Today I came across this site http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_Wiki and read some tumblr posts by (mainly) FTMs, and have seen that many of them identify as genderqueer, transmasculine or bigender, etc. I've never been much into LGBT stuff and I think that in a way, making an LGBT community, people are (in a way) hindering the process of completely becoming equally accepted in society ^{but thats just my own opinion and experience}

Anyway... today I think I managed to find out what made me concerned about these things. People who identify as any non-binary genders basically reject and refuse to use labels and are offended when labeled, but by coming up with things like bigender, multigender, polygender, pangender, transmasculine, transfeminine, non-gender, agender, gender neutral, etc. and the list goes on- they are essentially coming up with new labels and from my experience, other people love to make fun of this and it is actually sort of cringe-worthy.

What do you think about this? What are your experiences, and how do you feel about this?

If you think those are labels that people will make fun of - you have not seen the labels that make all those ones you pointed out look very tame in comparison. 

I have seen people use alexigender, stargender, technogender, royalgender, nekogender (found at Mogai-archive on Tumblr)... I am not joking. People on tumblr create labels out of thin air. Why? Because they can. There's probably a good reason why these haven't made it onto the Gender Wiki. It's not just gender identity labels, they do it to pronouns too. Fae, faeself etc. is one example. Jin, jinself, etc Jingle because someone wanted there to be pronouns for Xmas...? Okay then.

I identify as trigender (shifting through three genders or present as all three at once) and have come out to the wonderful family here at Susan's. I explained my story and how I came to the conclusion of the label expressing my identity in the best possible way. I was met with acceptance and unconditional support.

In general, I just do not spend time worrying about what other people think. If I'm happy with my identity and my existence, that's all that matters to me. People's thoughts and opinions simply do not matter because they aren't living my life.   

Quote from: caliyr on October 05, 2014, 09:33:41 AM
. . . they are essentially coming up with new labels and from my experience, other people love to make fun of this and it is actually sort of cringe-worthy.

People who hate us are going to make fun of us no matter what we do.  I don't think many people pay much attention to trans issues.  I've never met anyone who was sympathetic to transpeople who worried about stuff like that.

I come across stuff that I personally find a bit silly.  Maybe it's not, but if it is, no big deal.  There are silly people among our ranks, but it's not as if there aren't any silly cisgender people.

I think many of them are after uniqueness, being their own special kind of snowflake, different from everyone else. Every generation has those that want to rebel against the way things were in the previous generation because they want their own identity and such. I wouldn't make fun of them though.

Labels are descriptive terms that enable us to discuss our experiences without repeatedly having to describe them. They also help us identify commonality.

I'm not sure what advice I have for folks who make fun of these, because the only thing I can think of is anatomically impossible.

/hums softly

I like labels which are functionally useful and communicative. For example, transfeminine, bi-gender, agender, non-binary ... most people can hear those words and get the idea of what the person is trying describe, and there's a significant number of people who hold these identities. They aren't tiny niches, though I'm sure they appear that way to some, but decently large buckets which can contain a range of individuals and expressions. As they should.

On the flipside, I sometimes grow irritated with words like "nanoboy" ie: someone who identifies as predominantly female, with just the smallest smidge of dude. Is that really necessary??? Are you in anyway helped by this one-drop trans rule??? Would it not be easier, simpler, more productive to see yourself as a cis woman, whose gender expression transcends conventional femininity? I'm yet to meet someone who can explain what it means to feel like you are 1/100000000th male without resorting to some tired microwaving of gender roles ("I don't like barbies, so I must be trans!"). But maybe it is a thing, who knows. Who am I to dictate, right?

The last thing I want to do is to alienate people, though, or to make them uncomfortable or unhappy. I just see the increasing personalization of gender as somewhat counter-productive. Those fancy new pronouns are a good example. The point of pronouns is that they are more or less universal, that a stranger could use them without knowing anything about you, other than your gender. When one chooses to use "sprout/sprouts/sproutself" as a pronoun because they like plants, they're kinda negating the usefulness of pronouns in the first place. I mean, maybe I'm up my own ass about this. I do prefer "they/them," after all. I'll admit, I have a little bit of a bug up my butt, because people treat my pronouns as some kind of wacky new thing, just because they first encountered some kid who identified as leafy greens.

I used to get really mad about this, but now that I'm more comfortable with myself as a trans person, I feel much MUCH less concerned with the identities of others. Back when I was more questioning, I was a little consumed by the micro-gendering thing. Like: Am I [abc]? Why didn't I fit in with [xyz]?? STOP SAYING [PQR]!!! It drove me mad. Nowadays, I'm just like "alright, whatever. You do you."

*stares*

My eyes have been well and truly opened with this thread.

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 05, 2014, 03:48:59 PM
Labels are descriptive terms that enable us to discuss our experiences without repeatedly having to describe them.

