Hi all,

I'm relatively new here, so I apologize if this topic has been discussed a lot before.

I'm FAAB and identified as cis until recently (still use female pronouns, birth name), and a few years ago I read an essay online about a lesbian who'd had top surgery and it blew my mind; I'd thought you had to identify as a man to do that. That planted the seed and fast-forward to today: I'm now one month post-op top surgery and for the first time in...ever?...there's a part of my body that I absolutely love.

I knew before the surgery that I wasn't FTM but perhaps because I didn't know any cis women who felt this way about their breasts, I tried on labels like "neutrois," "agender" and "FTN." (I got my surgery in Asia so it came with relatively few psychological hoops to jump through...) but interestingly enough, post-surgery I feel like my feminine identity is stronger than it has been in a long time - even as I gleefully present in ways I never could have pulled off before.

So it has me thinking...maybe I'm not actually non-binary. Maybe I'm just an androgynous woman who hated having breasts.  I always hated that I had these extra bouncy, jiggly blobs of flesh that society fetishized and caused men to jeer at. And I've always yearned for the freedom and simplicity of men's wardrobes without having to bother with a bra. And top freedom! Hallelujah - puberty stole it from me and now I've got it back! 

But do those societal privileges define my gender identity? My friend asked me if I were on a desert island where I'd never have to put on a shirt again, would I have STILL gotten the surgery? I told him I wasn't sure. I would have still hated the inconvenience of two pendulous growths sticking out of my chest, but probably with the same mild disgust I have for the extra fat that sits around my hips. If it weren't for the way society treated me with breasts, I probably wouldn't have shelled out thousands of dollars to get them removed, no.

I would think gendered restrictions would feel particularly suffocating for MAAB in our culture. What if you're a dude who just likes to look pretty? Or wear dresses? Or have a gentle, introverted personality? All forbidden by our society. Does that require you to forgo some or all of your masculine identity in order to be able to present/embody those things?

How do you know you're really non-binary and not just a binary or cis person yearning for greater gender freedom?

I don't want to apply an identity that doesn't fit, cos that sh*t ain't funny, but to me cis means being happy with your assigned gender within they narrow definitions of that gender in the cistem. Gender non conforming cis individuals are still punished by the cistem for not fitting the narrow definitions of gender, but they are still happy with their assigned gender.

I think that gender non conforming cis gender still exist under the non binary umbrella without being trans, because you don't actually have to be trans to not fit in the binary. Non binary identities are still being explored, are often ridiculed by both cis and trans folk, and given how we exist outside the boundaries of binary gender they can be defined pretty much how ever you want. There are certainly non binary identities that describe being happy with some of your gender but not all of it.

Ultimately though, if you say you're a woman, you're a woman. You not having breasts doesn't make you any less of one.

Not sure if that helps or is just more rambling.

Interesting question.

I too, desire top-surgery to regain the flat chest that was distorted through puberty. I actually had quite a delayed puberty and believed I would be a flat-chested girl ...which, in hindsight, I would've been okay with but the periods, I wanted them gone so there was still that as I had no interest in bearing children, much less having sex with that part of my body.

I view breasts and vagina as something that confines me to the binary system, it binds me to these stereotypes that I do not wish to fulfill. It binds me to the female binary that I wish to have no part of. But I also do not wish to be a part of the male binary either. Having sexual characteristics of either sex is a trigger for my mind, the only way to ease the dysphoria is to gain a close as possible sexless body. I know people will be shocked to hear I desire metoidioplasty and they will ask, "Why? That will give you a male set of genitals!" Ah yes but I am hoping to tailor the surgery to my needs. No testicles or scrotum, vagina opening surgically closed up and the urethral hook-up through my new neo-phallus. It is small enough in shape that I will still be able to wear female panties (I'm assuming) without any visible bulge on days I feel feminine. On days I feel masculine, I can pee standing up and look gender neutral while wearing men underwear. That freedom to swap between the binaries of my free will is the ultimate joy I could ever receive. I will not feel chained to either one, I will be free to identify however I please.

