Quote from: stephaniec on November 01, 2014, 08:02:14 PM
I know some have rigid views of " PASSING ", personally I consider myself "PASSING ' as long no one throws stuff at me while walking down the street because I have a medical condition that needs healing. just curious for those with more rigid views if you have a safe back up plan if you find you can't meet your own perception of ' PASSING '

Hmmmm...... to repeat that overused phrase "I see what you did there", well... not only are you a gem yourself stephanie, but it is nice to see others discover that they already possess the polish 'within' for making themselves shine.  Dani

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on November 02, 2014, 01:14:16 AM
My thoughts exactly..now I want buttered biscuits and gravy *mega drool 

Yes, truly yummy, and absolutely bad for you - it won't even go to the hips boo hoo!  (For folk who are not American, said biscuits and gravy are basically scones with crumbled sausage meat in a savoury roux or white sauce. )

Back to the thread...a backup plan, hmmm.... I guess that in the event of an invasion by fundamentalists (choose your religion - they're all the same!) I'd just end up being a prettyish boy with a reaaaly bad beard.  Given the rather pathetic state of live-and-let-live religions at the moment, although I did seriously consider this as a possibility, I think it remains rather unlikely, even if some misguided people want to return Spain to the days of Al-Andalus.

In real and practical terms, I had reached the point where I had no backup plan.  I announced my intentions to the world and moved forward.

Quote from: Alex Eli on November 02, 2014, 08:28:16 AM
so you all are just gonna pretend that part of your life never happened once you are done? 

No. Because that isn't an option. However, I will say what I feel about it when asked. The truth is that 90% of it sucked. (Especially my childhood & teen years) I will never say anything different.

I hope people don't discount my opinion here for some reason because I ended up passing well or seen as some sort of success story, but my belief / m.o. has always closely paralleled what people are mentioning here.

I think it depends a lot on the standards you hold yourself to, or really what the term "passing" means to you. I think it should be looked at as a relative term. It kind of means something different to every person, and that is okay. That is how it should be in my opinion. It is up to us to define and shape our bodies and world around us, not others.

In the end, the goal should always be to be happy within ourselves (the whole reason transition makes sense). However any way that we are able to find happiness is a success story regardless of the applicable genetic cards dealt.

Overall it is a safe bet to drop all expectation of what we will achieve, and just try to simply take continuous steps forward- no matter how small or large. Achievement is a true generator of happiness, and one must not base their life's hopeful achievement on how well they "pass" regardless of how important it may seem- especially in comparison to others. There is so much more to life than to get hung up on this.

A bit from my own experience:
As I realized I was becoming closer to "passing", I noticed that it suddenly grabbed a LOT more of my attention. For a time, I think it may have even been detrimental to my positive outlook because I became very self conscious about the way I looked. It felt like I was seeking perfection for a moment there. I found myself becoming much too obsessed with my "ideal feminine form"- seeking perfection over positivity. Somehow in the haze I found the foresight to recognize this as a huge problem and consciously "banned" those thoughts from my mind with the help of a ceremony and a dear friend. And then shortly after, I found that the less I focused on passing the happier I became- which coincidentally allowed my inner femme to shine through more than I had ever initially hoped. After all, the best / most fulfilling reward is one that we do not expect.

Summing up...
Know that regardless what challenge life throws, there will always be the pursuit of happiness- even if one should consider that they are starting to pass or passes well. Seeking perfection is a step in the opposite direction, and pulls us away from forward progress / achievement / happiness. The most solid backup plan I can think of is to fully embrace this thought, and to know that there will always be something next on the horizon, or something that we must do to remain positive about our lives. Stay focused onward, and never look back. Never fear what could or could not be, and live life to the fullest the best way possible.

