a plan maybe you were weak and this was his plan to make you stronger.

Quote from: Jess42 on October 05, 2014, 12:58:18 AM
I know. You can go back and read some of my posts and I have always defended "something" But I am losing that now. Sort of like, "Hello, is there anybody out there?" Think Pink Floyd. I am just to the point that I don't think there is anyone out there anymore.

BTW, nice pic for your avatar. I just can't defend a myth anymore. I'm done, I think anyway.

Nah maybe many people are afraid to speak out about what God has done for them because there are alot of atheist on this forum. But God doesn't need anyone to defend him he will show himself in time.

Quote from: Brandon on October 05, 2014, 11:36:54 AM
He didn't fail you failed yourself because you can't handle it and God never gives you trials and tribulations that you can't bare or handle don't blame this on God, why is it so hard to believe that God had a plan maybe you were weak and this was his plan to make you stronger.

Do me a favour and ignore me. I come here to be free of preachers and proselytizers. I failed myself? 

Quote from: Wynternight on October 05, 2014, 11:49:24 AM
Do me a favour and ignore me. I come here to be free of preachers and proselytizers. I failed myself? Go screw yourself.

Yea you did, no ones trying to preach to you I am not one of thoes guys who trys to judge everyone, but I do try to get people to look at both sides of the picture, just because you have had bad experiences doesn't mean become a non believer, when thats probaly not evn how God views you, you have completely missed the point but its ok.

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Quote from: Brandon on October 05, 2014, 11:56:39 AM
Yea you did, no ones trying to preach to you I am not one of thoes guys who trys to judge everyone, but I do try to get people to look at both sides of the picture, just because you have had bad experiences doesn't mean become a non believer, when thats probaly not evn how God views you, you have completely missed the point but its ok.

You've been judgmental every time you post. I'm done with you.

Quote from: Brandon on October 05, 2014, 11:36:54 AM

Quote from: Wynternight on September 29, 2014, 08:48:34 AM
He failed in this one because I can't handle this. Thanks, bearded dude in the sky, thanks for nothing and kiss my hindquarters. Proselytize elsewhere.

He didn't fail you failed yourself because you can't handle it and God never gives you trials and tribulations that you can't bare or handle don't blame this on God, why is it so hard to believe that God had a plan maybe you were weak and this was his plan to make you stronger.

You are not to pass judgments on others beliefs any more than they are welcome to pass judgement on yours. You are free to talk about how your spirituality affects your life, but you cannot proselytize or attempt to convert others.

You know when your puppy has nightmares? That's who I pray to. Seriously though, for the sake of brevity, I'm atheist but I believe in the possibility of some form of afterlife(as the word atheist implies, a godless afterlife). I'm always somehow insulting in conversations like these so I can't usually have them with people who aren't close. However, I've never been close enough with anyone religious to actually have the conversation. I laugh a LOT at religions expense, which doesn't usually sit right with them. Great job anyone who got the reference.

Quote from: TabbytheDruid on October 13, 2014, 03:16:30 AM
I'm always somehow insulting in conversations like these so I can't usually have them with people who aren't close.

I tend to be like this, too which is kinda lame considering I'd like to have sensible conversations on this matter but... meh.

Quote from: TabbytheDruid on October 13, 2014, 03:16:30 AM
I laugh a LOT at religions expense, which doesn't usually sit right with them.

I do this, too.
Also, I see what you did there, hehehehehe.

I know there is a positive, healing, pure, and wonderful energy out there but I do not believe there is an intellectual and/or intelligent being, deity, or 'God' in control. There is FAR too much anger, rage, violence, murder, hatred, etc in the world and its only getting worse. How could ANY 'God' allow or desire this? It's ridiculous to think there's a grand plan here that benefits humanity.

Quote from: Brandon on October 05, 2014, 11:56:39 AM
Yea you did, no ones trying to preach to you I am not one of thoes guys who trys to judge everyone, but I do try to get people to look at both sides of the picture, just because you have had bad experiences doesn't mean become a non believer, when thats probaly not evn how God views you, you have completely missed the point but its ok.

But that is exaclty what it means Brandon. Our life experiences dictate what we believe. There is no difference between non belivers and believers. Bith want to have and deserve a comfortable happy life. Lived to their fullest potential. If there is a heaven and a hell, who has control over who goes where? I have seen some non believers that would go to a heaven and I have seen some blelievers that would go to hell. I have seen some non believers that have live more "righteous" lives than some believers.

We can't judge. I won't even try to. I have no authority or Devine power to Judge anyone who is right or wrong. Me personally, I am in no way deserving of a Heaven. If I burn in hell then fine. But I will stand with my brothers and sisters. If I burn, according to some, then so be it. I did and am doing what I think is right. Right? That is the first part of Righteousness?

Sorry Susan. I hope I didn't break any TOS.