It's wonderful that having a chest affirms your feminine identity. I have a feeling when I have top surgery, I will feel the same as you, only in the agender and feminine gender expression sense, I would be able to wear the feminine-orientated clothing I wouldn't have been able to even entertain the thought of wearing pre-surgery, even with a binder on.

I am seen as a femme young man I prefer the term boy by society, I am gentle and very introverted. I am still here in society. Nobody has banished me, people are quite puzzled by my nature but it's not like it isn't uncommon. There are plenty of guys out there who do not conform to the masculine stereotype. I do hate that I cannot wear dresses or make-up freely as a boy, I do it behind closed doors... mainly since I have not completely trained my gender neutral voice yet. I would like to be more confident with my voice, then I will go outside and be free to be myself without fear of inviting violence or discrimination.   

I would claim that cis and trans are labels that are useful as descriptive terms but not as restrictive terms.

The important question is "does your body cause you dysphoria". If yes, you have gender identity dysphoria, and it is appropriate to for it to be fixed.

My therapist discourages me from trying to label my gender identity and tries instead to focus me on what changes I need to make.

My mtf perspective here. If you are happy where you are at then STOP.  I never advocate transition. I also know some individuals that have done SRS and did not transition, it works for them.

body causing dysphoria doesn't necessarily mean you have gender dysphoria. i hane a gender dysphoria about my hips, that i'm sure of. it's because they're too big to present male with. people wouldn't believe me even with perfect binding.
but my chest is just something i hate having. i hate feeling my nipples, i hate how they bounce, i hate that i can't take them off, i hate that i can't take my shirt off, i hate when they're sore. but it doesn't feel like this is because of my gender identity. i feel like a b cup would be perfectly acceptable. it's just weird and i don't hate the things enough to not appreciate how nice they look in a bra.

So, recently I had something interesting pointed out to me.

Even though I swing back and forth in identifying myself as male or female at times, whenever I feel female, even if it results in stupid piles of dysphoria and frustration, I feel... hope. Like maybe, just maybe, I've found a little piece of myself that I've been burying for a long time and my life could get better because of it.

I certainly am not fond of gender stereotypes, I feel way more Ellen Ripley than Elizabeth Beckett... though Ripley can come with her own stereotypes at times... you get my point. I don't want to be female because it would let me wear frilly dresses. I want to be female because I think it might let me connect with myself and the world better.

Of course I'm nervous, I have my doubts about this and everything.

But I also have hope. And that's perhaps the most precious thing to me.

God I sound flowery, I might have to shove some aliens out an airlock to balance out 

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on October 31, 2014, 11:47:44 AM
My mtf perspective here. If you are happy where you are at then STOP.  I never advocate transition. I also know some individuals that have done SRS and did not transition, it works for them.

Quote from: suzifrommd on October 31, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
I would claim that cis and trans are labels that are useful as descriptive terms but not as restrictive terms.

The important question is "does your body cause you dysphoria". If yes, you have gender identity dysphoria, and it is appropriate to for it to be fixed.

My therapist discourages me from trying to label my gender identity and tries instead to focus me on what changes I need to make.

I agree with both these posts. People have the right to make changes to their bodies. Women get breast augmentations all the time, it's sad that the opposite is treated as somehow a less valid option. It's your body and your decision for what's right for you, regardless of gender. You don't need any special justification here, and don't have to overthink it.

And, it's great that you had access to something that has made you more comfortable in your own body.

Quote from: Karen345 on October 31, 2014, 06:29:37 PM
I don't want to be female because it would let me wear frilly dresses. I want to be female because I think it might let me connect with myself and the world better.

What if what you really, in your heart of hearts, want to do is wear frilly dresses and look pretty, and doing so connects you with yourself and the world better?

P.S.: To "wear frilly dresses" I'd add: hold babies; look at cat GIFs; not have to be in charge; be soft; be able to cry.

Quote from: Asche on October 31, 2014, 09:47:58 PM
What if what you really, in your heart of hearts, want to do is wear frilly dresses and look pretty, and doing so connects you with yourself and the world better?