Quote from: antonia on November 01, 2014, 08:30:55 PM
I guess my backup plan is to present as non binary, you can still be funny, attractive, interesting and intelligent without presenting as one of the binary genders. I used to fear this possibility but I now see it as my second best option

Pretty much this for me too.  If I'm unable to present convincingly as female, non-binary seems like a good compromise.  I just can't be male, that's my only *REAL* requirement.  I'm not looking to be a supermodel or anything though.  I'd say I'm "passing" when more people read me as female than do male ♥︎

a lot of good thoughts here. and southern biscuits and gravy

I hate to be such a downer, but I think everyone here who just says "well, being happy with yourself is enough" are lucky people for being able to live that way.  And for someone who passes (Jenny, you're amazing, BUT I sorta need to say this) to say being happy with oneself is all that's important...it bothers me a lot.  Frankly, if you're stuck in a position knowing that you will be dehumanized and ostracized for the rest of your life, you'd be bitter as well.  If you can weather that, power to you.  That's awesome!  But for all of us who don't have that luxury...just try to respect that we can't all be islands, and for those of us who can't stand alone and can't blend in...well, it might be good to have a backup plan, in case we can't find a way to blend in. 

For me, the only 'required result' is to back off the dysphoria.  Since this trip is the only known successful way to treat it, there is no going back and no back up plan available.

I have lived for the last 7 years thinking I WAS in my backup plan.

An unexpected career change and financial bracket jump have made all my surgeries possible. At least I know I can survive in limbo as I have for the last years.

Kami

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 02, 2014, 12:53:24 PM
I hate to be such a downer, but I think everyone here who just says "well, being happy with yourself is enough" are lucky people for being able to live that way.  And for someone who passes (Jenny, you're amazing, BUT I sorta need to say this) to say being happy with oneself is all that's important...it bothers me a lot.  Frankly, if you're stuck in a position knowing that you will be dehumanized and ostracized for the rest of your life, you'd be bitter as well.  If you can weather that, power to you.  That's awesome!  But for all of us who don't have that luxury...just try to respect that we can't all be islands, and for those of us who can't stand alone and can't blend in...well, it might be good to have a backup plan, in case we can't find a way to blend in. 

Fair enough, I kind of knew that was coming. I understand. No offense taken and you don't sound like a downer.

At the risk of sounding defensive, I wanna mention that before I passed it was one of my favorite times of transition. I was actually thinking about staying in androgynous territory because I was already very used to it from my younger years with gender variance in public. It kinda felt like home- only I had been unleashed with absolute confidence to express everything and not care what people might think for a change. More dudelier than femme face, wedge heels, skinny jeans, leather jackets, mascara and eyeliner- that was me That feeling of open expression continued on and on, until I became very close to passing. That is when I hit my rough patch and had to reassess.

I feel like I see a lot of people hit a rough patch there, where it is just oh-so-close or they haven't quite accepted something.. stuck in a conundrum. I think it can lead to a feeling of "oh crap what's my back up plan if I don't make it work?" All that seems to do is add more stress into the equation, making it harder to focus on what truly matters: movement. We get so used to pushing hard in that home stretch that it can actually develop into an obsession to stop at nothing until we find some sort of ultimate peace or perfection- which is not really achievable even though some might try to make it look or sound like that. This whole idea could be as simple as coming out to oneself, or could be applied to the bodily transformation aspect of "passing". Even more generally, life.

Bottom line, there is no free lunch in transition. This we all know. But another bottom line is that there is no free lunch in life. It is all the same. We can either choose to be afraid and stagnate or push forward. The better choice is clear, but the decision to follow through with it is ours to make.

For anyone who knows they are going to be "dehumanised and ostracised" for the rest if their life as a result if transition I would say, can I go for a ride in your time machine? Because that's the only way you would know that for sure rather than just, say, extrapolating current or past experiences into the future. I'm not being flippant here, it is a serious point. A lot of people chew up years of their life hating on themselves and others, unshakeably convinced they'll never be accepted, that they'll never pass and then, no surprise, they are accepted and they do pass. Either that or they become a self-fulfilling prophesy. The now is not forever or the future.

