Recently I heard about stealth shaming and guys saying that you owe it to the community to come out and if you don't then you're just taking advantage of what the "out and prouds" have worked for. If I came out to my doctor then I should be able to come out to others, or if I'm in a safe spot I should come out cause if I don't then I am ashamed or if I deny it then I am ashamed. This makes me ask the question of what exactly is a "safe space" ? Does such a thing really exist ??
Of course a group of other transfolk is obviously a safe place to be out, but just because I'm not going to get "beat up" or have rude stares or rude question asked doesn't make a space "safe" at any work environment I could come out and not lose my job because there are discrimination laws.
Sure I may have a job and co-workers might not be allowed to physically harass me or verbally harass me, but as soon as my back is turned they may gossip and trash talk me all they like...to me that's not safe, my name could spread around and I could end up getting harassed outside of work.
Even if people don't go as far as to harass you, they might treat me differently like ask me awkward questions or simply refuse to see me as another guy, even if they don't mean it in a rude way..they might just not understand what dysphoria is like and they may not take me seriously. They migh treat me different even subconsciously......I come to work to do my job and make a living and educating people about trans issues isn't my duty, I don't want to explain anyhing to people that I work with, it's not like I'm friends with them outside of work or anything, personally I would find that exhausting. I don't want to be some wierd novelty.
So what is a safe place to you ? Are they as common as you think? Is safety a spectrum?
This is why I think stealth shaming is really bad thing. I don't want to be completely negitive and say safe spaces only exist in fantasy idealistic worlds, but truly 100% safe places seem few and far between.....

Honestly? Since I feel female I act female and prefer to be treated and perceived as female. If a trans woman chooses to be out and proud then good on her, I am outspoken and proud in the company of those who knew me before my transition and I don't hide it. But why the heck would I out myself in every new place I went? I am a woman!

We are all women (or men for the fella's on this site) shouldn't we have the right to be perceived and treated as such?

Alice
xx

Quote from: Alice Rogers on October 14, 2014, 04:18:15 PM
If a trans woman chooses to be out and proud then good on her, I am outspoken and proud in the company of those who knew me before my transition and I don't hide it. But why the heck would I out myself in every new place I went?

I agree. There is no way in hell I would out myself for it's own sake. That makes no sense at all. The only person I am concerned about is myself as far as this is concerned. I'm not taking a chance on screwing my life up just because some dork says that I should. The hell with them. They don't live my life. I DO!

I don't really understand why it would be such a bad thing to live stealth. Sure, kudos to all those who are out and proud, it takes guts to do that and I admire those people. But for me personally, being trans is part of my medical history, not part of my identity and last time I checked people don't spread their medical histories around. Besides, I've been waiting to be able to go stealth so long that now that I'm finally able to do so, you can be damn certain that I'll do it!

you being stealth doesn't mean you're "ashamed" of who you are or where you come from. why does it matter if you're trans or not? good for people who come out but some of us just don't want to and there is nothing wrong with that. i'm stealth, why am i stealth? because i want to live my life and not constantly explaining, getting dumb questions, etc. it isn't a bother to me that i am trans but i am 100% sick of having to explain to people when in all honesty, it is none of their business unless i'm sleeping with them. most people also go stealth because of discrimination, etc. nothing wrong with it.

as for "safe places" even some trans spaces aren't safe. why? because of the whole "you aren't trans enough" argument that tends to go on. you like lipstick but identify as male? no trans enough. don't pass? not trans enough. these kinds of things don't make places that should be safe, well..safe. honestly if you don't wanna be out and wanna go stealth, go ahead. people who shame you into coming out are ridiculous. it doesn't make you any less of a supporter or someone who is working towards the trans movement.

On one hand, I do understand the point that the activists are making.  The general public's view on trans people is limited because most people are only aware of the transitioners in the awkward phase and the freakshows on trashy talk shows.  So the fact that most of us blend into normal society does hurt our cause.

That said, most people are simply not interested in being activists.  I'm certainly not.

Quote from: invisiblemonsters on October 14, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
as for "safe places" even some trans spaces aren't safe. why? because of the whole "you aren't trans enough" argument that tends to go on. ... honestly if you don't wanna be out and wanna go stealth, go ahead. people who shame you into coming out are ridiculous. it doesn't make you any less of a supporter or someone who is working towards the trans movement.

I've actually heard from some people who transitioned 20+ years ago that if you're not aiming to be stealth, you're not really trans.  And IMO their ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou attitude is just as harmful as those who want us all to be activists.

One thing I've learned since becoming more involved with trans communities and people is that A LOT of trans people are too emotional. Just thought I'd get that out of the way in case I offend someone here. 

