Earlier this week, a fairly naive friend asked me how I could be transgender if I didn't like men.  One thought led to another, and now I am sitting here ruminating on just how ingrained the idea of what it means to be a trans* woman is-you need to be feminine, heterosexual, like wearing heels on a daily basis, want to marry a man who will take care of you, grow your hair out-I could go on but you all get what I'm saying.  We need to fit into these stereotypical roles to prove that we are women.  And some of you here do, but others (like myself) don't, and I feel like our community is really suffering as a result of this fairytale we've whipped up: If you are trans, you must have known from the day you were born.  You must have cross-dressed as a child.  You must have thought you were gay and suppressed those thoughts, until at some point you decided to get a plane ticket to Thailand and that's it-you're the women you were always meant to be!  You can't be bisexual, or gay, or lesbian.  You can't have a sexuality that is anything other than vanilla, and you certainly can't connect your sexuality to your identity in any way.  You can't identify as something other than male or female, and not look exactly like what you identify as.

This is idiotic, and I wish I could say that I've only seen this among uneducated cis people-but that's not true.  I saw a trans* woman I met briefly going on about how a transgender person who doesn't seek out surgery isn't actually trans*.  And I've seen it here too-I'm not writing this in the interest of starting a fight, that's the opposite of what this is about.  What this is about is expressing how upset I am that this mentality exists in the community.  If someone says they are trans*, they are trans*.  There are transgender people who don't want surgery, and their experiences are valid.  There are trans* people who have traditional, binary identities and want to fit into traditional roles in society.  Those identities are valid, with the understanding that there are identities outside that binary.  There are also people who do not subscribe to traditional gender binary, and our experiences are valid too, with the understanding that we aren't saying yours are any less valid.  And people who don't want (or in my case, cannot access) surgery, don't fit neatly into one category or another, don't fit into the standard narrative-yeah, we do face a few more obstacles than a stealth post-op transsexual.   But her experiences are just as valid as my transgrogynous ones, and neither of us has the right to put the other down. 

I understand that it's a bit alarming for a binary person to see someone living without the system that their identity is based in.  And sometimes it's a bit weird for us to see people who identify as part of a system that we feel restricts us.  But guess what?  We are all trans*.  We all face oppression for more or less the same reasons.  We have similar needs, and we need to all make sure that the needs of all transgender people are met, no matter how they identify.  We need to stop treating the identity of any transgender person and the struggles they face as a personal challenge.  We are all in the same boat for better or for worse, and the sooner we stop shouting at one another the moment someone brings up how it is harder for non-binary non-straight people to get hormones or how important passing is to some (often, but not exclusively binary identified) trans* people, the sooner we will be on our way towards a community that welcomes people of diverse experiences and identities. 

This is important.  Frankly, I'm a bit sick to my stomach that an online community of some of the most oppressed people in the world feel the need to fight one another in interest of securing a standard narrative within the community-this isn't a one sided thing that's going on (and frankly, there should not BE sides here).  Anyhow, I'm done with this post, but anyone who reads this-please.  Please.  Can't we just accept that we are all trans, and we are all different?

Thanks.

Don't equate hewing to the standard narrative with being binary. That's an old idea that some people still believe. Because we're not a tight knit group and "The Narrative" is well published that's the first impression many people are given. Jan Morris gives an archetypal rendition of it in "Conundrum" and that's all people see at first. I suspect it slows a lot of people down. If you fit it, it's easy to buy into it, if you don't it can make you question your transness. My endo is one of the most prominent in the field in this region. I may be the first person like me he's ever seen and he was really suspicious.

I am pretty feminine in my thinking, but still evolving, so I don't entirely self-describe as binary. Given my preference for outdoor activities, jeans, leather, motorcycles and women, most likely I'll end up a diesel dyke. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

What?  Oh no, I wasn't!  Just that being non-binary is one of the biggest deviations from the naritive!  Besides, unless you're a 50s housewife or a bodybuilder cowboy, everyone is a little nonbinary

No argument from me but, like being bi, most people are close enough to the extremes that peer pressure keeps them at a pole. If people need the illusion that they're really binary, or straight or gay, or if they really are, who are we to burst their bubble, eh?

I certainly identify strongly with a female gender binary. I am also a pretty feminine person, but I am also not attracted to men at all. So I also embrace the fact that I am a femme lesbian....(not that anyone else seems to be embracing this fact, maybe after SRS this will change ).

I have had quite a few people, totally not understand that sexual orientation and gender identity are not the same thing. I suppose I fit close to the classic narrative, in many aspects, but I mean I am just not attracted to men. I am kinda frustrated and annoyed with the people in my life who don't seem to respect the fact I am not. I have been on hormones for some time, and I just have no attraction to them, it is what it is. I am not confused or anything about what I am finding attractive.

I admit, I don't really get being nonbinary, but I don't really have to get it. I understand that it is the way some people are, and it isn't the way I am. Just like some people are straight, and some people are butch. I still make every effort to treat others with love and respect, and if there is someone I really don't like I just avoid them.

I'm a little confused by this conflict my self. all I want is to enjoy my life without discrimination in any form

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 12, 2014, 01:35:32 AM
You can't identify as something other than male or female, and not look exactly like what you identify as.