The trouble is, if you're the only one who understands what your label means, you'd have to keep explaining it anyway, wouldn't you? I think that's when it tends to go a step too far - when the label you create for yourself has no meaning outside of that which you give it. Those ones EchelonHunt stated, and a fair few in the OP... someone could say they were one of those to me and I wouldn't have the first clue what to do with that information beyond a bit of a vacant stare followed by "Uhm, okay. I'm not really sure what that is but... if you say so."

Investigation, acceptance and expression of identity is important.  The language or taxonomy used to describe and classify or identify relevant groups is also important.  The danger with reductionist language is that the majority speaks for;  selects terms which empower the privileged or majority group; and over powers or subsumes, rather than integrate and express the shared and lived experience of all trans*. So my view is that the terminology and language used needs to be situationally appropriate, inclusive and respectful. There is a time for micro identity and a time for group identity

Aisla

I may have a shorter experience with use of these terms than most here, but I feel more and more that I don't want to be labeled as anything as far as names, descriptions, etc..
I just feel it still keeps me in a sort of box or within walls or boundaries, even if they are much more broader that before.
I'm more comfortable with the term trans, it's much more inclusive of everyone in all the gender identities, or the other term Non binary, but that sounds so technical and scientific to people in the CISworld, and kind of sterile to me for some reason.? I'm still pondering these things.

Quote from: EchelonHunt on October 05, 2014, 10:08:11 AM
...stargender...

Got no idea what it means but it sure sounds really, really cool.

Personally I don't see myself as "he" or "she" just as "me" and I'm going to live my life with as few labels as possible.

If I come across the (to me) quite strange ones like plants or princesses I sometimes think 'What on earth are you doing using that pronoun?" But in the end I don't really care. Everyone has the right to decide their own identity for themselves, maybe it will be slightly difficult to adapt but people around me have said that for my change of pronouns too. As long as they don't expect me to identify them as a plant or a princess or a fae... on sight I'll manage

Doctors might call it transsexualism, sex dysphoria,  gender dysphoria, etc. The idea is the same. I have a medical condition, a mismatch between some wiring in the brain and the rest of my body. It causes my body to feel foreign, which in turn causes distress (dysphoria). Some people call it a "body map" in the brain. I understand why some people describe it as being trapped in the wrong body, but that strikes me as oversimplification. It IS my body, but parts of it were (prior to treatment)/are wrong according to the stubbornly unchangeable blueprint in the brain.

I've had trouble but am trying to wrap my head around "agender"/neutrois/gender-neutral - an eye-opener for me was reading from folks who use this term about their experience with dysphoria, feeling like certain parts of their body shouldn't be there, but not necessarily feeling like they should have the "other" set of sex characteristics either. I don't think I completely get it. Maybe I can't ever quite get it, the way a cisgender person won't ever quite get what I'm dealing with, but I'm trying to at least understand it on a conceptual level.

I object to the bunself sproutself noun-self tumblr crap however. A rabbit isn't a gender, it's an animal. A tree isn't a gender, it's a plant. These are biologically completely separate things from humans. There's no way for a human brain to be mapped out to be a tree. It's not cute and harmless. Some young trans people are going to their parents for help, only for their parents to go online for information and encounter this stuff about identifying as a sea cucumber and having "dysphoria" for having tear ducts when sea cucumbers don't have tear ducts. (That's not hyperbole, but nearly a direct quote from a tumblr which thanks to Poe's law I cannot know whether it was satirical). Things like that make it that much harder for these kids to get their parents to take them seriously.

captains also makes a point. Some people, in this big rush for a special label, seem to be mixing up gender expression/presentation, hobbies and interests, and actual gender, and thinking that wearing a flannel shirt or not liking to play with dolls makes them a semidemigirl or what have you. That's not "breaking down the binary", that's reinforcing stereotypical, traditional gender roles. It implies someone isn't a "real girl" or "real boy" if they aren't a living stereotype.

Quote from: blink on October 06, 2014, 01:53:07 PM
Doctors might call it transsexualism, sex dysphoria,  gender dysphoria, etc. The idea is the same. I have a medical condition, a mismatch between some wiring in the brain and the rest of my body. It causes my body to feel foreign, which in turn causes distress (dysphoria). Some people call it a "body map" in the brain. I understand why some people describe it as being trapped in the wrong body, but that strikes me as oversimplification. It IS my body, but parts of it were (prior to treatment)/are wrong according to the stubbornly unchangeable blueprint in the brain.

Every so often here I read something and feel like a light turns on, and I "get it".. This is one of those..
Duh, Mark finally knows something now. 

I think this kind of exploration is useful.

I'm not even going to touch those nounselfs and whatnot else simply because they confuse the heck out of me and also because I simply don't understand them. But hey, live and let live. It's not my business anyway.
But they always make me so happy and grateful for being a Finn. No gendered pronouns, yay!

