Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 09:42:10 PM
How is it?

'How did the T get in LGBT?" (read: and what are they doing in our group?)

"The 30-year fight for a federal gay civil rights law may fail because activists insist on including rights for transgendered people too. Has gay inclusiveness gone too far too fast?" (read: we should have dropped the Trans from our group a long time ago.)

"Like an ever-expanding mushroom cloud of diversity, every few years America's gay leaders and activists welcome a new category of member to the community. (Excuse me? as Lisbeth pointed out, Trans were founding members)

"adding T for transgender/transsexual. And that's when today's trouble started." (i don't see how that's not offensive)

but what what really gets to me is the sense that Trans are being pushed aside by a group that i have stood by and supported for so many years. the truth is, i'm just hurt by some of the remarks from the gay community.

T was in LBGT from the start.
Except people lumped T's as G's.
Gays to gain more right, kicked out, even
the TS who start in their community out of there because
they sensed they could gain more traction if the "weirdos"
were out.

While I don't doubt that many of the drag queens of Stonewall
were crossdressing gays with not a hint of gender confusion, a bigger contigent were "gay" T's before the word was even uttered (that comes from my presense in TS support group in the late 80's early 90's).

What I sense here is a rewriting of the history of the gay rights movement to whitewash those weidos from the past so pushing them aside now feels justified. The funny thing is the ones that really need protection are the gays with non conformist gender presentations and they are basically being hung up to dry by their own community.

    Every single living creature in the whole entire universe is connected.  And, even beyond that, every single living being or creature in the whole wide universe is also connected to that which we do not consider living.
    If there were a group of purple people with elephant ears and batwings that wanted me as a member of their community, I would be darn proud.

    My only criteria is "Do these people respect all living things?  Do we share the same values?"

Here is 1 of the 7 Unitarian Universalist principles.

# Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part

   We are all a part of an interdependent web.  Even the people with whom we all disagree the most (Falwellians) are a part of this web. Does anyone remember this post by Trinity? https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,13358.msg100950.html#msg100950 Here is a quote from it

QuoteIn a way, I agree.  Jerry Falwell was a bigot.

However, I will never celebrate the death of one that did so much good in his life.  I will not judge someone by their evil acts, but by their good ones.  Unless, of course, the evil far outweighs the good.  I know that when my daughter had cancer before she passed, even though he knew I was a tgirl he STILL gave a $10,000 check to us to pay for medical care.

And so, even one of our worse enemies turned out to be capable of overcoming his differences with us in order to help a child.  It was ironic, of course, because he is one of the reasons that the GL&B's probably needed T's and vice-versa.

   Whether or not there is a break in the bridge between the GLB's and the T's is pretty meaningless when it comes down to the fact that everyone needs each other in some way and at some time. Gay people and Trans people have more in common than they lack. We all want to work without being discriminated against, we all want to raise children or have access to the children our spouses may have custody of, we all want the police and the courts to handle us and our cases with the respect and dignity we deserve, and we all want the right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.
   It is the common ground that holds us together.  One day there will be no need for activists. At that point it won't matter if everyone wanders off to their own little island to do whatever it is that everyone seems to want to do or to be whatever it is that everyone seems to want to be.

   It is about common ground and not differences.  If it were about differences, there would be no families that stay together and no communities and nothing.  Just nothing.

Quote from: Rebis on October 08, 2007, 11:28:20 PM
       Whether or not there is a break in the bridge between the GLB's and the T's is pretty meaningless when it comes down to the fact that everyone needs each other in some way and at some time. Gay people and Trans people have more in common than they lack. We all want to work without being discriminated against, we all want to raise children or have access to the children our spouses may have custody of, we all want the police and the courts to handle us and our cases with the respect and dignity we deserve, and we all want the right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.
   It is the common ground that holds us together.  One day there will be no need for activists. At that point it won't matter if everyone wanders off to their own little island to do whatever it is that everyone seems to want to do or to be whatever it is that everyone seems to want to be.

   It is about common ground and not differences.  If it were about differences, there would be no families that stay together and no communities and nothing.  Just nothing.

You really got it, especially about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  The most radical idea in the history of the world was the American idea: the idea that all are created equal, and possess inalienable rights by virtue of being human.  If we are ever to have a just world, that is the idea that we must see through to its honest conclusion, if it takes one year or a thousand.

Gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, transgender, transsexual, transsexual who never wants to hear the world transsexual again and thinks people who call themselves transgender are all freaks and fetishists, black, white, Asian, Indian, American Indian, Tiger Woods, you, me, all of us -- all are created equal, all possess the same rights, not because they're gay or transsexual or black or white, but because they're human individuals.  That's the most basic common ground of all, and the only base from which the fight we all want to win can ever be won.

every single individual in this country is entitled to just as much respect, just as much dignity, as every other individual.  barbara jordan

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 11:57:09 AMYea but... drag queens aren't transsexuals. They're gay men in drag, and have nothing to do with TSs. In fact, it's *exactly* that kind of confusion that I so badly want to erase.

Hrm... Well I'm a hetero CD who also does drag and the show I perform with includes three trans woman (two post-op, one non-op) -- and there's several others in town (San Francisco). Thing is, it's not uncommon for trans woman who's attracted to men to move in drag queen circles because its a visible niche -- similar to how most trans guys attracted to women initially move in lesbian circles.

And as Lisbeth pointed out, back at the time of Stonewall and Compton's Cafeteria "drag queen" was used to refer both the cross-dressing stage performers and trans women. Watch "Screaming Queens" and you'll find most of the interviewees are actually trans woman. In fact I perform with one of the queens who was part of the Compton's riot and she most definitely considered herself a trans woman, even as she's also active in the gay community. Watch "Paris is Burning" -- probably at least a quarter of the "queens" profiles were trans women.

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 01:15:02 PMThen you add in drag queens dressing up to parody women, and it just further proves that gay men really want to BE women, if given a choice.

Some DQ do parody women. However, in my experience, most don't. They may parody pretty much everything, but a lot of them were "ordinary" crossdressers before taking the same -- seemingly for the same reasons I crossdress (to express a feminine side of myself) -- although they're often quite closeted about that aspect of it because it's as stigmatized in the gay community as it is in the hetero community. So can we lay off the sweeping generalizations?

Aravosis' article is a replay of the 1970s when drag queens were kicked out the gay movement; butches and trans woman kicked out of the lesbian and feminist movements, all in the name of "respectability." The interesting thing is some of the strongest support I've seen for a trans-inclusive ENDA is coming from the folks in small town America -- where they don't have the luxury of self-segregating. Consequently those folks understand that even though sexual identity and gender identity are separate things -- there's also a lot we've all got in common. A number of gays and lesbians also are gender variant -- something Aravosis and the other well-to-do, politically-well-connected (probably "straight acting") white gay guys seem to want to overlook as well.

first, i base my answer on the distinction between transgender and transsexual. it has been my experience that many self-proclaimed transgenders expect that to mean the same thing as "transsexual", while the reality is, they are gender variant (tv, cd, drag queen, etc) and do not admit it. i'm perfectly ok with gender variant people if they are honest, yet i'm not ok with any orientation or gender who is dishonest.

the tg want to be a part of the ts community as well as the glb community. trying to have the best of both worlds only confuses the general public about what the ts is doing and who they are.  i think that hiding one's gender variance behind the label and/or pretense of something else can be hurtful to the image and the fight for equal rights by honest lgb & tss. and i don't see how lgb can be lumped together with tg or ts (although it nearly always is) since a tg or ts can be lgb, but lgbs are mostly not tg or ts.

personally i'd like to see a LGBTG & TS community since tg and ts aren't the same and sometimes the term tg confuses people.

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 02:26:07 AM
first, i base my answer on the distinction between transgender and transsexual. it has been my experience that many self-proclaimed transgenders expect that to mean the same thing as "transsexual", while the reality is, they are gender variant (tv, cd, drag queen, etc) and do not admit it. i'm perfectly ok with gender variant people if they are honest, yet i'm not ok with any orientation or gender who is dishonest.

So how would you classify people who are gender variant (e.g. reject the binary) and transition (including SRS) & pass?

Quote
personally i'd like to see a LGBTG & TS community since tg and ts aren't the same and sometimes the term tg confuses people.

I think the real problem is people wanting to shut out everyone they consider "weird".