That seems a tad optimistic, no?  Not that gloom and doom solves much either, but just believing your life will get better when so much of it is outside your control...I'm just going by what I see, and what I've already experienced.  I hope things do get better, but some of us will never have the privilege of belonging, sad to say.  I'm happy that's worked for others, but personally I've already lived as a person who felt happy but was secretly being laughed at without even knowing.  Optimism does help...but only in small doses.

Quote from: Ms Grace on November 02, 2014, 01:32:04 PM
For anyone who knows they are going to be "dehumanised and ostracised" for the rest if their life as a result if transition I would say, can I go for a ride in your time machine? Because that's the only way you would know that for sure rather than just, say, extrapolating current or past experiences into the future. I'm not being flippant here, it is a serious point. A lot of people chew up years of their life hating on themselves and others, unshakeably convinced they'll never be accepted, that they'll never pass and then, no surprise, they are accepted and they do pass. Either that or they become a self-fulfilling prophesy. The now is not forever or the future.

Over 30 years ago I felt I was going to be dehumanized and ostracized for the rest of my life. I had spent some 12+ years already on the receiving end and wasn't looking forward to a lifetime of it. I passed on my dream of transitioning twice because of odd looks and snickers. I opted to be "Normal". I opted to turn myself into miserable person.

The world is not and never will be perfect. I had female friends get accused of being guys. People love going for the 'Hurt' button. You cannot control that. The only thing you have power over is your response to it. Getting to a place where you can takes work.

I admire the people who can say "F'em. I don't care what they think". I also sometimes think they are are a bit daf.

Quote from: Julia-Madrid on November 02, 2014, 09:49:53 AM
Yes, truly yummy, and absolutely bad for you - it won't even go to the hips boo hoo!  (For folk who are not American, said biscuits and gravy are basically scones with crumbled sausage meat in a savoury roux or white sauce. )

Why would you want to ruin a scone that way? Surely a nice bit of butter and a delicious compote or jam is the only way to eat a scone (oh dear, brittishness coming out there).

On topic, genetically, I feel I am doomed to never fully passing. Being 6 foot 2 and blessed with size 13 feet there will always be clues. As for a back up plan, nope, I don't have one. Passing is my ultimate goal, failing that, well, I'll deal with that when the time comes.

No real plan.

I don't plan on doing the non binary thing. You may like it and I won't judge you for it but it's not my thing.

Passing I think is more than just appearance. I plan to prioritize my voice and mannerisms, not just my looks. But I do want to get my looks to a point where they are passable. I already have confidence and I plan to take that with me all the way to where I want to go. I may consider FFS as a very last resort if I have the money.

That said my other dimensions aren't too bad and my waist/hips/bust are an hourglass according to online calculators, but I don't know what to make of that because I'm not as shapely as some real hourglass figures that I see. I'm shorter (5'7" to 5'8") but my hands are kind of big but I'm hoping HRT can help make them at least softer.

I have no need for a back up plan. I know I'm not perfect, but I don't need to be it. It's not worth stressing over imperfections or hick ups in the road that a backup plan is needed.
Mariah

Personally, I think like 80% of tgirls can pass. Passing is just being able to look like a girl & blend in with society, correct? I believe that with many years of hormones, nearly anyone can be passable. Although, many of us want to be so passable we don't want to ever look like we've ever been the other gender, which is what I want. Do I consider myself passable? Yes, for the most part. Not completely, but another year on hormones will fix that I'm sure. Am I content? That's the ultimate question, & the answer is no. I'm honestly probably going to escort for my surgeries because I want to have my FFS & breast by the time I'm 21. I have 3 years & it's a very viable option. I'm just not entirely sure how to go about it since I've basically set myself away from the trans community. That's my back up plan, but it's just an option, not really a necessity. Idk. Life's hard. :/

I don't see myself as an optimist. Rather, a pragmatist and realist. My life is doing well so far, I'm not reading any more or any less than I need to. I acknowledge that may change in a heart beat, for the better or worse. Nothing is writ in stone regarding my fate and I chose not to dwell on it. As a former pessimist I can assure you that I feel much better for being a positive pragmatist.