You'll find this is a narrative that cis people have to deal with too. Just because they identify as the gender they were born as doesn't mean they fit neatly into one box and yet it is expected of them and just as strongly enforced from day one.

The sad fact is that all minority groups resort to in fighting. It's silly, pointless and counter productive and yet they do it. So what is the solution?

the easiest way to stop infighting is finding a common enemy, and make up a reason why we have to fight them or die.
has been sone by many leaders in the past, to stay in power over a mistly divided nation or other group of people.

dysphoria and siscrimination would be a good common enemy. we can make it work if we want to.
the cis society would be a bad choice for an enemy. it's not persons we fight, but a world view that won't allow our existence, and will try to hide it either by denying treatment or forcing full transition on people. depends a little on which location or community.

Thank you for this!!

That standard narrative almost talked me out of transitioning, and it was enforced/perpetuated entirely by other trans people. I believed that since I didn't know when I was a kid and didn't have suicidal dysphoria, I wasn't really trans. I think some people who say that are genuinely well-meaning - they're trying to prevent someone from "making a mistake" - but they're inadvertently causing a great deal of harm by assuming that there's some set of guaranteed markers that *all* trans people have (besides identifying as trans).

Now that I've gone through GRS, I'm more often recognized as a legit trans woman... but I try to push back against that as well, because the shape of my genitalia should have nothing to do with whether or not someone is willing to listen to the story of my experiences.

Alas, AndrogynousPainter, you're too right. People have a hard time imagining how other people couldn't be just like them. I've had a well-known psychiatrist disparage the notion that I might be trans because I could urinate standing up. I've been berated by a trans woman for not wearing heels. I've been told that all trans people crossdressed as kids. Etc. Etc.

i have a cis-hetero female friend who despises heels, and even feminine winter coats. to her mother's disappointment.
she's still very clear on being both cis and hetero.

i personally love heels, but only for a couple hours at a time. they bring death to my feet.
but i'm no cis woman at all. not even much of a trans woman in me.

standard narratives are so pointless.

I am learning more about the trans* spectrum and myself by being here. The concept of non-binary was pretty foreign to me, but I'm learning. That said, it is not for me.

You say that trans* (MTF) people are ultra femme because they/we want to be accepted by society. I don't know about that. I think most trans* people simply want to be their chosen gender, period. Most of us wish we were born as our chosen gender. I know I certainly do, because I have dysphoria not only about the appearance of being female but also childbearing and pregnancy, which realistically can never happen for me. Baby bumps are a trigger for me and sometimes they'll shut me down for a whole day and more. Anyway I think that a lot of MTFs are ultra femme because we're enjoying that part of our lives which has been repressed for so long.

i think you might have misunderstood a little, kate.
nobody is saying you can't be feminine if you are.
but there are also trans girls who are more of the tomboyish type, and there are trans guys who just love pink.
there are gay and lesbian and straight and bi and pan and asexual and all kinds of trans people.

but i think there is a pressure from society, medical professionals, even trans communities, to fit in. to be like everybody else.
i and many others would feel a lot better if at least fellow trans people didn't tell us to listen to that inner voice that tells us to just be the manly man or girly girl we are, take the step to full transition and similar. because some of us have an inner voice that say something completely different.

it is a struggle to be oneself when it goes against society's expectations of conformity.
it is disheartening to be told by one's doctors that one is not trans enough to get any treatment at all.
but it's even more exhausting to have to defend one's own and others' non-conforming identities against peer pressure within the trans community.

i love girly girls. i think it's wonderful to see men and women blossom as they finally become themselves on the outside as well.
but i also appreciate the manlier girls and feminine guys, and those who are somewhere around both or neither.

all i'm wishing for is a world where being me is accepted as just as natural as being you or him or her or it or zhe or them or...
and where medical treatment is a human right, whether you are a girly girl, feminine woman, proper lady, tomboy, femme guy, male chauvinist, macho man, househusband, working wife, non-binary something or other, or something completely different from anything i've mentioned thus far.

ultra femme sounds lile a nice thing to be. i hope you continue to be that for as long as it feels natural to you, even for your entire life if that's how long it lasts.

I am by no means ultra femme. I am pre everything actually. That said I have a desire to be an ordinary girl who can be ultra femme when she wants, because it makes me feel nice when I do.

androgynouspainter,  your post is a balm to my eyes.

Quote from: ImagineKate on October 13, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
I am by no means ultra femme. I am pre everything actually. That said I have a desire to be an ordinary girl who can be ultra femme when she wants, because it makes me feel nice when I do.

i notice how you said "be ultra femme when she wants".
that's really what all of this is about.
to be able to be anything you want just because you want it, without anyone telling you that you can't be yourself because you wanted the wrong thing.
the norwegian and danish systems dictate that you should be ultra femme all the time, 24/7, even if you don't want to, if you wish to transition (mtf/a/nb).
that's not a good thing.
neither is it good when a non-binary person is told that they're too feminine or masculine to be nb, and should just go for a full transition.
it feels odd when others say things like that. as if i can't be me just because i'm feminine and masculine.