Quote from: taru on October 09, 2007, 02:54:12 AM
So how would you classify people who are gender variant (e.g. reject the binary) and transition (including SRS) & pass?

i'd question why they insist on calling themselves "gender variant".  if they transition, have grs and live as their target gender, they are ts not gender variant.  people can believe themselves to be cleopatra queen of the nile but believing it doesn't make it a reality.  let's call people and things by what they are supposed to be called.

if they reject the binary, what is it they are transitioning to?  why transition at all? why grs?   to me, that implies they don't "reject" the binary at all but embrace it. thus they are ts not gender variant.

Hi Katia
Yep, I do agree with you and this has been one of the reason's I have not went to any of the TG conventions. I have been pretty well a loner through most of my transitioning, I didn't have anyone to go to when I hit the bumps in the road.

My Soul Mate has on many occasions told me that Transgenders just muddy up the waters for those who are true transsexuals. Those that want to eventually be recognised at real women, that we're not just playing games,

If I was just playing games, I may as well get a Colt Forty Five and play a game of Russian roulette.

QuoteBe careful whom you judge so harshly... I've found in my life that those who despise being judged are often the loudest about THEIR judgements

I love that statment, there is much wisdom in it.

Cindy

Quote from: Chris on October 09, 2007, 01:29:19 AM
every single individual in this country is entitled to just as much respect, just as much dignity, as every other individual.  barbara jordan

I saw a video of Barbara Jordan giving a speech.  She had to be the American Winston Churchill in terms of strength, dignity, articulation, and force of personality.

She's on my list of people to clone.

Posted on: October 09, 2007, 07:55:19 AM

---

QuoteAnd the princess and the prince
Discuss what's real and what is not
It doesn't matter inside the Gates of Eden

&

QuoteAt times I think there are no words
But these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden

I think Bob Dylan said that

Posted on: October 09, 2007, 08:03:46 AM

---

Quote from: Lena Dahlstrom on October 09, 2007, 01:40:09 AMA number of gays and lesbians also are gender variant -- something Aravosis and the other well-to-do, politically-well-connected (probably "straight acting") white gay guys seem to want to overlook as well.

SAWGG's should start their own group.   

Quote from: Keira on October 08, 2007, 11:17:11 PM
What I sense here is a rewriting of the history of the gay rights movement to whitewash those weidos from the past so pushing them aside now feels justified.

As confirmation of that, if you watch any documentary on the Stonewall riots, you will never see a single frame of film with a drag queen in it.  They're all lying on the cutting room floor.

Quote from: Lena Dahlstrom on October 09, 2007, 01:40:09 AM

Quote from: Kate on October 08, 2007, 01:15:02 PMThen you add in drag queens dressing up to parody women, and it just further proves that gay men really want to BE women, if given a choice.

Some DQ do parody women. However, in my experience, most don't. They may parody pretty much everything, but a lot of them were "ordinary" crossdressers before taking the same -- seemingly for the same reasons I crossdress (to express a feminine side of myself) -- although they're often quite closeted about that aspect of it because it's as stigmatized in the gay community as it is in the hetero community.

Kate, I understand what you are saying about drag queens as a parody of women, for a time I was uncomfortable going to drag shows for that very reason.  But then I realised something.  They are not parodying ordinary women.  They are parodying show girls.  Show girls are not ordinary women; they're Barbie dolls that move.  Show girls need to be paradied to show how absurd the whole show girl industry is.

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 02:26:07 AM
personally i'd like to see a LGBTG & TS community since tg and ts aren't the same and sometimes the term tg confuses people.

In Canada they always use "GLBTT."

Quote from: Rebis on October 08, 2007, 11:28:20 PM
   Whether or not there is a break in the bridge between the GLB's and the T's is pretty meaningless when it comes down to the fact that everyone needs each other in some way and at some time. Gay people and Trans people have more in common than they lack. We all want to work without being discriminated against, we all want to raise children or have access to the children our spouses may have custody of, we all want the police and the courts to handle us and our cases with the respect and dignity we deserve, and we all want the right to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness.
   It is the common ground that holds us together.  One day there will be no need for activists. At that point it won't matter if everyone wanders off to their own little island to do whatever it is that everyone seems to want to do or to be whatever it is that everyone seems to want to be.

Divisivness does us no good.  That is why the entire LGBT community has to hold together.  If we do not, they will pick us off one at a time.

QuoteWhen the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent; I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent; I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out; I was not a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.
--Friedrich Gustav Martin Niemöller

I think we're getting away from the point.