P.S.: To "wear frilly dresses" I'd add: hold babies; look at cat GIFs; not have to be in charge; be soft; be able to cry.

Then that's you and you should be okay doing all that stuff! But I never tied those things to a gender really. I know society does, but there shouldn't be anything stopping anyone from doing those things.

I guess I just never tied gender to activities, to me its more about how you feel about your body and self. It's a frustratingly ephemeral thing to be honest.

Thanks for all of the thoughts and discussion, everyone - I enjoy hearing different perspectives.

Someone mentioned period dysphoria and I wanted to add that I'm thinking about having a hysto in the future to end mine, too. Is what I'm feeling really "dysphoria" or just common loathing for the mess and inconvenience shared by most cis women the world over? Of course no one can answer that question except me, but it does raise the question of where to draw the line between those two feelings.

But if most cis women hate their periods - those who are not considering conceiving, that is - why don't they consider this surgery? Some people, usually people outside of the trans community, say that having a hysterectomy is a pretty radical step for fixing a feeling shared by most cis women, everywhere, which implies that there is some kind of sympathetic "sisterhood" built around whining about cramps and finding places to hide tampons.

I feel zero affiliation for this kind of community. In fact, I always feel a little queasy whenever someone starts talking about the specifics of their period and I wonder to myself, "Am I a misogynist? Am I dysphoric? Or am I just intolerant of complaining with no effort at finding a solution?"

What's clear is that I don't want to have to deal with periods. Ever. What's less clear is whether it's because of the obvious or some underlying identity issue.

I think that is because there are complications surrounding hysterectomy?

It also doesn't help that there are doctors who will tell people even if they are absolutely sure they do not want to conceive and they have the hysterectomy, ten years later down the track, they may enter a new relationship and want to conceive children. My own GP has used this same example with me the other day.

Regret is always a possibility... however, when I was 13, I knew I did not want kids. I had reoccurring nightmares of being raped, falling pregnant and committing suicide shortly after putting the newborn child up for adoption (going as far as making sure they have genuine loving parents). When I was 16, 18, 20 and now at 25, I still do not want kids. People always treat this as a "It's okay, when you grow up, you'll want kids." statements which really makes me angry. I thought witnessing my sister with her newborn son would encourage a desire within me to have children. My nephew is cute but watching them has only reaffirmed my stance that I definitely do not want kids, I don't have mother or father "maternal" feelings within my body, if anything, having the responsibility of a child on my shoulders would be equivalent to a living nightmare. If people think I am missing out on the "greatest joys in life", they are more than welcome to think that but I disagree, I am plenty happy on my own without the need to have children to give me a sense of fulfillment in my life.

It's amusing to me because if I had a biological penis and I was in a relationship with a woman, we were in love and wanted to have a family together then yeah, in that instance, I would most likely want to have kids. However, I don't have the proper equipment for that. Even though there is an IVF method to take a transman or ciswoman's egg DNA and insert it into a "blank" semen sample then put it inside the partner's body, it's an extremely expensive method.

For me, periods caused me violent mood swings, depression and suicidal tendencies in the days leading up to the period, during and after. Imagine dealing with this monthly hell (literally) for several years. This condition, I later learned is called Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder. As a result, my lower than average T levels were most likely the reason my body was extremely sensitive to the spike in hormonal changes.

Question is, do every ciswoman in the world experience what I experienced during periods? There's PMS that is universal for every ciswoman everywhere and there is a small percentage who experience PMDD, the extreme form of PMS that is debilitating.

I don't know what this means, but I'm female-assigned, have PMDD and experience little-to-no period dysphoria. Or rather, I do, but I'd bet dollars to donuts it's hormonal, not circumstantial. The act of having my period, the physicality of it, the back and forth of "cramps and tampons" -- that's all fine with me. In fact, I'm one of the only transmasculine guys I know (non-binary or otherwise) who doesn't feel freaked out by reproduction stuff. I actually want kids. I've always wanted kids. And I'll never father one, so, hell. I've actually always thought of my desire to raise children as my strongest tie to womanhood.

