The 30-year fight for a federal gay civil rights law may fail because activists insist on including rights for transgendered people too. Has gay inclusiveness gone too far too fast?

By John Aravosis
Salon

"I have a sense that over the past decade the trans revolution was imposed on the gay community from outside, or at least above, and thus it never stuck with a large number of gays who weren't running national organizations, weren't activists, or weren't living in liberal gay enclaves like San Francisco and New York. Sure, many of the rest of us accepted de facto that transgendered people were members of the community, but only because our leaders kept telling us it was so. A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman."

Karen

Karen,
   Sounds like John Aravosis is not a caring person. I wonder why the L got included into the GB? Lesbians don't have anything in common with a gay person, only that they are both homosexuals. They don't have a penis and they really don't want one. Why would a gay person want anything to do with a Lesbian. To me, this logic is the same as his with GLB and the trans community. Or, maybe I just don't understand. Hmmm
Sheila

He is one of the redactors who wish to forget that Stonewall was started by the drag queens who were outside on the sidewalk because they were not allowed to drink inside the gay bar.  Gay discrimination against trans people is older than the gay rights movement that we started.

You both made good points.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 08, 2007, 11:40:16 AM
He is one of the redactors who wish to forget that Stonewall was started by the drag queens who were outside on the sidewalk because they were not allowed to drink inside the gay bar.  Gay discrimination against trans people is older than the gay rights movement that we started.

Yea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.

I get the practical, political reasons for us all being lumped together. I do. But as a straight woman, I have nothing in common with the GLB community aside from as Jennifer Boylan once put it, "We tend to get beat up by the same people."

Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.

~Kate~

Our community needs to educate the 40% of the population that are already on our side and the 20% that can be swayed, given the right arguments, pronto.  We must not waste any effort on the 40% that will never, ever believe us to be anything but sinful, subhuman abominations.  We just have to learn to contain that segment and live with it.

The recent Oprah show had Oprah grooving on the statement by the trans-boy that he thought he was lesbian at first, and Oprah tried to tie TG to homosexuality.  I hope that Dr. Bowers' statements undid some of that damage.  Larry King reacted to a trans-woman who professed to like other women, and zoomed in on the 'gay' angle.

I'd like to see a TV show that compares trans-women with drag queens.  But the DQs are in street clothes the whole time (or better yet, respectable business suits like Barney Frank wears!), and we only see their characters via video segments and/or photos they hold up.  Maybe then a few (more) audience members will have that AHA! moment.

It will take a LOT of education.

Karen

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
Yea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.

I get the practical, political reasons for us all being lumped together. I do. But as a straight woman, I have nothing in common with the GLB community aside from as Jennifer Boylan once put it, "We tend to get beat up by the same people."

Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.

In 1969, when Stonewall happened, there were very few opportunities for transsexuals to find or get treatment, so there's the possibility that some of the drag queens at the protests were actually TS.

At least some of the reasons we're all getting beat up is because of perceived gender transgressions, not who we're sleeping with.

I don't believe that whether or not T is included with GLB has much effect on the average person to understand who we are, they tend to confuse sexual orientation and gender identity regardless.

zythyra

Quote from: y2gender on October 08, 2007, 12:45:59 PM
they tend to confuse sexual orientation and gender identity regardless.

They do, but in fairness it DOES make sense at first blush. I don't really blame them for it or think they're trying to be mean. From the point of view of "normal" people, men like women and women like men, so if you like men... then you must really want to be a woman. And if you really, REALLY like men, you'll actually finish the job and have the surgery.

After the "So you're gay?" question, the number two question I'm always asked is, "So have you had the surgery yet?" Because of course the entire goal here is to have sex with men. I've tried to explain that SRS is only part of the process, that the social transition is much more important to me... but their eyes just glaze over. They don't get it.

Then you add in drag queens dressing up to parody women, and it just further proves that gay men really want to BE women, if given a choice.

It's naive, but there IS a logic to it all.

So now along comes ENDA which is getting national attention, lumping us all together as one "community," AND now getting attention because of the fight to KEEP us lumped together as sharing the same goals, and... that myth gets reinforced. That's the "education" I fear the public is getting.

~Kate~

Alright.  Some education is in order here.

Today when people talk about drag queens they mean flamboyant stage performers.  In 1969 the term "drag queen" meant exactly the following: "a crossdressing homosexual."  This is the exact opposite in sexual orientation to the term "hetersexual crossdresser."  The majority of drag queens at that time in history were what are today called "primary transsexuals."  That means people who try out the gay label for awhile, find it doesn't fit, and transition to their true gender at a fairly young age.  Those "drag queens" at Stonewall were very much us.

Rather shameful. The T have fought for an inclusive ENDA as much as GLB have. This author doesn't really seem to acknowledge we have fought alongside them. It's just horrid to want to take their efforts and leave them behind.

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM
...And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.

~Kate~

My favorite hero is SuperGay.  I hear that in a couple of issues, he's going to be seduced by his arch  enemy, the evil Naughty Nympho.