It's not about who owes who, who marched where, who carried what burden, sticking together as a community, equality for all...

The article simply *tries* to point out that GLB's and TS's have little to nothing in common, and therefor perhaps shouldn't be lumped together into a single political group as it just confuses everyone as to what each is all about.

I'm with Katia on this, the more I read here, the more I realize there should be a GLB/TG group. Leave TS out of it. As with GLBs, TGs are fighting for their rights to be variant, to be different without persecution. It would SEEM like many people who call themselves TS WANT to remain identified as such, and therefor are really more TG than TS.

I read about "banding together as a community" and have to wonder what "community" TSs are in? GLBs and TGs may band together into like-minded communities, but TSs tend to blend back into the fabric of society if at all possible, and want to LOSE the TS designation... where GLBs and TGs are fighting to have their labels recognized.

We're just going in two totally different directions, and the author recognizes that and asks some very valid questions. I can see why people who WANT to be variant would be upset about splitting off from the GLBT "community," but I don't understand why TSs (who want to blend back in) would be so *personally* insulted by the suggestion?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 10:00:22 AM
I think we're getting away from the point.

It's not about who owes who, who marched where, who carried what burden, sticking together as a community, equality for all...

The article simply *tries* to point out that GLB's and TS's have little to nothing in common, and therefor perhaps shouldn't be lumped together into a single political group as it just confuses everyone as to what each is all about.

I'm with Katia on this, the more I read here, the more I realize there should be a GLB/TG group. Leave TS out of it. As with GLBs, TGs are fighting for their rights to be variant, to be different without persecution. It would SEEM like many people who call themselves TS WANT to remain identified as such, and therefor are really more TG than TS.

I read about "banding together as a community" and have to wonder what "community" TSs are in? GLBs and TGs may band together into like-minded communities, but TSs tend to blend back into the fabric of society if at all possible, and want to LOSE the TS designation... where GLBs and TGs are fighting to have their labels recognized.

We're just going in two totally different directions, and the author recognizes that and asks some very valid questions. I can see why people who WANT to be variant would be upset about splitting off from the GLBT "community," but I don't understand why TSs (who want to blend back in) would be so *personally* insulted by the suggestion?

~Kate~

Hi Kate,

   There are people in each group that would like to break off.  There are gay men who believe they stand alone and there are lesbians who believe they stand alone and there are T's who believe they stand alone.
    That's okay because that's what freedom is all about. I'm sure there are already groups for G's, L's, or T's only.  You have the choice of supporting such a group or not supporting any group at all.

   But when people who feel no need to be in the mix express their desire to see any of the smaller groups split off from the Union of GLBTIQA, it is stressing for someone who believes in unity. I can understand separatism, but it's not where I'm at.  I prefer the diversity and the strength that comes with it.
   If you are a part of no group or a TS only group, that's okay.  It's just that, personally, I have an anxiety attack that I'll be booted from the GLBTIQ world which is where I fit.  I guess that is an unreasonable fear.  There will always be loners and splinter groups and at least one, if not many, umbrella group(s).

   You fear we want to drag you along with us and we fear you want to remove us from our place amongst the umbrella people.

   Let's face it. No one is going anywhere.  TS's who appreciate the GLBTIQ will stick with it.  Those who don't will go their own way.

   Nearly everybody wins except the people who most need solidarity.  But if life were perfect, I'd be flying through space right now on my way to watch a sun being born.

   It is okay for us each to feel differently.   Nobody intends to hurt anybody else.  The fear, the discomfort, and the mistrust are all very unnecessary.

In my opinion.

QuoteIt's a restless hungry feeling
That don't mean no one no good,
When ev'rything I'm a-sayin'
You can say it just as good.
You're right from your side,
I'm right from mine.
We're both just one too many mornings
An' a thousand miles behind.

Bob Dylan


Love,

Rebis

Quote from: Rebis on October 09, 2007, 08:07:23 AM

Quote from: Chris on October 09, 2007, 01:29:19 AM
every single individual in this country is entitled to just as much respect, just as much dignity, as every other individual.  barbara jordan

I saw a video of Barbara Jordan giving a speech.  She had to be the American Winston Churchill in terms of strength, dignity, articulation, and force of personality.

She's on my list of people to clone.