I sometimes feel a bit of a minority, being pretty binary guy with trans background. Yeah, I don't even identify as a trans man etc anymore. I see me being trans as part of my medical history, not my identity. Easy way to explain why I prefer to be stealth: people usually don't go around announcing their medical history to the public.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 06, 2014, 03:51:44 PM
It's not my business anyway.
But they always make me so happy and grateful for being a Finn. No gendered pronouns, yay!

Two comments. 1. It is our business. Difficult to come up with a proper example, but a somewhat comparable case would be: it is the business of people with actual, clinical Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, when someone else says crap like "I'm soooo OCD" because they wash their hands after touching something nasty, or they're a little fussy about keeping their room neat, but not to the point of it interfering with their life. It contributes to public misunderstanding and trivializes a real condition.

2. Finnish has no gendered pronouns? That sounds very interesting. So everyone is a "they" basically? Are there separate words for a singular they vs. plural they? If you don't want to answer that, no sweat, just curious.

Quote from: blink on October 06, 2014, 04:10:10 PM
Two comments. 1. It is our business. Difficult to come up with a proper example, but a somewhat comparable case would be: it is the business of people with actual, clinical Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, when someone else says crap like "I'm soooo OCD" because they wash their hands after touching something nasty, or they're a little fussy about keeping their room neat, but not to the point of it interfering with their life. It contributes to public misunderstanding and trivializes a real condition.

2. Finnish has no gendered pronouns? That sounds very interesting. So everyone is a "they" basically? Are there separate words for a singular they vs. plural they? If you don't want to answer that, no sweat, just curious.

I basically meant that it's not my business in the way that I don't like poking my nose in other people's business. And these exotic pronouns and identities are just so confusing to me that I personally see it's better for me and others that I don't touch those matters. I guess I'm too backwater redneck for them.
I don't know, it's hard to explain my thoughts and feelings about this matter. I understand it can be a sensitive matter to some so that's why I'm a bit reluctant to talk about it because I don't want to offend anyone and my outlet is sometimes a bit... rash, I suppose?

In Finnish, he and she have the same pronoun, "hän". It is "se". There's no messing around with different sorts of theys here. The funny thing is that in spoken Finnish, nearly everyone is referred to as "it" without anyone considering it to be impolite or rude. Although, dialect affects that a little.
In general, Finnish lacks gendered words these days when it comes to professions, for example. The only one that comes to my mind is "palomies" which is literally fireman. Back in the day, adding "-tar" or "-tär" to the end of the word made it feminine. Like female teachers were called "opettajatar" instead of "opettaja".

Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 06, 2014, 04:26:21 PM
In Finnish, he and she have the same pronoun, "hän". It is "se". There's no messing around with different sorts of theys here. The funny thing is that in spoken Finnish, nearly everyone is referred to as "it" without anyone considering it to be impolite or rude. Although, dialect affects that a little.
In general, Finnish lacks gendered words these days when it comes to professions, for example. The only one that comes to my mind is "palomies" which is literally fireman. Back in the day, adding "-tar" or "-tär" to the end of the word made it feminine. Like female teachers were called "opettajatar" instead of "opettaja".

That's interesting. Sounds like how in German -in is added to make it feminine, e.g. Lehrer vs. Lehrerin. English has -ess, but it doesn't seem used much these days. There are actors and actresses, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone referred to as a teacheress.
Thanks for explaining some about Finnish.

Quote from: blink on October 06, 2014, 04:37:21 PM
That's interesting. Sounds like how in German -in is added to make it feminine, e.g. Lehrer vs. Lehrerin. English has -ess, but it doesn't seem used much these days. There are actors and actresses, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone referred to as a teacheress.
Thanks for explaining some about Finnish.

This genderless pronoun stuff kinda affects my views on things. English as a language seems terribly gender centered, if not even obsessed, when everything needs to be assigned with a gender. Like there was once a thread about a game character's gender at one forum since the game itself didn't give them one. It was rather active thread and I was there like "WHO CARES".

But I'm always ready to tell little somethings about this weird country.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 06, 2014, 04:43:05 PM
[...]English as a language seems terribly gender centered, if not even obsessed, when everything needs to be assigned with a gender.

Well, then, imagine what you'd think about languages like French in which there are basically 3 ways of saying "a"/"the" and almost every noun has a gender; "la, le, les" and "un, une, des"
For example, wine is masculine, beer is feminine. The way my French teacher taught us was "think about it this way. Women like wine and men, men like women and beer." I cringed every time.

La bier, le vin, etc. And depending on the noun's gender, it will change when used in different context with adjectives, for example.

Adjective: vert (green)
   Masculine singular   vert
   Feminine singular   verte
   Masculine plural   verts
   Feminine plural   vertes

(I'm not an expert on French, used to learn it for 4 years, so correct me if I'm wrong.  More on this page http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/adjectives_2.htm )