So, here's a mad idea...

It can be quite difficult to explain some elements of being transgender, let alone being non-binary, often the words to explain it just haven't been invented. So in such linguistic vacuums, imagination often has to jump in to fill in the gaps. So to explain, I feel that my female-leaning non-binary identity has crept upon me, sort of like a virus. I wonder if anyone else may find this similar to their own experiences and feelings of identity...

To borrow from Inception - I feel like a gender within a gender, (within a gender?) I appear to have been fine with being a boy and being known as a boy up until I was around 11.  Was I really aware of what that meant back then? Not sure... I was big on fantasy and would imagine myself as any number of mythical beings (such as a mermaid) or simply a talking cat. If people mistook me for a girl (as I was quite androgynous as a child) I'd feel embarrassed, but I also had no interest in being one of the boys. The idea of affirming my gender through specific toys and actions did not occur to me. Perhaps in this vacuum of a solid and fully realised gender identity, a sort of "virus" feminine identity struck and begun to work its way through my identity and personality, silently at first.

I began by imagining I had a sister that no one else could see, then she disappeared from my pysch. As I grew into 9, 10 and 11 I became fascinated by women, it was like a gravitational pull, something I needed to discover, a misty, warm and comforting feeling of recognition and wonder. I begun to wonder if I'd been female in a past life. 11, 12 turned to adolescence. I discovered sexuality and sensuality, both finding out that I fancied girls at the same time as I found out that I liked the feeling of wearing (what I'd much later find out were called corsets).
I had a few dreams where I looked like a girl, or a woman, and fund these dreams to make me feel energised and...wistful, yet hopeful. I didn't understand the feelings, and to a large extent, still don't.  My mid teens were when I begun buying girls' clothes, frustratingly, I can't remember why I first started back then, but I know since then, the feelings and reasons have changed, but how much and where to where, I don't know. By late teens I'd realised that I wasn't like most guys, so I identified as metrosexual. But still, in the shadows of my mind, the concept of being female and what it could mean to be feminine were seeping into different areas of my life - my short stories increasingly soley focused on males with female pastlives, my need to wear coats with silhouettes that had nipped-in waists got stronger and as I didn't feel I identified with famous males, I increasingly found myself daydreaming that I was a famous actress or singer that I liked. It was as if this femininity was invading each cell of my identity, and turning it to it cause, undermining any male affiliation further and further. But still, I considered myself as resolutely male and a straight male. But my sexuality then became compromised, when I had to admit that I imagined being a girl in a relationship, quite often. This was completely at odds with my sex drive which needed to date girls. I now realised that there was this whole "girly" side to me, which threatened my masculinity, or so I felt.   

After a period of purge where I literally though "I want to kill this!", I had a huge relapse, and I decided to accept this femininity as a part of me. I made a list ditch attempt to see wether I'd been female in a pastlife, or whether I had a chemical imbalance, or even whether I had a female spectre or spirit attached to me! When none of these avenues yielded any reason, I decided to begin a conscience investigation into my femininity. And here I am now.

So to sum up...I do wonder whether my femininity invaded m very frail masculine identity, slowly pushing it towards female, once element, characteristic and inclination  at a time until it became the dominant gender identity. This femininity has rushed out of me in recent years like the air from a bowels of a sinking ship. There's this massive amount of femininity, I have no idea how much, I don't seem to ever reach my limit really as to what I'd be capable of. I'm now at potential HRT, and I wonder If this will be my limit, where my remaining masculinity finally says "that's enough. You've reached the correct feminine/masculine balance for your identity and form. There will be no further spread". 

So what now? Because it kind of feels like this feminine virus wants to, effectively - kill the host. The male body isn't right for it, so it must be killed in order to inhabit a female one.

I still have a lot of masculine identity. I have a sort of composite identity, strong bits of each, each jostling for position, trying to make it work in my current form and in this binary world. 

Its all rather amazing, really.

The wording of your femininity being a virus that wants to kill the host sounds pretty negative. Do you see your femininity as something foreign and threatening? Why?

Lot there my dear... Will try to post tomorrow.

It's scary as we go through the process, different yet the same, but I believe that it is not viral, but more of a metamorphosis into your truth.  A discovery of what has always been there, and the process of surrender, without losing the core of who we are.

More later, need time.