I'm not completely against going stealth, but it does bother me a little bit (I say this knowing that even I will probably be stealth if the opportunity arises). Not because I feel they "owe it" to the community. I think it is just helpful for those struggling pre-transition. It's tough coming to terms with being transgender and when you look for local help most of the only help you'll find will be those who are struggling as well and don't blend in. So it is a bit disheartening to those who do hope to blend in as well.

Let's be honest, every trans person just wants to blend in. But those struggling to come to terms can use more success stories.

I've never undestood the logic behind the idea that being out automatically means you're providing some sort of benefit to the trans community. Someone might be out but be ignorant and obnoxious, giving a bad example of what trans people are like. Meanwhile someone who's stealth in everyday life can get on a forum like this and pass on advice to others. Whether someone decides to be stealth or out has a lot to do with their personality and where they are in life, and you really shouldn't judge someone whatever their choice is.

Thing is tho you don't even have to be out to help people. Some of the best advice I've gotten has been from guys with trans related info on their blogs. They don't have any pics posted no videos, no full name listed. They're completely anonymous, yet they are helping tons of people out by sharing their experiences and answering questions, giving encouragement etc...So to say that stealth guys do nothing is untrue.

Basically I see stealth as a spectrum....you can be out in some situations like if you want to work with community members and help out other trans people who are struggling in their journey and then remain stealth in other aspects of your life like at your job etc...Or be even more on the stealth end, by running a blog for trans people behind a CPU screen.
Just in no way should someone be shamed or judged by remaining stealth, you don't know the sort of situation that person might be in.

No one is required to be an advocate, and I'm not signing up. I get that visibility is a good thing, but I know a lot of gay people who feel the same way in regards to their sexuality and being "out and proud". They are people who happen to be gay, just like I'm a guy whose T comes out of a vial. I'm in no way required to wear a sign on my forehead. I don't want to be "that trans friend" just like a lot of gay folks I've talked to dont want to be "that gay friend".

This isn't to say I'm super stealth. If someone asks me and it's situation where I'm comfortable I have no problem telling them. I've done it before and I know I will again at some point of someone asks. Around here I just get the realization that "oh! You and the other foreigner are gay guys!" In that case I just say yep and move on.

I get that activists (some anyway) do good things for the community. I really do. But I've seen some nasty stuff about them even here in the past. I don't want to be in that situation where I'm trying to help only to have other trans folks get upset because my scars are being seen so now everyone knows what top surgery scars look like. Or that I'm gay so I'm giving off the vibe that all trans people are gay or have a gay fetish. It gets messy honestly. I've stopped myself from saying things about out and proud trans guys because it isn't my business how they choose to live. I've seen shaming on out and proud and on stealth.

I try to be as live and let live as possible and if I disagree, that's on me and my problem, not someone else's for being happy.

IMO, I have seen as much shaming re: NOT going stealth. There's also a lot of expectation that when trans guys pass, they would automatically go stealth, so that you are expected to go that route. Things like you aren't secure enough and that sort of thing. So I think there might be lack of acceptance both ways, just from what I've seen. I think that you could count on your fingers the number of posts about situations and problems of living out. I am on the channel "It's a Man's World" (yuck for the name but anyway), where the videos all of them assume that you will be stealth.

I think it's your own decision, and rarely a complete thing anyway. The most stealthy of stealth person tells *someone* and the most out of out people will not go go a store and say "I want plastic and I'm transgender".

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 14, 2014, 10:26:26 PM
IMO, I have seen as much shaming re: NOT going stealth. There's also a lot of expectation that when trans guys pass, they would automatically go stealth, so that you are expected to go that route. Things like you aren't secure enough and that sort of thing. So I think there might be lack of acceptance both ways, just from what I've seen. I think that you could count on your fingers the number of posts about situations and problems of living out. I am on the channel "It's a Man's World" (yuck for the name but anyway), where the videos all of them assume that you will be stealth.

I think it's your own decision, and rarely a complete thing anyway. The most stealthy of stealth person tells *someone* and the most out of out people will not go go a store and say "I want plastic and I'm transgender".

--Jay

I agree.  I think the knife cuts both ways and I've heard of/seen stealth guys put down non-stealth guys, particularly when it comes to showing off surgery results, as some stealth guys fear that such outness will equip people with a "transgendar" a.k.a tell-tell signs that could potentially clock them.

I can certainly see it both ways.  I don't condemn people for being stealth or out.  I admire those who are on "the frontlines" so to speak.  I'm still trying to decide of I want to be out or stealth, but I see myself going stealth.  It one person pointed out, I consider what I have to be a medical condition and I don't want to go around telling people about my medical condition.  I just want to live my life as a boring man.

