i've only recently admitted to myself about being trans after years of identifying as female, and a pretty hard core feminist. my views on gender equality haven't changed in the slightest, but i'm worried about coming out to the communities that i'm a part of, mostly because i don't want my gender to affect how things are within them. for example, there's been quite a few male celebrities taking pictures in 'this is what a feminist looks like' tshirts, and i've seen backlash from that about how men shouldn't identify as feminists or be the ones talking about these things because it takes it away from women, which i guess does make sense. there was also a few tumblr threads i read a little while ago saying how trans men are often being sexist by trying to weigh in on feminism because they've experienced transphobia and sexism themselves, when really they shouldn't. i don't know, i'm mostly curious what other guys on this site think about it.

Hi Bos, Welcome to Susan's Place!

Please feel free to look around and explore. This site is a vast source of information that will help you along the way and a great place to meet new friends.

In the meantime, please review the following:

• Site Terms of Service and rules to live by
  
• Standard Terms and Definitions
  
• Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar)
  
• Age and the Forum
  
• Reputation rules
  
• Photo, avatars, and signature images policy
  

All the best,
Jill

If you're not a feminist (or someone who agrees with equality for women,  and between genders,  even if they don't use the term) then you're not worth my time in my book.

The issue comes when men drown out the voices of women so they're no longer heard, or try to use their allyship to gain access to women's spaces. But then if they did this they're not a true feminist.

^What he said.
It doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand how men knowing women are their equals could possibly take away from women. Isn't that the goal of feminism? For the genders to be seen as and treated as equal?
Tumblr is a cesspool of ridiculousness. Thankfully, the real world isn't like it. At least, I hope not.

I care about the original feminism, not this modern one.

I'm with him. If you can't say that you are for women's rights then you're obviously not the kind of person I wanna be around.
I wouldn't voice my opinion over women when it comes to feminist things though.

Quote from: lxndr on October 30, 2014, 08:06:22 PM
If you're not a feminist (or someone who agrees with equality for women,  and between genders,  even if they don't use the term) then you're not worth my time in my book.

The issue comes when men drown out the voices of women so they're no longer heard, or try to use their allyship to gain access to women's spaces. But then if they did this they're not a true feminist.

this. it's like when a white person tries to talk about racism. why should someone be heard more than someone who experiences it? that's what happens when some men claim to be feminist because they're talking over people who experience it because they have the privilege. that isn't right. it's cool to be an ally to things but you don't drown out the people it actually effects.

i also wouldn't rely on tumblr too much for your opinion on things. some things make sense but other people are so radical in their thinking that it completely takes away from the actual meaning behind things. it's just being a feminist and being a man, you have no right to speak out on it, even if you have experienced it when living as female. that's why trans men shouldn't be allowed in lesbian/women spaces. it isn't your place anymore if you're out and living as a man. it is just how it is, especially when trans women aren't allowed in those spaces a lot of the time.

Quote from: Bos on October 30, 2014, 07:48:06 PM
i've only recently admitted to myself about being trans after years of identifying as female, and a pretty hard core feminist. my views on gender equality haven't changed in the slightest, but i'm worried about coming out to the communities that i'm a part of, mostly because i don't want my gender to affect how things are within them. for example, there's been quite a few male celebrities taking pictures in 'this is what a feminist looks like' tshirts, and i've seen backlash from that about how men shouldn't identify as feminists or be the ones talking about these things because it takes it away from women, which i guess does make sense. there was also a few tumblr threads i read a little while ago saying how trans men are often being sexist by trying to weigh in on feminism because they've experienced transphobia and sexism themselves, when really they shouldn't. i don't know, i'm mostly curious what other guys on this site think about it.

(bolding things I'd like to specifically comment on)
It strikes me as exceedingly odd whenever someone in a group campaigning for better treatment, basically tells a supporter to f--- off. Obviously "talking over" the actual group of people affected is a problem. But I've seen allies practically spit upon simply for chiming in their support. Happens to cis people in discussions about trans rights too. "Discrimination against transgender people is wrong!"  "You're cis, this isn't your fight, shut up!"
When I see this kind of misplaced hostility I wonder, do they want support and progress for their cause, or a special exclusive club? Wouldn't it be more productive, if someone is butting in, to say, "Hey, look. Thanks for supporting our cause. But you're talking over the people affected by this problem. If you truly want to help our cause, it would be helpful if you [suggestions here]."

There is a truly impressive amount of misguided bullcrap on tumblr, I advise not taking it too seriously.

I'm 100% for gender equality. I won't touch the term "feminism" though. Too many self-dubbed feminist subgroups that are explicitly misandrist (going so far as to mock men's issues in men's spaces), transphobic, or other things I don't want to get lumped in with.

You still care about the women in your life, and the future of our society, right? Keep fighting for whatever you feel is right, not just for yourself, but for everyone, and screw whatever anyone else says. I had a similar identity crisis when I realized I was transgender, but realized the issues I feel strongly about should not just be about me or what I've experienced.

The people you mention are some of the reasons why I (and many others) adamantly refuse to call myself a feminist. I support actual equality. Don't take them too seriously...ignoring them strips them of their influence. If only everyone could see that.

2nd wave feminist here. People are people and deserve equal treatment. I'm not radical like some of the wingnuts but I'm pretty firm in my beliefs. Men can be feminist. My husband is too.

I'm MtF, but I can never resist joining in on the topic of Feminism, so I hope no one minds me butting in here lol ♥︎

It's absolutely fine for men to be feminists - as far as I'm concerned, feminism is about equality for all sexes, genders and sexual orientations.  The true spirit of Feminism isn't about "hating men" as it's so often painted, it's about hating sexism and misogyny (which - granted - is often perpetrated by some men).  That's something everyone should hate.