Blessings

Satinjoy

I was also disaffected with the male role assigned to me and had some desire for some feminine things.  I didn't feel that I was a woman (and I was likewise too defensive to accept the idea anyway), but I resented the expectation of conformity.  However, there was a pronounced change around the age of 10 or 11 (think puberty), when some of the clothes began to appeal to me.  It was really just a few years ago when I began questioning whether I was really male either, and a little HRT I think has me close to where I need to be.  I feel like I have been on a journey to find who I am, and I don't think I've been "infected" by anything other than (over time) a better sense of myself and a greater imagination of what is possible.  I don't think I'd really feel comfortable throwing away all that is "masculine" (even looking beyond stereotypes), so I'm just trying to continue to listen.

Gender inception...I like it. A gender within a gender.

"Virus" does have a negative connotation, but I think I see what you mean. I can relate in the opposite direction. I've thought of it more like being possessed...but in a desirable way. I'd never let it overtake my femininity, though. That must be one of the reasons why this took me so long to understand--because I AM somewhat feminine. Too feminine to be a tomboy, but not feminine enough to be a regular girl/woman. Or, not the right kind of feminine. I've never related well to masculine women, but I relate quite well to feminine men. Hell, I married one.

Is there any way for you to be friends?

Seriously.


I am in a similar situation as you, if you are looking at part of yourself as a virus, it's less useful, than looking at that part of yourself as a somewhat adversarial friendship, if you can make that happen, deals can be made...

if there were a virus that could make me grow male body parts, i'd make sure to catch it.

my personality isn't a virus, neither is my gender.
i did feel for a while that there was some struggle going on between yin and yang, and one was trying to kill the other.
but it ended when the whole thing realized it was just a pendulum swinging back and forth between them because they had not yet found any common ground where they could rest.

we made a deal in the end, which we're still sticking with.
the struggle ended when we decided to look for the answer together and never go in one direction that the other(s) seriously don't want.
we'll get comfortable in the end. we're already friends, but all agree that we aren't too happy with the house we live in, so this is what we'll change a little bit.
starting with a little, stopping if it gets too much. that's what we agreed to do.

neither of us is a virus, we're just inhabitants of the same house.
we used to conform, had the same decorations as all our neighbors.
but that isn't working anymore. there are parts of the house that must be removed or added. changed a little, in order for all to be happy.
some of us are tired of staying in the cellar or attic just so the neighbors won't notice that i am different.

Taka's description of the end acceptance result is really cool, I can see that happening in me now, it is the recent change, the merging of the presentationally socially fluid identities into the core.

I don't see it as viral or possessive, but I do see it as fairly unhealthy to attempt to resist the component that is really us, not an outside force of some kind, something in my case that I was born with, that tormented me when I tried to get rid of it, that eventually forced me into an acceptance of it and a learning to live with it.  Not a friendship relationally but a loved one now.  Family, within, maybe.

The typical scenario of the inevitable transition and takeover seems to be a theme here, with the burying of the old self, the loss.  I see pictures of me pretransition and I feel that loss too.  But its not really lost, it is still there, and I can draw on his stregth and core values at any time.  But there are days where I greive for that man.  The man that used to be me, and is no more, yet is.  The tormented father that was the rock of the family, now the freed father that is still the rock of the family, on the foundation of spiritual stregnth we know I believe so strongly in.

So it becomes about surrender to the one inside that has been ignored, or maybe not ignored, but who cries out for love and attention and validation from inside and out, and the dysphoria fuels the fire of the need to transition and bring the body into allignment with our cores.

But the core remains, if we are non binary, for it is blended of the cis birth and the other one(s).  The core is everything, it is the key for me, it is that center that knows the truth of who we are, that voice within that says yes this is right or no this is false, it is deep inside us, and it is for me the diamond of truth and trans, and more than trans,  it is the place where spirit, flesh and soul meet and  commune with God and life itself.

But the power of the description of viral is not ignorable, the power of dysphoric and identity need is greater than my will, eventually it will break the will, and the more I fight it the more powerful it will become, the more psychic destruction will result within and without the life I live.  It is relentless, it is cunning, it is real, it is me.  I cannot run away from me, me always dogs my heels, it always catches me, no drink or event can outrace the woman within , or the man within for others.

So we surrender to our truth, fear distorts and gives more power to the other component than it should need, it grabs on in fear that it will be ignored, not fed, not nurtured, but seeing it for its value, its beauty, this will help greatly, seeing the he she in our eyes, acknowledging it and getting to the place where you can say I love you into the mirror of your eyes and soul.

