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i don't know if i could ever see myself a real man

Started by thereishope, October 13, 2014, 11:20:18 PM

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thereishope

feeling 'damned if i do, damned if i don't' lately and it's driving me nuts.

i just don't see how i could ever really see myself as a man when i know that i was born with xx chromosomes (well, 99% sure), that i was born with all my female parts fully intact, that i have a uterus and breasts and curves and the whole nine yards.

if i go through transition, i feel like i'd only be changing my appearance and not even to the extent that i would want because i'll always know the truth: that i was born a girl, that i have scars from removing the breasts that naturally grew on me, that i changed the hormonal balance that was naturally in my body, that my dick is really a clit, that i still have a vagina, and presumably those xx chromosomes. i'll probably always be able to see the feminine things in my face and body too, the things i knew were there.

i feel like going through transition would mean changing from female to hermaphrodite more than it would mean changing from female to male, especially because i probably won't have bottom surgery.

i don't feel happy living as a woman either though. i feel like i will never be truly satisfied if i continue living female but i don't see how i could be much happier living as a trans male. i do feel that, in my core, my mind and personality and identity is male but i also feel like i can't deny the physical truth right in front of me every day. that i would feel like some kind of bionic man, not a real one. that i'd always be inadequate to cis men.

the truth is, no matter how much i wish it would have happened, i was not born male. maybe my mind is wired male, maybe something happened like a testosterone wash before i was born (who knows? i'll never find out for sure), but so what?

even if my mind is wired male, does that mean i -am- a male? i don't know, i honestly don't think so anymore. i may be partly male, mentally male, but i don't think i could ever say "i'm a man" and believe it's true. how do we know if we have men's brains anyway? not all men are the same. who's to say we are not just women with more masculinely wired brains? there are definitely some very masculine women in this world. what separates them from us? body dysphoria alone?

i feel sick thinking about it most of the time and don't know how to get past this. how do you guys really see yourselves as men, 100%, undeniably, confidently, when you know that you were born female and can never get your body to match a cis guy's body?

not trying to offend anyone here, i just am at my wit's end thinking about this crap and would like to hear your points of view because i see people posting all the time saying "i can't pretend to be a girl when i'm not" and "i've always been male" etc and i just can't wrap my head around it.
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AeroZeppelin92

Yes, I have always felt male. And yes, there were years spent of my life trying to suppress it to fit in. I also felt this despair of not being born bio before too. But...You have to learn to love yourself. No, you're never going to be the same as a bio guy. You'll have scars. So what. I know bio guys missing limbs that were naturally there before, but now they must wear prosthetics. Doesn't make them any less of a man or "bionic". People get organ transplants that weren't naturally theirs but it necessary for their survival.  You need to be stop being so self defeating. Your confusion is stemmed from your own self doubt.  Talk to someone, a professional.  I feel as though you should seek therapy. The only way you'll be able to wrap your head around it is for you to figure it out for yourself. I don't mean any of this in a mean way. Nobody's answer is going to be the answer you are looking for that is going to straighten it out or clear things up for you. That's something everyone has to do for themselves. You may not have been born biologically male. But hey, you're alive, right? And lucky enough to be in a time that has the science allowing you to transition.
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Liam Erik

What male is, in the first place, is a rather bendy concept.  You can't say that any particular thing qualifies or disqualifies another person from maleness, except that person's say so.  The whole gender thing is nuanced and individualized.  It's not like a specific token that you can carry one of, or the other, even though lots of people's traditions tell them it is. 

-- You're allowed to own your own identity. --

To be perhaps too frank, there ain't no point in giving a sh** about cis guys.  If it makes you happier to adjust your presentation or your body for yourself, that's why you do it.  How do you get on with life as somebody who's different?  Or how do you get on with life at all?  Well... you just do.  Plan B sucks, and there's no plan C.

Anyway, I find that the contents of a person's trousers have little influence on daily life.  The configuration of one's chromosomes has absolutely none.  You wouldn't even know they were there, except you read about them. 

I hope I don't sound patronizing or like I'm trying to give harsh truth ::) I don't mean to.  This is my philosophy of it.  Like AeroZeppelin says, your issue gets into some deep personal stuff not the kind of thing that other people can really figure out for you, but a professional might help get you there.
"Never give in! Never give in! Never, never, never -- in nothing great or small, large or petty. Never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense."
-Sir Winston Churchill
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NathanielM

I've not always felt like a guy. I do now and I think wether or not us transguys feel like *Realtm* guys has to do very little with our physical appearances. Yes it probably gets easier when you start looking the part, but transition is mostly in your head.