Quote from: aleon515 on October 14, 2014, 10:26:26 PM
the most out of out people will not go go a store and say "I want plastic and I'm transgender".

--Jay

My day is officially made.

Quote from: Ayden on October 14, 2014, 11:43:40 PM
My day is officially made.

RE: plastic paper I'm transgender.
I don't know might be my favorite line. Glad you enjoy it.

--Jay

It's my life, not anyone else's.  I'll go stealth all I want and don't owe anyone anything.  Being out is my choice to make if so wished - which I don't.

I don't get why it's so important to some people what other trans* folk are or aren't doing with their own lives. 

As a very public trans*activist, at least in Australia, I made that decision because I was so known that I could never be stealth. I am very public on TV, radio, newspapers and I don't care. Yes I do get the hate mail, the stupid comments to the TV and radio stations but they don't affect me in anyway.

I do have a lot of protection both physical and emotional but also a strong will that is my self protection.

I would not expect or want anyone to out themselves, push themselves forward or definitely never to put themselves into any danger, either physical or emotional.

You need a thick skin to be an activist. It is not for everyone, nor should it be.

I'm stealth because that's what makes me comfortable, and isn't that what we're all aiming to do?  Lead a life that we're comfortable with and is true to ourselves?  Some people are able to embrace being trans in a way which means that they're comfortable with being open about who they are, and feel that it's part of them and their identity enough to feel the need to share it.  Other people have no option to be stealth if they are not consistently read as male/female for whatever reason, and in order for them to be seen as their gender they have to reveal that they're trans.  For me, it's a medical condition and thus only medical practitioners, and my partner needs to know.

I don't care either way about what other people do, as long as it suits them and they're respectful for my situation and preferences.  I wouldn't particularly like it if there were trans related scars shown on say, BBC news, where loads of cis people will see, because I don't see how that helps our community at all other than making them more recognisable, and it more difficult for me to be stealth once I have top surgery, but that's a separate topic, and something that isn't likely to happen.  I don't have a problem with people showing their scars on youtube/blogs for informative purposes, as how else are we supposed to make informed choices about our bodies and surgeons?  The vast majority of people will never go searching the internet in a way which would bring them across such information and pictures unless they need to.

In short, you owe no one to be out as trans, and you owe no one to be stealth either.

There are other ways to help the trans community, perhaps just as much as being out, and all without ever leaving your home.  As well as on here, I'm part of a couple of secret facebook groups specific to the UK, and through there we've helped numerous people work their way through the NHS and private pathways.  It's not easy to do that, especially if your GP isn't the most informed in the world, and I've have been left with no clue how to progress if it wasn't for them, so I want to give that help back.  Obviously they have to find the group first, which normally means someone who's already in it has to know them, but I'll leave that down to someone else.  I do have a tumblr and youtube channel as well, so there is a small chance of someone finding me, but if they do I'll tackle that when I come to it.  I don't tell anyone that I'm on tumblr or youtube in real life, and I don't have enough followers to think that there could be some type of overlap between those who know me IRL or online.  If I suddenly got popular perhaps I'd reconsider.

i'll never be out as transgender, only ever as me.
and to a whole lot of people, i am both the girl i once was, the person i am right now, and whatever i will be in the future.
but to others, i'll never be the girl i am no more, because they've never met her. when talking to them, why should i give too much information all the time?

though i wouldn't be devastated if i slipped up, and someone realized i'm trans. i'll still be me anyway.

and i'll support activism when it happens somewhere near me. but that's just me, not everybody else.

we're all different, and stealth or openness is also part of what a person is.
try talking about how shameful it is to be trans or gay or whatever. that wouldn't sound too good here. neither does this shame game some try to play regarding out or stealth.

I really don't get shaming of any kind.

I don't think I'll ever be stealth but that's just because of who I am as a person. I feel I am a transman and always will be however trans doesn't mean fake or less, it's simply a descriptor of my experience to me. I also enjoy talking about people's lives and experiences and like sharing mine, even the less happy ones (and being trans isn't one of the less happy ones actually). I think this helps me deal with the hard parts of my life as I can share it and it becomes less important. I also think I can help others this way and since it doens't bother me I want to do that.

But everyone is different, nobody should be forced to do anything they don't want. Especially if it could put them in danger (emotional of physical). Also I really don't believe in having to be 'out'. Do what feels good to you and leave others be too.

There's kind of a wide middle ground between no one knowing ever and cutting off all contact with anyone from before transition and being an out and proud activist. In any case, a person's life is their own. Whether one is stealth, an activist, out to a few people, whatever, we're still all people with the same medical condition.