Once we own the me, the totality of our truth, we can live it and love it and be it, and make the decisions we must to live our lives as exceptional people, those called by birthright to be trans, to be of courage, to be free spirits, to find truth and live it.

That is my take on it.  Not viral, but powerful, part of the me, part of who we are, inescapable in the end, but not the one that will stand in the end either, we are nonbinary, it is a part of us, but not the whole, denying that is to deny ourselves and our truths, and to have the same pursuit of the other ignored component or components chase us around the track once more, until it too overtakes, and we find ourselves alone staring into a mirror wondering what could have been had we only not self decieved and understood.  The binaries experience a different reality, but not us, our reality is blended genders, it is foolish and deadly not to know this, for us.   We must live truth, a lie will eventually destroy, but the truth of who you are will set you free.

Do not fear the she in you, my dear, you know who you are at core, relax into this.

Love to all here

Nails out, hair down, heart open, living my turth.

Satinjoy

Virus has such a negative feel to it, they invade the host and either consume it or are destroyed by it. Are you scared of your femininity? If you're thinking in terms of being invaded by it, why do you feel it's doing that?

Also what do you mean by femininity? Is it a core feminine identity, or just the desire to act and behave in ways that society deems feminine? If it's a core identity, why think in terms of being invaded by it, if it's just the desire to act in behave in ways that society deem feminine, then they are completely arbitrary and you are free to act and behave as you choose and describe them in a way that matches your gender identity.

Only you can determine what your core identity is, and while I absolutely believe that we construct our gender identities from a variety of cues, it doesn't mean that they are not real. You define your reality not anyone else.

one thing should be said in the viruses' defense though...
science seems to have theories about how viruses can cause mutations, and are responsible for a whole lot of evolution in the different species on earth.
they try to kill, but sometimes end up creating a stronger individual that gets stronger offspring.

i'm still not sure that gender is like a virus though. maybe it's the fake persona, forced on you by others, that is the real virus. and defeating that, will make humanity even stronger in the future.

A virus is not always a destroyer, sometimes it is also a changeling as Taka observed. Viruses carry genetic material into cells, we are in some measure the accumulation of a billion years of viruses, appearing, adding, changing.  It is not to kill the host, but to align the host to its environment.  It has taken decades for me to become the person that I am, and I remain a chimera.  But the time came three years ago, when my gender bell was rung, my brain and body were overwhelmed by the urgent need to grow, change, become a woman.

Since then some equilibrium has returned, the viral load is stable.  You all help keep the condition manageable, but it is still there and one day as often happens in our community it may overwhelm and kill me.  That is not a tragedy as it helps me stay focused on who I am and what I need to do continue to grow into whatever it is that I ultimately will become.  Transition is not so much in remission, as it is paused, waiting for my brain and body to synchronize.

No, I think the notion of dysphoria as virus has merit.  It allows me to see the progress, the overwhelming of my defenses, and the re-stabilization into something new and wonderful.

Thank You,
Julie

Quote from: Taka on October 14, 2014, 08:39:51 AM
one thing should be said in the viruses' defense though...
science seems to have theories about how viruses can cause mutations, and are responsible for a whole lot of evolution in the different species on earth.
they try to kill, but sometimes end up creating a stronger individual that gets stronger offspring.

i'm still not sure that gender is like a virus though. maybe it's the fake persona, forced on you by others, that is the real virus. and defeating that, will make humanity even stronger in the future.

I ascribe that line of thinking too!

Stella Stanhope, where have you been hiding?

Wow! More replies than I'd ever imagined I'd get for this post, which I felt may have been too individual or down-beat for most. Plus I don't post much, mainly because I come on here for a while, then I panic about the whole situation and try to forget about it, but I always need to come back here, and of course ultimately, my issue isn't going to go away. There's some really interesting and thoughtful replies here! And thank you for the encouraging comments

I'm basically in the departure lounge for transexuals now- I have £1,000 set aside for all this: my sperm banking sessions are booked, as is my visit to the private doctor to write the prescription together with the necessary tests and of course, the prescriptions themselves. So this REALLY is it. This could well be a massive economical and biological catastrophe if I am mistaken and this goes pete tong. And I won't have anyone else to blame. This is an extremely pressurized situation now, I have fight or flight symptoms whenever I have to address all this.

The reason why I could see my femininity as a virus, is because for me, its been a very sloooooooooow build-up of emotions, characteristics and affiliations. It hasn't been clear at all. And its very clearly very much at odds with my masculine characteristics. For instance - I am attracted to women, yet feel more confident in dating them if I look female myself. BUT.... as I enjoy using my genitalia, I presume that disqualifies me from classing myself as a female lesbian...