I know I mention her a lot on here, but Laci Green does an amazing job of summing up Feminism, at least in my humble opinion




It also interesting that the trans* community and the feminist community are getting closer together lately (as far as I've seen anyway).  It does makes a lot of sense though - after all, we (and even the larger LGBT community for that matter) have many of the same issues and concerns that Feminism has been fighting against.  The worst thing in this day and age that a man can be compared to is either a woman ("Pussy", "C*nt", "Tw*t", "Douche", "Stop being such a girl" etc), or a homosexual ("Gay", "Queer", "Asslicker", "Fudgepacker" etc).  Why are these things even insults?  Because of misogyny and sexism (which of course leads to things like transphobia and homophobia).  This stuff hurts men just as much as women, even if it's in more subtle ways than people realise.  So yeh, there's nothing wrong with a man being a feminist, and those who say otherwise are just flat out wrong.

Also - welcome to the forums hun!  Yay! A new brother for me to snuggle! ♥︎*Hugs*♥︎

I am a feminist, and everyone should be.

As an ftm person, seeking access to women-only spaces is generally not okay, but having progressive views cannot be a women-only space. (Note: I say generally okay because for some guys who have been through experiences like domestic violence, the only accessible help may be through a women-only space and everyone deserves access to these services).

Allies get complained about a lot in the college activist circles/tumblr, but what they really mean to complain about is bad allies. And since it has been decided that it is unproductive to say "not all male feminists" at that point it is up to us to step back, lay off and let the darkness pass, or be helpful in some way. When the person complaining is in a better mood, show (don't just tell) what a good ally you can be.

It can be hard to navigate, but being a feminist is for everyone. Being the most famous, vocal, celebrated feminist should be left to women.

Quote from: ♥︎ SarahD ♥︎ on October 31, 2014, 04:26:46 AM
The worst thing in this day and age that a man can be compared to is either a woman ("Pussy", "C*nt", "Tw*t", "Douche", "Stop being such a girl" etc), or a homosexual ("Gay", "Queer", "Asslicker", "Fudgepacker" etc).  Why are these things even insults?

Now, "douche", though.

Given the practice of douching is often actually disruptive to the environment down there (barring prescribed douches for specific medical conditions), "douche" could be a solid insult. It's calling someone "mostly useless and harmful to vaginas". Zing.

I believe that some folks believe that men can't be feminists, but only allies. No, I believe men can't be women, but can be allies. It's confusing an identity with a belief or something.
I was a feminist back in the 60s still consider myself one. If someone challenged me I would say the above. But there were quite a few men who were activists back then, like Alan Alda and Phil Donohue, who still are, as a matter of fact.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on October 31, 2014, 01:23:23 PM
...No, I believe men can't be women...

*AHEM*, I hope you didn't mean that the way it sounded hun ♥︎

Quote from: blink on October 31, 2014, 01:08:00 PM
Now, "douche", though.

Given the practice of douching is often actually disruptive to the environment down there (barring prescribed douches for specific medical conditions), "douche" could be a solid insult. It's calling someone "mostly useless and harmful to vaginas". Zing.

Hmm, I never thought about it in that way.  Fair point tbh ♥︎

I'm still a feminist. Yes I identify as male but I plan to help  take down the Patriarchy from the inside

I've never been 100% comfortable about feminism works honestly so I'm an ally to equal rights, but not feminism for the US tbh. I'm critical of modern feminism and even intersectionality beccause it turns into 'qu**r theory' sort of stuff that I'm not down for. I like talking about things in a realistic and evolving way instead of saying 'gender inclusive' when really it's not or holding onto stereotypes that are used to hurt people and make them seem more or less like people. I've been really unhappy lately about how inclusive and equal isn't equal and more about call out culture and shaming people into being quiet about issues. I don't hang with people who are phobic or sexist/racist, but I acknowledge when my views come off strongly.

You can be a man and still be a feminist, though as has been pointed out you will have to navigate that fine line between standing in solidarity with women or talking over them. Intersectional feminism recognises that there are multiple lines of oppression and privilege, and your voice will be relevant to discussions about oppression that you face. But that's no different to any individual, if your commenting on something about a form of oppression you don't experience the first thing you have to ask yourself is "am I adding to this discussion or drowning out the voices of people actually living this".

As trans people we get to experience both sides of the coin of male privilege, either gaining it or losing it, and we get to see first hand how crazy ---ked up it is. Certainly within trans inclusive feminist circles it's considered a valid an important viewpoint.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 31, 2014, 08:31:44 PM
if your commenting on something about a form of oppression you don't experience the first thing you have to ask yourself is "am I adding to this discussion or drowning out the voices of people actually living this".

I don't mean to derail the conversation or whatever, but I do want to point out that I have been on the receiving end of this from "feminists." I am a rape survivor, but I've had "feminists" who had never been raped tell me that I had no right to talk about it.

Don't see any conflicts between feminism and whatever gender/sex you are.

fem·i·nist
:  a person who supports feminism.
:  of, relating to, or supporting feminism. ("feminist literature")

fem·i·nism
:  the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

gen·der
:  the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

sex
:  either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures

fe·male
: of or relating to the sex that can produce young or lay eggs

trans·gen·der
:  of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth



As for the "talking over women" aspect, I think that's not really a topic about feminism, women, and transguys, but more about social skills and social graces. Timing, wording, how the people listening feel about the speaker (are they friends? does the speaker have to prove themselves first?), situation, the weather, mood, the flow of the conversation... those are the deciding factors I think. Just keep an eye out and observe, I think you will be able to "feel" if people will be offended or not. People's behaviors and thoughts are not so logical.