This thread doesn't have much point, honestly.. But almost 2 weeks ago I was texting my sister, and she said something that has been bothering me ever since. 

This is what she said, word for word and without context:

QuoteThere's even a girl like you that wants to be a guy. We address her as a guy just as she wants. Dresses like a guy. We call her by her male name. She binds her chest so you can't see her boobs.

To clear things up a bit: I've "come out" a few times, but the paranoia and frustration was always too much for me, and the one time I did ask my family (parents and my sister) to use male pronouns and a "boys name" I picked out, I ran back into the closet that same day because I was getting frustrated with having to correct them, and them never once getting my name+pronouns right (I was just being impatient, I know, but it still stung more when they called me "she" then than it did prior to my request). So she knows I'm trans, but still calls me her "sister", by my "girl" name, and uses female pronouns because of the last time I came out I told her and my parents "nevermind!".

That said, all that misgendering made me worry, plus made me all the more afraid to "try again". I'm now paranoid that even when someone gets my name and pronouns right, that they only use them when I'm present. That they don't really see me as a man. That to others I'm just, to quote my sister: "a girl that wants to be a guy".

Sure, being gendered correctly is better than being told "No. You're a woman and you'll always be a woman. I refuse to call you He".. But it's still extremely important to me to be taken seriously.


Does anyone else worry about these things?  That even when someone uses the correct pronouns+name, they aren't really seeing you as your gender? I kind of feel like I'm alone in this and that I'm just being overly sensitive.. idk.

Yes, I worry about this especially since when I suspect it's happening, I turn out to be right.
A gay guy I knew pretended to be a trans ally, calls me Victor, and uses the right pronouns. Then he started accusing the trans group of things we're innocent of and claimed that trans men weren't real men.
One of my friends met me as Victor and uses male pronouns. He also said a few times while we hung out that he and his wife have trouble remembering I'm a guy, that he calls me "dude" and "bro" so much to remind himself, and then compared me knowing what it's like to be a guy to him knowing what it's like to be something he's not.
I'm worried about my boyfriend doing the same thing because he met me as Victor, but has slipped up and called me "she," slipped up and called trans women "trans men," and the other day told me that he doesn't think he has to gender people correctly unless they're in the process of transitioning or have transitioned. So yeah. The first he says were just slips, but I wonder if they reveal what he actually thinks.

Quote from: Edge on October 20, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
the other day told me that he doesn't think he has to gender people correctly unless they're in the process of transitioning or have transitioned. So yeah. The first he says were just slips, but I wonder if they reveal what he actually thinks.

I think that last bit in particular is very revealing about what he thinks. 

When I address someone to identify me as male, I do want them to take me seriously, not just to my face but also when I'm not there.
I have a friend who I've come out to as a transman, but she doesn't really make me feel like she's making much of an effort to support me.
(I'm pretty sure when she refers to me when I'm not there, she uses female pronouns, but that's just because of her lack of understanding
in trans issues and also her personal transphobia that I do feel from her at times.)
I'm beginning to not care anymore, though. I'm working my way up to coming out to everyone (especially at school), because I just can't take being misgendered anymore. It's getting really tiring. 
And don't feel so bad, I'm overly sensitive, too, but I'm working on it.
I hope everything turns out well for you (and me). Us men gotta stay strong.

Quote from: Mitchell the Deathbell on October 20, 2014, 10:43:48 PM
When I address someone to identify me as male, I do want them to take me seriously, not just to my face but also when I'm not there.
I have a friend who I've come out to as a transman, but she doesn't really make me feel like she's making much of an effort to support me.
(I'm pretty sure when she refers to me when I'm not there, she uses female pronouns, but that's just because of her lack of understanding
in trans issues and also her personal transphobia that I do feel from her at times.)
I'm beginning to not care anymore, though. I'm working my way up to coming out to everyone (especially at school), because I just can't take being misgendered anymore. It's getting really tiring. 
And don't feel so bad, I'm overly sensitive, too, but I'm working on it.
I hope everything turns out well for you (and me). Us men gotta stay strong.

I hope I reach that point soon, haha.  Leaving the closet only to go back in again is becoming really exhausting.