I am about 90% happy with non-binary identity now, I feel MUCH happier and more alive since accepting it, adapting to it and ultimately celebrating it. BUT....the issue that makes this acceptance a very bitter "achievement" is that despite the fact that two genders can easily exist in almost perfect balance within my own mind and heart, in the outside world and in my physical form - only one can be dominant. So one has to be killed off more than the other. I win and I loose whichever decision I make now. And because of this, part of my brain is still to rationalise my feminine identity as the (seeming) insanity of taking hormones scares the sh*t out of it.  And so the virus analogy seems to fit, yes its negative, but it also feels accurate in my case. Though, ultimately, I do feel that my feminine, yet very non-binary identity is genuine and has been either built from scratch, or simply grown in strength from the beginning, due to a combination of many different factors. Its possible I will never know whether this was caused in early childhood or was in-born from before birth.

Oh yes, my femininity. Part of my identity is something that only society deems as feminine - certain clothes, interests and self-expressions could easily be unisex but currently society sees them as solely feminine. Another part of my identity definitely is feminine and female - mainly my general feeling of how I should look, react emotionally and present, which would be the results of females hormones as opposed to cultural stereotypes. The other part is quite masculine- penetrating women, high sex drive, my deep voice, not minding to known as a father -  these are all things I enjoy, even though I don't approach them in the same way that cis-normative males do. Male lesbian is the closest description I've found to describe myself, but due to the other above characteristics, it skews the scales more towards to female. I'd say that I am 60& female, 40% male in my mind and heart. Which makes this a bloody annoying identity to work with. 

I have felt, for many years. and certainly do now - that I feel (in effect) as if I'm the spirit of a lesbian female joy-riding a male body (and chasing girls!) around in this lifetime, and is becoming increasingly tired and upset by it, despite the attractions. I may make a separate post about this, as I feel I need to explain this concept more (as it does sound rather fanciful and silly!)

Quoteneither of us is a virus, we're just inhabitants of the same house. we used to conform, had the same decorations as all our neighbors. but that isn't working anymore. there are parts of the house that must be removed or added. changed a little, in order for all to be happy. some of us are tired of staying in the cellar or attic just so the neighbors won't notice that i am different.

I love this analogy!

QuoteThe typical scenario of the inevitable transition and takeover seems to be a theme here, with the burying of the old self, the loss.  I see pictures of me pretransition and I feel that loss too.  But its not really lost, it is still there, and I can draw on his strength and core values at any time.  But there are days where I grieve for that man.  The man that used to be me, and is no more, yet is.

I identify with this, too.

I guess....I wish.....that I could just KNOW, and be able to make sense of this identity.

Quote from: Stella Stanhope on October 15, 2014, 09:48:01 AM

I'm basically in the departure lounge for transexuals now- I have £1,000 set aside for all this: my sperm banking sessions are booked, as is my visit to the private doctor to write the prescription together with the necessary tests and of course, the prescriptions themselves. So this REALLY is it. This could well be a massive economical and biological catastrophe if I am mistaken and this goes pete tong. And I won't have anyone else to blame. This is an extremely pressurized situation now, I have fight or flight symptoms whenever I have to address all this.

I am about 90% happy with non-binary identity now, I feel MUCH happier and more alive since accepting it, adapting to it and ultimately celebrating it. BUT....the issue that makes this acceptance a very bitter "achievement" is that despite the fact that two genders can easily exist in almost perfect balance within my own mind and heart, in the outside world and in my physical form - only one can be dominant. So one has to be killed off more than the other. I win and I loose whichever decision I make now. And because of this, part of my brain is still to rationalise my feminine identity as the (seeming) insanity of taking hormones scares the sh*t out of it. 

You and I have had extensive conversations about this in the past and I wondered if you were ever going to make a move one way or the other on this issue, so it's interesting to see that you are finally making some kind of forward momentum. Keep in mind that you needn't use any feminizing HRT at all if you have reservations about it, or you could opt for a light dosage just to quench some of the dysphoric noise in your head rather than get into a full female hormone replacement. Discuss that with your provider.

I guess....I wish.....that I could just KNOW, and be able to make sense of this identity.