I looked up Barbara Jordan in Wikipedia.  I found this quote amongst her other uplifting quotes...

Quote"There is no way that I can equate discrimination on the basis of sexual preference with discrimination on the basis of skin color."

It sounds like she would have agreed with the "immutable characteristics only" crowd.

We need to educate;

Karen

Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 10:00:22 AM
I think we're getting away from the point.

It's not about who owes who, who marched where, who carried what burden, sticking together as a community, equality for all...

Quite the contrary.  The religious right would be delighted if this split GLBT up into fighting factions so we could easily be defeated.  Now if you are willing to accept that consequence of "not being like those people," whichever letter out of GLBT "those people" are, then go right ahead.  Personally I would rather work with people than spend time trying to get people to see I'm not like them.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 12:03:34 PM
Now if you are willing to accept that consequence of "not being like those people," whichever letter out of GLBT "those people" are, then go right ahead.

What consequences? You mean like people realizing that I'm not variant, not "alternative," not trying to push gender boundaries, not belonging to communities bonded together by their sexuality? People realizing that I don't *identify* as a transsexual, that I just want to be recognized and accepted for who *I* am? Is it SO wrong for me to fight to be seen as an ordinary woman?

That's very difficult to do, shouting it from within a crowd of people fighting for their rights to be variant.

If I wasn't so scared of discrimination, if I was true to what I believe, if I wasn't willing to sell out who I am just for job protections.. then yes, I'd face those consequences in a heartbeat.

On the other hand, I think TG *should* probably stay in GLBT. It makes some sense for groups who WANT to be allowed to stand out to band together for protections.

But TS? No, it doesn't belong, aside from the obvious practical political advantages of piggy-backing along with the GLB fight. And that's what the author realizes and is annoyed at. I don't blame him one bit.

QuotePersonally I would rather work with people than spend time trying to get people to see I'm not like them.

They're not mutually exclusive. TONS of straight, non-TS people fully support and help with GLB rights. This suggestion is what keeps confusing and worrying me: that anyone who doesn't want to join the club is by default unsupportive somehow.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 12:31:01 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 12:03:34 PM
Now if you are willing to accept that consequence of "not being like those people," whichever letter out of GLBT "those people" are, then go right ahead.

What consequences?

*sigh*

These consequence.  You said them yourself...

Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 12:31:01 PM
If I wasn't so scared of discrimination, if I was true to what I believe, if I wasn't willing to sell out who I am just for job protections.. then yes, I'd face those consequences in a heartbeat.

...if you want to separate yourself from the people you don't want to be associated with, then welcome to the world of discrimination.  You say you are afraid of it, but that's where you are setting your course.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 01:51:37 PM
...if you want to separate yourself from the people you don't want to be associated with, then welcome to the world of discrimination.  You say you are afraid of it, but that's where you are setting your course.

But that's my point. Yes, it's tempting to stay associated with them, but...

Is it fair for me to run and hide amoungst the GLB's, pretending I have something in common with them, in order to use them to selfishly gain political protections for myself?

Is it fair to them that by doing so, I may be harming their own efforts to finally secure the rights they've been fighting for?

Is it fair to me OR them to sell myself out, to falsely "blend" into a crowd of variants, only to later abandon them to blend back into the gender binary?

I don't know if you can have it both ways. IMHO, if you're a TS, it's ethically wrong to say "me too!" to the GLB community just long enough to get what we want from that association. And if someone MEANs it when they say "me too," then they're talking about being TG, not transsexual.

So yes, breaking myself off from the whole GLBT thing might be risking discrimination for myself. I'm terrified to do it. But I DO think it's the "right" thing to do. The more honest choice anyway, at least for myself.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 02:14:26 PM
Is it fair for me to run and hide amoungst the GLB's, pretending I have something in common with them, in order to use them to selfishly gain political protections for myself?

Is it fair to them that by doing so, I may be harming their own efforts to finally secure the rights they've been fighting for?

Is it fair to me OR them to sell myself out, to falsely "blend" into a crowd of variants, only to later abandon them to blend back into the gender binary?

How altruistic of you.  I prefer to finish what I have spent the last ten years of my life working for: that noone's rights should be gained by climbing on the backs of others.  As the lesbian activist Rev. Janie Spahr said, "We all go through the door together or none of us goes."