Quote from: Edge on October 20, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
Yes, I worry about this especially since when I suspect it's happening, I turn out to be right.
A gay guy I knew pretended to be a trans ally, calls me Victor, and uses the right pronouns. Then he started accusing the trans group of things we're innocent of and claimed that trans men weren't real men.
One of my friends met me as Victor and uses male pronouns. He also said a few times while we hung out that he and his wife have trouble remembering I'm a guy, that he calls me "dude" and "bro" so much to remind himself, and then compared me knowing what it's like to be a guy to him knowing what it's like to be something he's not.
I'm worried about my boyfriend doing the same thing because he met me as Victor, but has slipped up and called me "she," slipped up and called trans women "trans men," and the other day told me that he doesn't think he has to gender people correctly unless they're in the process of transitioning or have transitioned. So yeah. The first he says were just slips, but I wonder if they reveal what he actually thinks.

Ouch.  I hope he's just ignorant, but I dunno. You would think that if you're dating someone who is trans - and knew beforehand - you wouldn't have trouble with misgendering that person. Not to mention his beliefs on using the right pronouns are worrisome..

As for your experience with the gay man.. experiences like those are why I'm afraid that even if someone is my friend, if I get on their bad side their "true colors" will show and they reveal that they've never taken me seriously to begin with.

Yeah, I'm really paranoid about this.  Then again, I'm paranoid that my friends and family are humouring me about a lot of other things.  I've overheard my housemates refer to me with female pronouns more than once, and it's been behind my back.  Thin walls and such.

I know that it's going to take a while for everyone to get used to referring to me as 'he'.  I'm hoping that after my surgery it'll be easier.  Until then, I'm going to be like Mandark from Dexter's Laboratory; whenever people would call him Susan, he'd bitterly mutter "Mandark".  Only I'll try not to be too bitter.

My old therapist humored me. That's why he's my OLD therapist.

"she wants to be a man"

I don't think your sister understands as well as she thinks she does. You (and that other transguy) aren't a woman who wants to be a man, you are a man NOW. You are a man with an unfortunate condition in which female hormones course through your body and make you appear (and maybe behave) typically female. She needs to hear that.

I'm finding that it's common for FTMs to not be taken seriously. In a "oh how cute, you want to be a man" or "silly girl, you're too feminine" kind of way. Is my perception just skewed, or is this really a thing, guys?

Quote from: Amadeus on October 20, 2014, 11:43:21 PM
Yeah, I'm really paranoid about this.  Then again, I'm paranoid that my friends and family are humouring me about a lot of other things.  I've overheard my housemates refer to me with female pronouns more than once, and it's been behind my back.  Thin walls and such.

I know that it's going to take a while for everyone to get used to referring to me as 'he'.  I'm hoping that after my surgery it'll be easier.  Until then, I'm going to be like Mandark from Dexter's Laboratory; whenever people would call him Susan, he'd bitterly mutter "Mandark".  Only I'll try not to be too bitter.

Yeah. I understand that it would take time to adjust if you've known someone before they came out/started transitioning (sometimes I forget that my sisters last name has changed even though she's been married for like 2 years haha), but strangers or people who met me as a guy? That'll really sting. (I'd probably start obsessing over "passing" and try to force myself to be more masculine just so I won't get misgendered so often.. or just go back into the closet for the 100th time)

And aww, Dexter's Lab.. I haven't seen that show in ages.  (but maybe that's because I don't watch TV anymore hahaha)

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on October 20, 2014, 11:48:33 PM
My old therapist humored me. That's why he's my OLD therapist.

"she wants to be a man"

I don't think your sister understands as well as she thinks she does. You (and that other transguy) aren't a woman who wants to be a man, you are a man NOW. You are a man with an unfortunate condition in which female hormones course through your body and make you appear (and maybe behave) typically female. She needs to hear that.

I'm finding that it's common for FTMs to not be taken seriously. In a "oh how cute, you want to be a man" or "silly girl, you're too feminine" kind of way. Is my perception just skewed, or is this really a thing, guys?

Yeah.  I wanted to say "Well you obviously aren't taking him seriously if you refer to him as a woman when he's not around", but I went easy on her and said "Well you obviously have some work to do, pronoun wise. He's a he, silly."

And it does seem to be common, from my experience.. My Dad - despite being "willing" to use male pronouns and my chosen name that one time because "he wants me to be happy" (even though he never got it right) - admitted to thinking that I'm just confused because I was born premature, because he "heard somewhere that babies who were born premature can have identity problems".