When I started I felt like you, I would never be a proper guy because well, I wasn't. For me finding support with other guys in my group helped me out, maybe an option for you? I realized that I didn't need to be a *REALtm* guy, but I was simply a guy. Don't ask me how I got there but it's a process, therapy helped, friends and support helped, looking at my own thoughts and the way I looked at myself helped. What didn't help was turning in circles about it and obsessing over it :) Although that didn't stop me from doing it anyway :p

The thing is, I'm not transitioning to be The Male. I'm transitioning so I can be happier, so I can feel better about my body, about the words people use to describe me... When I started the process, I didn't kow for sure if I'd ever be a guy. I knew I wasn't a woman and I knew I wanted certain things to change. Along the way I started knowing more, and at a certain point I suddenly realized I felt like a guy now. Even though physically things haven't changed, the way I think about myself has. And that's what for me transition is mostly about.

I agree with the therapy suggestion, talking this over with someone who knows what their talking about really helps with getting out of your own head. And I'm sorry with the big post, I got a little carried away :p
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Cindy

If a girl can put forward a comment.

I think these thoughts are common no matter what direction we are going. I have been privileged to meet many transmen and my goddess they 'pass' really well after being on T for a while. So don't despair .

Chromosomes - well I went into this and found over 300 cases of natal females who had given birth and their karyotype was XY, there is also a number of XX natal males. So chromosomes are not an end rule. We have 300 genes that determine gender, mutations in a few of these render us trans*. We are not freaks we are normal men and women who had a bad toss of the gender dice.

Getting your head around this can be really hard and a good gender therapist is a god send. Can we ever be the men and women that we identify as? Of course we can and we do. Never give in to doubt. We are normal and special human beings who demand and deserve respect - and we shall have it. Every man and woman of us.
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stephaniec

well, from the other side of the tracks, I'll just say this is where I belong, I feel so real as a female its a much better social fit
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Kreuzfidel

I'm a man and have always known I was a man.  By wrapping yourself up in the trap of defining sex by chromosomes alone, you're denying the genders of intersex people who were born with a variety of chromosomes.

By that reckoning, are people with Down Syndrome actually human?  They have that extra chromosome, ya know.  All this sounds a lot like Pinocchio thinking he'll never be a "real boy". 

I can't change your mind, but it's something you need to learn for yourself - being a man is about more than just the chromosomes in your blood or whether or not you have a "real dick". 
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AdamMLP

I am male, because despite what my physical form happens to show that the moment, I know what I am, and what makes me feel comfortable on this earth.  I am able to function as male, and I no longer get constant, incessant irritation of being read as female.  I still have dysphoria surrounding my body, and that's something which I can only hope will lessen in the future when I finally have testosterone flowing in my body like I should always have had.  I've disassociated from my body a fair bit these days which makes it easier to deal with, and to stop thinking about the wrongness of it all.

I didn't know how much coming out and living as male would improve my life until I did.  I didn't think it would change anything to a large extent as I'd been presenting as male for over three years prior to my coming out, the only difference to my life then and now was that I had a female name, and had the female box ticked on paperwork.  Then I came out, and no longer had to hear that name or pronouns, no longer had to share a room with girls, no longer had to walk through that door with a stereotypical silhouette of a woman to go to the toilet.  I no longer had the low simmering of anger all day long, I could just live and be free.

When I first realised that I was trans I found it very hard to come to terms with the future of my genitals.  I hated thinking of testosterone making it into something not quite here nor there.  Since then I've seen some recent good metoidioplasty results, and feel more confident in that it will one day be like it should always have been.  And I no longer think of testosterone as making it into something inbetween, but rather wishing for testosterone sooner so it begins that growth, and I'm looking forward to being grateful for very millimeter that I get.  It was one of the hardest things for me to get my head around for me though in the beginning.  I come a long way in my thoughts about it since.

As for chromosomes, you don't even know for a fact that you are XX.  A lot of people have atypical chromosomes without ever realising unless they have chromosome screening.  Do they really make that much difference to your daily life?

All that said though, I find, like quite a few people from what I've read in discussions about it before, that the word "man" doesn't always fit as well as other near synonyms, guy, bloke, boy, etc.  My explanation for this is that I don't look in the mirror and see a man, either I see something which makes dysphoric, or something which resembles a boy.  I have not had a male puberty yet, and that's one of the first precursors to being a man in my view, and there's much more of that to being a man in my opinion.  Like Rudyard Kipling's "If—" I think there's more to being a Man than just being an adult male.  Obviously they're men, but they're not Men, if that makes sense, and I can't see myself as that capitalised version of the word, which I think of when I say "I'm a Man."