I feel oh oh so mixed about this topic.

In a way I admire so much people who are thick skinned enough not to care about other people's perception of them, and be themselves and just put themselves out there. I personally I feel so trapped and alone sometimes in my struggle that's hard. But I suffer from obvious self-esteeem issues that have been plaguing me since I am about 14. It doesn't help that I don't have understanding parents, who are willing to listen and just say they understand instead of trying to fix you and telling your emotions aren't real, or that you self-pity yourself. I have only realized now how much of negative influence my parents have had in my life. I sub-jugate myself to others, a lot. I disqualify and dismiss myself and invalidate my own feelings all the time.

By saying that, I am just so worried I'll be stuck in some androgynous zone. I'm afraid of loiving a life in the margins of society. I like men, and I am petitite (5'5 2/3), and I sound like a woman. No joke. That's already a lot of stigma for me to live as man. I honestly I am trying to break through it or maybe I'm not yet, cause I have not realized that I am capable of doing it. I want to look like a woman and blend in without questions. But I do have lots of fears about SRS. I hate my thingy, but the thought of having it operated kind of scares me, because of the results, what may look like, the pain, IDK. But then again will men date me if I'm a woman with (an underdeveloped, but still) a penis? Will connections be genuine or will I be flaunted by ->-bleeped-<-s? I mean no offense to anyone, these are genuine concerns have. And I'm sosososo worried. Will gay men like me if I don't go through transition but stay femme? All the movies that picture gay couples are usually two hunks going together, they're both "straight-acting" (god, I hate this term but) and masculine and whatnot and usually can't stand "sissies". And I'm a total sissy. Actually, a fairy really. Not an exuberant, quite shy, but still a fairy. Okay, it's movies, but it surely depicts a reality. Cause everywehere in dating sites, gay or even bi men say "no femme" and how horrible is that. To restrict your options by an arbitrary and super subjective parameter just because.

I'm afraid it will only get worse either option, I honestly hope for the best. I so so so want want want want social inclusion and to feel like I belong. And to me transition isn't a dream. It's a necessity. My dreams are more like in helping people. I just want to present as myself and help people. That's all I have ever wanted. I believe I am genuine, helpful, kind, sensitive, sometimes passive aggressive, stubborn and quiet. But I think I have a lot to offer, and I want to. But is society ready for it? I don't know, honestly from my experience, it looks like that isn't true but maybe I am seeking it in all the wrong places. My life has become this huge confusing bubble from which I am not able to get out until I have figured out.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 02, 2014, 12:53:24 PM
I hate to be such a downer, but I think everyone here who just says "well, being happy with yourself is enough" are lucky people for being able to live that way.  And for someone who passes (Jenny, you're amazing, BUT I sorta need to say this) to say being happy with oneself is all that's important...it bothers me a lot.  Frankly, if you're stuck in a position knowing that you will be dehumanized and ostracized for the rest of your life, you'd be bitter as well.  If you can weather that, power to you.  That's awesome!  But for all of us who don't have that luxury...just try to respect that we can't all be islands, and for those of us who can't stand alone and can't blend in...well, it might be good to have a backup plan, in case we can't find a way to blend in.

Hi Painter.  I think your points are totally valid, but I do struggle to understand the root of your pessimism.  Because you're an interesting person and your posts are thought-provoking, I'd like to understand this better in your particular case.  As I've observed before, your avatar suggests that you're well into the territory of not needing a backup plan, as well as the area where you work, which, if I understand this area correctly, has always seemed to be quite open to non-traditional orientation and gender expression.  We will all always have some chatter take place behind our backs, no doubt, and nobody is immune to that so f'em.  But you use very strong language with the words "dehumanized and ostracized".  I'd say that yours is probably the strongest expression of the concepts that I've found in the 8 months I've been on Susan's, and I'd really like to understand what experiences have brought you to having felt this personally.

I know this is somewhat off topic, so we can take it offline if you wish.

Hugs
Julia