That said, trans women aren't taken seriously, either (they seem to get more violent responses), but yeah. Trans guys seem to get more patronizing responses.

Quote from: littleredrobinhood on October 21, 2014, 12:00:30 AM
That said, trans women aren't taken seriously, either (they seem to get more violent responses), but yeah. Trans guys seem to get more patronizing responses.

Yeah, that was what I meant to say. Transwomen seem to get more hostile responses, transmen seem to get more patronizing ones.

I think requesting pronoun changes before physical changes are apparent, make it much more difficult for others. I preferred to let it be odd and uncomfortable for them to not use the correct ones and then change (mostly) on their own.  It is difficult to live through that period but, it is shorter for us than for transwomen.

I've sort of accepted that people will think of you whatever they want and the only way to maybe change that is to just be yourself and let them see that (doesn't always work). I expect people to treat me respectfully by at least trying to get my pronouns and name right. I'll correct people on that.

I kind of think: you can think what you want but if you don't respect my identity in your thoughts keep it there. As long as people use the right pronouns and don't say things like 'you want to be a man' in my presence, I'm okay. I'll react to people saying disrespectfull things (about me and others) but I know that often on their inside they will stick to their ignorance. It's not my job to change that (although I will try by being me) and it doesn't reflect on my identity or it's validity.

It's not always easy to think this way though, sometimes it does get me down. But I try.

Quote from: NathanielM on October 21, 2014, 01:24:51 AM
I've sort of accepted that people will think of you whatever they want and the only way to maybe change that is to just be yourself and let them see that (doesn't always work). I expect people to treat me respectfully by at least trying to get my pronouns and name right. I'll correct people on that.

I kind of think: you can think what you want but if you don't respect my identity in your thoughts keep it there. As long as people use the right pronouns and don't say things like 'you want to be a man' in my presence, I'm okay. I'll react to people saying disrespectfull things (about me and others) but I know that often on their inside they will stick to their ignorance. It's not my job to change that (although I will try by being me) and it doesn't reflect on my identity or it's validity.

It's not always easy to think this way though, sometimes it does get me down. But I try.

Unfortunately, "myself" doesn't seem the slightest bit "male" due to how feminine I speak/act, and the things I like. So being myself just results in being gendered as female.  (hopefully the new haircut I'll be getting will help with that? lol)

I do think I would be bothered by it less if they kept it to themselves, but the problem isn't so much keeping their opinion from me as it is them keeping their opinion from other people.

Like, if they said it to my face, I could correct them. But if they spread lies and tell other people I'm "a girl that wants to be a guy", as well using females pronouns when I'm not present? I can't do anything to prevent that, and it's really annoying because when people spread that, it just means more and more people will think I'm "confused", and the more correcting I'll have to do.

Quote from: LordKAT on October 21, 2014, 01:01:09 AM
I think requesting pronoun changes before physical changes are apparent, make it much more difficult for others. I preferred to let it be odd and uncomfortable for them to not use the correct ones and then change (mostly) on their own.  It is difficult to live through that period but, it is shorter for us than for transwomen.

I would agree with the above.  If they aren't "seeing it" with physical changes or at minimum full male garb and hair, it can be harder for people.  We are raised to read social cues as male or female and it is hard to move out of that.  Even well meaning people have a hard time seeing us as our new gender even WITH physical changes (those who have known us for a long time, especially).  It is hard to make the "switch over".  It takes time.  Try to not think about what they are thinking and just be pleased when they get the name/pronouns right.  I think it is about people's "intent".  Are they doing it on purpose, or is it internalized transphobia at work that our society made sure we absorbed?  It is hard to change our way of thinking about what we thought we knew (sex=gender).  Remember that people haven't even considered that one's genitals does not define who they are.  It takes time for people to wrap their mind around it and see it differently.

I correct people when they screw up gendering me or anyone else (cis or trans) in my presence. And, of course I want to be taken seriously. But it's impossible to control other people's thoughts or private conversations, and not reasonable to try. This is a big part of why I avoid disclosure as much as feasible. People who've only ever known me as me don't screw it up and I can be sure they aren't "humoring" me, since strangers gender me correctly.