Part of my issue with considering myself a Man is also I think to do with never being referred to it as well.  It was sort of a bit of a turning moment for me when we were discussing our childhoods, schools, and work, and how they've all become a bit namby-pamby, and he said, "But that's ridiculous, you're eighteen, you're a man."  I no longer speak with my father so having a guy around the same age as him saying that to me brought up a few emotions.

Maleness is a complicated thing, but it's something you need to work out for yourself if you fit into that category, and then what you want to with that information when you work it out.  One thing to remember is that, if you're not sure if you'll feel any better in a male role is that you'll never know unless you try it.  Will it make you feel any worse than you do now to transition?
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thereishope

thanks for the responses

first of all, i never said that it was just my chromosomes that made me "female". that's just one of many things but 99% chances that i was born with xx, which dictated how my body developed, so it's not like chromosomes have no importance whatsoever. they are, in almost all cases, the code that makes our bodies develop one way or another.

i don't know about all of you but most of us are not intersex. afaik, i'm not, there is no reason to think i am either. i was born with a vagina, i went through puberty and developed boobs and curves, i get my period regularly, etc. the chances of me being intersex are extremely slim.

you all say there's so much to being male besides our bodies but i'd like to hear what you think it means then

what makes you so certain that you were born with a male brain? what does being born with a male brain even mean, when there are so many different types of men in this world? that's my question here.

i could go down my own list and say well, i always had male interests, male friends growing up, never felt like i fit in with girls, always wrote stories from a male perspective, always wished i had been born male, see myself as male during sex, blah blah blah...but how can i say any of that or even the sum total -makes me male instead of a masculine female-? 

and even if i was born with a male brain, i still don't see how i could ever say "i -am- male" because my body isn't and really never will be no matter what i do.

as far as gender therapy, oh hell yeah, i need it badly lol and am going to pursue it but i am strapped for cash at the moment, haven't come out to my family, etc so i can't get into it just yet. until then i wish i could find at least some peace of mind about this though because i am obsessing over it in an unhealthy way



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Brandon

I have always seen my self as male and have known regardless so do most of my peers whole school at that, Someone needs to atudy human sexuality everyone has a vagina in the womb your clitoris is actually a tiny underdeveloped penis or the inverse of that would be that a penis is an oversized clit, there are lots of things that makes a man a man. Being a provider, getting out here and working, taking care of buisness, respect, beingthe bigger man just n certain situations, as far as I am concerned and others I am jist as much of a real man as others if not more, come on know having enough balls to come out in highschool takes serious balls. You can't let your physical appearence define you, you know who you are. And actually if you wanna get technical being trans is kind of an intersexed condition you don't have to come out with mixed parts just to be trans there is a mismatch between the brain and the body there is a difference between a man and womans brain. Honestly since I work out and you couldn't tell by looking at my body that I am a trans male I just say I have a atypical male body or ambigous. Not much to it.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Scientist have done studies on trans men and women, trust me there is a huge difference between how men and women think thats one of the big reasons why even my male friends think its difficult to look at me as female, Most girls say I am a peverted little boy in a joking manner and they like it but thats just how us guys are especially in highschool, your body is not that different from a male body. You are capable of getting erections and everything else.

keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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Brandon

Also there is a big ass difference between knowing your male and just wanting to do more masculine things which is the main reason I have never had a lesbian attracted to me because pre T or not they know I am a dude, you ask my friends what I am they will say he's a dude.
keep working hard and you can get anything you want.    -Aaliyah
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mrs izzy

Quote from: Brandon on October 14, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
Also there is a big ass difference between knowing your male and just wanting to do more masculine things which is the main reason I have never had a lesbian attracted to me because pre T or not they know I am a dude, you ask my friends what I am they will say he's a dude.