I struggle a lot with the "gender nonconforming vs trans" line, and that's just one example. I can't help but feel like a person who was actually transmasculine would have some degree of discomfort with their uterus, but here I am, essentially non-plussed. But then, on the other hand, I definitely feel more comfortable with my body and myself when I bind and pack, regardless of whether I'm passing as male.

It's weird. And kind of unsettling. I'm always afraid to go a step too far, and yet at the same time I'm can't help but worry that that fear will prevent me from taking going far enough.

the whole process of getting a child didn't freak me out at all. i never minded my periods before i got her. but after... they became unnecessary. it feels like i knew even before she was born, that this was the only time i'd so this. i wished for twins so the child would have a sibling to play with. i was oerfectly ready to have another one for the first day after she was born. and then it stopped.
breast feeding was a chore of the type i didn't mind doing, but it never gave me that warm feeling i see mothers have. i was just taking responsibility, and the child was adorable too. i wouldn't want to be without her, not after meeting her.

i've tried all the things women usually do. didn't make me feel like a woman, instead i just felt much more strongly that woman is something i really am not. but i've tried it, and i don't regret it. it's given me a lot. but now it's time to just be me, the way i really am.

Honestly, the way I see it, "man" and "woman" and "binary" and "non-binary" are just societal labels... best-fit words that try to shoehorn everyone into narrow boxes.

Just like there's cis FAAB people who don't want breasts, there's also cis MAAB people who don't want their penises or don't want testosterone in their bodies. And the overlap with the trans community is a bit blurred.

What makes someone a man or a woman? Is a woman defined by breasts, or a vagina, or estrogen, or the social treatment they receive? Is a man defined by a penis, or testosterone, or his lack of breasts, or the social treatment he receives?

The only answer I can think of is, it's complicated. Because there are many women who don't have breasts naturally, or are born without vaginas or uteruses, or whose hormones are a bit different, and men who are born without penises, or who actually do have gynecomastia, and yet have no issues saying that they are women or men. Likewise there's trans people who don't want top surgery, don't want SRS, and yet have no problems calling themselves members of their identity gender anyway. Some trans people don't even want to get on hormones. So at what point do you call them trans?

Basically, at the end of the day, all this is, is trying to slap a nice neat label on a humanity that is WAY more complicated than can be shoehorned into a group with a label. At the end of the day, you are you. You know what you want. If you're happy with having had top surgery and yet still presenting as female, then that's who you are. To hell with what anyone thinks, and to hell with any label. Because at the end of the day, who cares? You're a person that's happy being you, regardless of what someone decides to call you or treat you as. So I wouldn't worry about it.



Like, let's suppose that it was completely socially okay to be male and yet be pretty, and that it was possible for society to treat men in the same way they treat women, as non-threatening, as sweet, as personable, as able to be emotionally close with people. Then would I have needed to slap the label of "female" on myself? What makes me female? Is it that I'm on HRT and happy, that I want SRS, that I speak in a high voice? Or would I be okay with being male if we lived in a society where it was acceptable for men to be treated in the same manner that women are treated, and have smooth skin, boobs, a high voice, and not have a penis anymore. Would I mind being seen as male then?

I don't know. It's all societal BS, and we live in an imperfect system. So I say do what makes you happy, and to hell with the labels. Labels are purely for the benefit of others who are trying to understand and categorize you, not for you. They're imperfect best-fit words. At the end of the day, I don't know if I'm "female" or not. Am I? Or am I just a man who's more comfortable with smooth skin, boobs, doing "feminine" things, and being treated like women are treated? I don't know. But who cares. In this imperfect system, calling myself "female" is the best way to get people to understand me, so I use it. Same deal with you and other non-binaries. At the end of the day, the label doesn't really matter, what matters is that you do what makes you happy and be proud of it.