On one side of things, the respectful thing to do is make an effort to gender someone correctly regardless of appearance, once they've clearly stated their gender.
On the other side, social cues for gendering are deeply ingrained and it's simply not realistic to expect most people to quickly and always get someone's gender right when every social cue available is misleading them. At the local trans support group, even other trans people slip up gendering someone when they are not doing anything at all to "present"/socially cue their actual gender. Trans women will sometimes accidentally "he" another trans women when she's sporting a beard and masculine clothing. On the other hand I've never seen a trans woman at the group get misgendered if she's shaven and wearing a dress, regardless of whether she's on HRT yet, has a deep voice, etc. Social cues make a difference.

Gendering is a form of social communication. Communication is not one-way.

Now, it says more about the person doing the mis-gendering, when someone is clearly presenting their gender. It says they're ignorant. If it's not willful ignorance, polite and calm education can help. If it is willful ignorance, you can certainly try to educate them anyway, but sometimes it's best to avoid someone.

I've been on T for a year now. I was presenting as male for a year before that (complete with short hair that I hated). I still get misgendered all the time and the people who I suspect are humoring (and who I am mad at for it) met me as me.

I've had a lot of people humour me only to find out that they were talking about me behind my back. Ultimately I cut all these people out of my life, most of them ended up feeling guilty after but I didn't care.

Quote from: Edge on October 21, 2014, 01:10:51 PM
I've been on T for a year now. I was presenting as male for a year before that (complete with short hair that I hated). I still get misgendered all the time and the people who I suspect are humoring (and who I am mad at for it) met me as me.

Sorry you are experiencing that. It sounds like you're already doing what you can. IMO within a year or two, barring some kind of memory loss issues that is a generous time frame for someone to get it in their head. Especially if they had no pre-transition preconceptions. If they're still screwing it up with no hint of progress, that's on them.

I definitely get this sense as well.

--Jay

Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on October 21, 2014, 12:21:16 AM
Yeah, that was what I meant to say. Transwomen seem to get more hostile responses, transmen seem to get more patronizing ones.

I definitely agree on the hostility and patronising toward trans people.  It's like both genders are exclusive clubs, but instead of paying a fee to get in, your name just gets put down at birth.  You can't switch clubs.  If you're in the Girls' Club and want to join the Boys' Club, they laugh at you.  You're inferior, even though you look, sound, and behave like a man.  You may even be stronger than a lot of the other boys.  You could prove your masculinity for days on end and they'd still pat you on the head and say, "That's cute.  Now run along and make me a sandwich."

But good God, to be a transwoman?  I imagine blokes would be thinking, "He wants to join the Girls' Club?  They're inferior!  They're weak and stupid and, and...they're girls, for ->-bleeped-<-'s sake!  No one wants to be a girl!  Frank used to be so macho, so manly.  Wait a minute...if he's so butch and yet he still wants to be a woman...what does that say about me?  Could I be just as prone to this...queerness?  Sh*t.  This is threatening my masculinity.  If my masculinity is threatened, then another male will find a way to dominate me.  If he dominates me, then I could lose my mating privileges.  This will not do.  I must assert myself by beating the living sh*t out of Frank.  Yes.  That will make me look like a hard-case mofo!"

Whereas with women, it's, "You're just a pervert who wants to spy on women, ogle our bodies, then rape us in our bathrooms.  Then you'll go brag to the boys about what you did and set back the feminist movement by another twenty years.  Yeah.  No.  ->-bleeped-<- you!  Get out of our bathroom, you freak!"  *mace*

Ugh.  I'm so glad I live in this neighbourhood.  No one here gives two sh*ts about gender.  It's all about the rainbows and unicorns.

I think one way at looking at others reactions to you is this. First off think about this did you magically think yourself as trans or did that take you some time to figure out? My guess is the later. Therefor for one who doesn't understand it at all it might take them longer until of course you are passing physically and perhaps your mannerisms as well. For someone who is close friend/family they also may have a huge resistance to change and or fear of it may have to bear with them to internalize they change you are putting at them. 

That being said some you will never convince. Yes it would be great if we could just throw a switch here and there but fact is we have to live with at least for a while a switch that is stuck in the middle until that switch is on the light side rather then the dark side. Patience and understanding on both parties is the key unfortunately some lack one or both.

As I have not publicly presented my self as target gender easy for me to say but I can also see the point of the matter. It wont or isn't easy but in time if they really are a friend or family member that actually cares about you they will adapt as you adapt.

May the light side flip sooner then later:) Don't forget to lightly oil the switch heavy oiling will may cause problems:)