Brandon watch the nasty words/language that is filtering into your posts please. You know the drill.
Mrs. Izzy
Trans lifeline US 877-565-8860 CAD 877-330-6366 http://www.translifeline.org/
"Those who matter will never judge, this is my given path to walk in life and you have no right to judge"

I used to be grounded but now I can fly.
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Sephirah

Quote from: thereishope on October 14, 2014, 04:42:14 PM
you all say there's so much to being male besides our bodies but i'd like to hear what you think it means then

Just to chime in here. What I'm going to say will make no sense, and I'm sorry for that, but for me it means a feeling you get from people. Nothing to do with how one looks or acts. Something more. Maybe self-actualisation, self confidence, a projection of comfort with how one feels. It's something... inexplicable. Maybe subconscious methods of expression picked up on at a deeper level, maybe something else. I am sure a bunch of people will try to put a word to it, and there's probably an -ism or an -ology or an -ality for it, but what I can say with a large degree of certainly is that the feeling I get from a lot of guys here is very similar to the one I get from a lot of cis guys I meet.

It is more than your bodies. It's a part of the psyche. The fundamental essence of what makes you... you. Call it consciousness, or any other word you'd care to choose. I know there's sometimes a lot of emphasis placed on what one does, how one looks, how one dresses or acts... all symptoms. The underlying cause is what the emphasis should be on. Maybe it's just plain sentience, who knows. Self-determinism. And once you determine yourself it flows through you, and into everything you do, say, feel, think and accomplish. It's the image of yourself you see behind your eyes when you sleep, when you dream, when you wake and try to look beyond your reflection. The underlying certainty of who you are.

And, well, I see people have that here in spades. A certainty without needing constant affirmation. I meet and talk to guys here that during which conversations it wouldn't even occur to me that this was a trans related forum because they just are who they are, have found acceptance in that, and their lives reflect themselves. However they choose to live it. However far they are in their transitions, and even if they haven't started. For those guys, being a man just means being themselves.

I know that was as clear as mud, and I'm sorry, but I don't know any other way to explain it.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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aleon515

I don't like the term "real man" as I don't even know what that means. I'm real in that this is who I am in my heart but I do accept the feminine parts of myself, actually embrace them. But you'll hear from me if you misgender me. It's this confusing? You bet. :)

--Jay
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LittleBoyBear

This little nugget of self-doubt keeps creeping in for me, too. I just keep trying to remember how I felt accepting the idea of being trans and being able to do something about it. For a fleeting moment, it felt like everything was going to be okay. I need to hold onto that, I think...








Fear is the mind killer
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NathanielM

For me the difference between male and masculine female was simple: I felt unconfortable and unhappy as a masculine female and good as a male. Done.

Well I wish. I had all these doubts too, I first came out as 'not a girl' when I was sixteen after years of doubting and feeling bad. 3 years later I decided to do something, 3 years spent full of  what you are thinking. How do I know? That was my main question, how can I be sure of what I am.

And this is probably not what you want to hear but no amount of hearing other people tell you you're a dude or telling you why this or this is or isn't important to being a guy will help you with it. Think on it, stop thinking on it, start over again. We'll be here and I know you'll figure it out when you're ready. (Only to have secret doubts pop up again 6 months later :p but you'll be ready to deal with them then). 
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Taka

the brain is a part of the body. actually even its control center.
if the brain is male, then the body is too. genitals don't matter at all. the control center is always right.
as long as it isn't creating weird illusions due to mental illness.

hormones control emotions and pheromones.
if testosterone matches your brain and makes you smell like a man, how could female genitals make you a woman?
that's just like saying a man can become a woman with srs. (a "real" cis man, that is.)

pheromones control sexual behavior a whole lot more than our brains let us know.
it that kind of sexy scent that doesn't have a proper name. it's just really sexy. turns you on if you close your eyes to the person's appearance.
very strictly straight or gay people will have problems seeing someone (in a sexual attraction related way) as a man or woman, if their sex hormones are opposite of that. it just smells wrong, in an undefinable but still real way.


another thing, to me a "real man" is a concept. i know many women who are manlier than the average man. only thing that's between them and a "real man" is their gender identity. cis men also have a lot to live up to in order to be seen as real men. it's not an easy title to obtain, and not something you should worry too much about. just be the guy you are, that's all you need to do or be. (most men can't be rambo, so why try too hard.)
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adrian

Hi there,

I just wanted to recommend Sam Killerman's book on gender. it's a free e-book available from his page itspronouncedmetrosexual.com.

I think the book does a good job at unpacking "gender", and what it means to be male or female, cis or trans*. The book doesn't have all the answers, and it sometimes oversimplifies things (consciously though), but it's a good place to start exploring.

Personally I think that there's no such thing as a "real man" - or rather that masculinity is real in all shapes and sizes. I know society wants to make us believe otherwise, but I'm not buying it!
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Taka

i'm not buying it either, but mostly because it's not for sale.
even the free versions are flawed, if tested against society's standards.
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