Quote from: Karen on October 08, 2007, 12:30:34 PM
Our community needs to educate the 40% of the population that are already on our side and the 20% that can be swayed, given the right arguments, pronto.  We must not waste any effort on the 40% that will never, ever believe us to be anything but sinful, subhuman abominations.  We just have to learn to contain that segment and live with it.

Karen

I wonder if I can convince them that I'm Uber-human?  Hmmmmmm

   I'd also like a chance to wear a lab coat and cut up some bigoted brains to find out what is happening in there.  And I don't necessarily mean in the lab, or even while the subject is dead   

Please help fund my research,


Rebis

Quote from: Jaynatopia on October 08, 2007, 03:45:11 PM
Rather shameful. The T have fought for an inclusive ENDA as much as GLB have. This author doesn't really seem to acknowledge we have fought alongside them. It's just horrid to want to take their efforts and leave them behind.

The author doesn't want us to fight alongside him.  He is ashamed to be seen in the same light with us.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 08, 2007, 03:57:57 PM

Quote from: Jaynatopia on October 08, 2007, 03:45:11 PM
Rather shameful. The T have fought for an inclusive ENDA as much as GLB have. This author doesn't really seem to acknowledge we have fought alongside them. It's just horrid to want to take their efforts and leave them behind.

The author doesn't want us to fight alongside him.  He is ashamed to be seen in the same light with us.

I have found similar attitudes out there among some Gay people.  Lesbians too (and sometimes T people).  There are some who are really disgusted, horrified, and ashamed to be associated with "flamboyant" or "out" people.  It's another form of prejudice.  Ghettoizing people they don't understand or accept.
   I've been fortunate because the L & G's I've met have been accepting of anyone no matter who they are or how they express.

   I thought we were all humans and not chickens.  I don't want to be a part of a pecking order.

Feeling that gays and transsexuals have little in common doesn't mean one is bigoted or disapproving, IMHO.

In fact, the author specifically states that he's fine with transsexuals - but goes on to note that people have unfairly categorized him as a bigot simply for expressing his opinion on the differences.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 08, 2007, 11:40:16 AM
He is one of the redactors who wish to forget that Stonewall was started by the drag queens who were outside on the sidewalk because they were not allowed to drink inside the gay bar.  Gay discrimination against trans people is older than the gay rights movement that we started.

Yea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.

I get the practical, political reasons for us all being lumped together. I do. But as a straight woman, I have nothing in common with the GLB community aside from as Jennifer Boylan once put it, "We tend to get beat up by the same people."

Ultimately, I guess I DO want ENDA. It's probably a necessary evil the way things are right now. But darn it, the Number One question I was asked when coming out was, "Oh, so you're gay, huh?" And being lumped into a GLB "community" just reinforces the stereotype that TSism "evolves" out of being super-gay, and that it's all about gay men changing their sex so they can deceive straight men.

~Kate~

YES! YES! YES!

You are rocking lately dream dancer... 

tink

Initially, at snonewall, and even until the 90's, many many TS started in gay circles because lets face it, there was not much options, much confusion and little information.

In support groups around 90, many could be called drag queen, by the way they dressed and coming from the gay scene. In current support groups, I don't see that anymore, only the older TS 30 and over remain, most of the "gay TS" transition by 18 often doing DIY. They tend to stay away from support groups which have older TS.

So, initially, the T was legitimately tagged to the LGB because it was mostly the same crowd, now it may needs to be reassessed. Keeping it there, but also finding out why it should be there.

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 07:22:33 PM
In fact, the author specifically states that he's fine with transsexuals - but goes on to note that people have unfairly categorized him as a bigot simply for expressing his opinion on the differences.

I've heard that sort of thing before: "Some of my best friends are negroes."

The bottom line is this:  There ARE differences between gays (drag queens) and transsexuals and anyone who thinks there aren't is just trying to cover the sun with one finger....



tink

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 07:22:33 PM
Feeling that gays and transsexuals have little in common doesn't mean one is bigoted or disapproving, IMHO.

In fact, the author specifically states that he's fine with transsexuals - but goes on to note that people have unfairly categorized him as a bigot simply for expressing his opinion on the differences.

~Kate~

i'm gonna have to call you on that one, Kate. do you think that author is "fine with transsexuals?" the whole tone of that article was transphobic!

-ell

Quote from: Ell on October 08, 2007, 09:22:27 PM
i'm gonna have to call you on that one, Kate. do you think that author is "fine with transsexuals?" the whole tone of that article was transphobic!

How is it?

I just re-read the whole thing. Aside from maybe the "cut off their penis" wise crack, I can't find anything remotely transphobic.

Instead, what I'm seeing more and more is a Bush-like "you either support and agree with ME or you support the evil-doers" mentality from the TS community that's frankly beginning to concern me.

The tone I get from the article is:

1) Transsexuals and gays have little to nothing in common aside from being persecuted

2) ENDA *finally* has a change of passing if it's gay-only

3) Since we have so little in common, although he sympathizes for our fight, he can't in good conscious not seize this chance to get the rights the gay community has fought so long and hard for

That doesn't make him transphobic. That doesn't make him a bigot. That doesn't mean he's ashamed to be seen with us.

It just means he has a different opinion regarding how best to serve the gay community he belongs to.

~Kate~