You'll have to excuse me for sounding like a parrot, but if you don't know for certain then you absolutely need to spend some quality time in counseling dear, because what I'm reading here is that this decision is absolutely horrific and potentially life threatening for you. I wouldn't want you to have regrets having been influenced by all that you have read and internalized here at Susan's.

what Shan said

The emotions at transition start were intense for me, and my dysphoria was driving the bus so to speak.  Eventually all rationality vanished and all I could see was the hormones and another life.

Thorough gender conciling from someone that understands both binary and non binary has been essential in developing my understanding of trans, and listening to the sages that remain in the forest.

Listen you your Auntie Shan, they are wise.

Blessings,

Satinjoy

Yes, indeedy Auntie Shan, we have had many an enjoyable and enlightening conversation, which really has really helped, as has posting and reading on the forums too.

Am I sure? Nope. But I doubt I'll ever be sure, as my identity just seems incompatible with itself. How I see myself in my head- that's pretty clear, I'm happy with being on the spectrum of being a mtf non-binary, with many a day where I'm also closer to being very much a femme-boi. My trouble is in keeping that balance in an ever masculinising body and in a binary society which reserves a special hate for people like me. I don't want to change or take hrt because it's Russian roulette with my body. That fear of destroying my health will always be in my mind. That's not to say I don't want hips, small boobs, soft skin and responsive emotions and to be seen as much more female. It's just that I'm angry that I'm in this position, no win situation, or at least a win loose situation.

Yes to therapy!! So far all therapists just haven't been able to grasp what I'm saying, so it's been frustrating despite the benefit I've gained from the sessions.

The final most problematic thing, and the key to my anger is that I don't want to destroy my fertility and my genitals, because a man IS their penis. If it doesn't work youcant have kids of your own and definitely no girlfriends, and so I risk loosing a future of a family, if I didn't feminise at all either, then I'd simply be literally a broken, "ugly" , impotent and infertile feminine man. The absolute worst position to be in in society. Id have nothing. I dont know if therapy could ever erase these intense fears.

P.S When I say " a man IS his penis", I'm not invalidating non op ftm transsexuals, what I'm saying is that if youre born male, there's a massive stigma against males whom women think are defective. Read any romance novel and the women will focus at some point on how big the mans genitalia is. I read a non fiction book about women's fantasies and they all almost solely dwell on the man's penis, the rest of the man IS irrelevant seemingly. Funny that, as that's exactly what Blanchard and co expressly stated that's exactly what disqualifies a mtf from being a true female, if they have those sorts of fantasies.

I don't see my own genitalia as my being male, I see it as a fun thing to have when I want to date girls, and a very neccesarry thing to have in order to give life to a child. But im aware that if it doesn't work, as I'm biologically male and I look male, I'll be written off as scrap of it stops working.
No offence intended at all by this post btw, and I hope it isn't triggering. I'm not angry with this forum or people in general, just my situation. I also haven't feel pressured to transition actually, which is good, I feel it's been quite balanced and helpful support.

women's fantasies are just fantasies. most would run in fear if a man pulled out something that big, hoping to use it on her.

your fear of not being able to have children seems very similar to what many cis women experience.

i have already used my own reproductive organs for their original purpose. they worked perfectly, but now i don't want to ever use them for that again. i was afraid i'd somehow be infertile. it can happen, and is even more common with some often invisible imtersex conditions. not that i have any, to my relief and disappointment.

non-binary is difficult when wanting more than biologically or medically possible.

i think there are those who can make their equipment work even on hrt. but it would still affect fertility, so only way to be fairly sure, is to freeze down some seed. easier for the maab than the faab to get kids after transition...

The only thing that triggered for me is I want that cute dress and my bones are too big...lol

The penis thing,  no I don't think so.  Mtg trans noop are a special genre, at least I think so, the Nonbinary reality of my , truth anywayit can be tougher for the full time girls, maybe, but probably not.  I would love to get rid of the leftover, it's just not right for me in this time and circumstance.

People like different presentations, it's not worth people pleading.g to what you think they want. You are not there. 

It is about what fits you, if you are single then be authentic and you don't have to worry about the compromises some of us late transitioners face, you can go right in with your core and your body in sinc.

Find a therapist that gets Nonbinary.

Random.thoughts here.

As go the male equipment, it can be bought separately..

High hrt I cannot perform as the dominant role in bed.. the mind is also in it, my physical mtf transition on hormones is all girl.

Dunno if it helps.

I don't believe the Blanchard work, although there are similarities to my story.  It misses my truth.

Blessings

Satinjoy