Quote from: Karen345 on October 31, 2014, 06:29:37 PM
Even though I swing back and forth in identifying myself as male or female at times, whenever I feel female, even if it results in stupid piles of dysphoria and frustration, I feel... hope. Like maybe, just maybe, I've found a little piece of myself that I've been burying for a long time and my life could get better because of it.

I was the same way when I was first starting to accept my gender and I felt male. Come to think of it, I'm still the same way except the hope grew so much more than I could have imagined.

Around the time I came out to her, my mom asked me what feeling like a guy felt like. I didn't have the words to describe it and I still don't. I believe it is too personal and abstract a concept to be able to describe in words.
She also asked me if I just wanted to be a man because I thought I needed to be to be powerful. I am by far the most powerful person in my family and have been since I was a little kid. I can't quite accurately convey how ridiculous this question is, but I'll try. Some people here have called me strong and intimidating. Yeah... That has nothing to do with my transition. I've always been this way.

Quote from: Vestyn on October 31, 2014, 09:53:02 AM
Hi all,

I'm relatively new here, so I apologize if this topic has been discussed a lot before.

I'm FAAB and identified as cis until recently (still use female pronouns, birth name), and a few years ago I read an essay online about a lesbian who'd had top surgery and it blew my mind; I'd thought you had to identify as a man to do that. That planted the seed and fast-forward to today: I'm now one month post-op top surgery and for the first time in...ever?...there's a part of my body that I absolutely love.

I knew before the surgery that I wasn't FTM but perhaps because I didn't know any cis women who felt this way about their breasts, I tried on labels like "neutrois," "agender" and "FTN." (I got my surgery in Asia so it came with relatively few psychological hoops to jump through...) but interestingly enough, post-surgery I feel like my feminine identity is stronger than it has been in a long time - even as I gleefully present in ways I never could have pulled off before.

So it has me thinking...maybe I'm not actually non-binary. Maybe I'm just an androgynous woman who hated having breasts.  I always hated that I had these extra bouncy, jiggly blobs of flesh that society fetishized and caused men to jeer at. And I've always yearned for the freedom and simplicity of men's wardrobes without having to bother with a bra. And top freedom! Hallelujah - puberty stole it from me and now I've got it back! 

But do those societal privileges define my gender identity? My friend asked me if I were on a desert island where I'd never have to put on a shirt again, would I have STILL gotten the surgery? I told him I wasn't sure. I would have still hated the inconvenience of two pendulous growths sticking out of my chest, but probably with the same mild disgust I have for the extra fat that sits around my hips. If it weren't for the way society treated me with breasts, I probably wouldn't have shelled out thousands of dollars to get them removed, no.

I would think gendered restrictions would feel particularly suffocating for MAAB in our culture. What if you're a dude who just likes to look pretty? Or wear dresses? Or have a gentle, introverted personality? All forbidden by our society. Does that require you to forgo some or all of your masculine identity in order to be able to present/embody those things?

Vestyn

You may well be a cis woman who needed to remove her breasts or you may be non binary, only you can determine and affirm your gender identity.  This takes work and usually involves partnering with a good gender therapist, but if you are happy with your understanding of yourself, why look any further?

To me life is about self discovery, acceptance and expression.  There are no standards other than your own, the only target is authenticity and expression of your spirit and soul.

DF perhaps best expresses my thoughts on this when they said

"I don't want to apply an identity that doesn't fit, cos that sh*t ain't funny, but to me cis means being happy with your assigned gender within they narrow definitions of that gender in the cistem. Gender non conforming cis individuals are still punished by the cistem for not fitting the narrow definitions of gender, but they are still happy with their assigned gender.

I think that gender non conforming cis gender still exist under the non binary umbrella without being trans, because you don't actually have to be trans to not fit in the binary. Non binary identities are still being explored, are often ridiculed by both cis and trans folk, and given how we exist outside the boundaries of binary gender they can be defined pretty much how ever you want. There are certainly non binary identities that describe being happy with some of your gender but not all of it.

Ultimately though, if you say you're a woman, you're a woman. You not having breasts doesn't make you any less of one."

Safe travels

Aisla