Quote from: m1anderson on October 28, 2014, 02:16:02 PM
I was watching this thread hoping so much to learn ideas moving forward.

I know I am the "red-headed step-child" here; 50 something, just about to begin HRT (so looking forward to introducing myself to myself), worked so hard in my younger life to pull-off alpha-male that it is now second nature; that I have to begin anew to learning the entire process of combining my inner femininity with my outer shell. Allie needs some serious help here (as Tessa James can attest), and I need to get running hard.

I am genuinely thrilled for the younger ladies that never needed to work at this, or the older ones that have connected at some level to their outer feminine needs throughout their pre-HRT days, but......

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGH, resources please.

Allie you are brilliant, determined and focused enough to be just the girl you want and you have the resources to get there.  Goodness knows there is more advice than asked for some days but, truly the land of You Tube and threads right here are full of learning opportunities.

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 28, 2014, 06:40:40 PM
Here's some good news ladies, thanks to the miracle of neuro-plasticity just living and being treated as female will socialise you as female. This even works if you were a grrrr! Manly man! Kind of of man, because any socialisation will be over written.

This is why having people in your life who respect your gender identity and treat you in line with that identity.

so true science and critically important social support are working for us in our transitions

Quote from: Dread_Faery on October 29, 2014, 09:29:16 AM
On a serious note, don't learn to be a woman, learn to be you. The cissexist, hetronormative patriarchy treats women as objects and second class citizens. Do what ever the hell you want and laugh in the face of anyone who tells you it's not feminine. Behaviour is only gendered because the world tells us it is, same goes for jobs, pastimes and activities.

Hell yes +1.  I couldn't believe the avalanche of advice that came my way.  While I like being approachable and learning it eventually became over the top stereotyping.  Be the girl YOU want to be.
Living with a woman and raising a daughter sure helped me to learn along the way

Great thread Stephanie.  It feels to me like you often have such innocent and provocative questions

I could have this long typed out post with a bunch of details and experiences but for once I can actually sum this up in one sentence. I stopped pretending to be something I wasn't and simply started being myself.

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on October 31, 2014, 04:31:54 AM
I could have this long typed out post with a bunch of details and experiences but for once I can actually sum this up in one sentence. I stopped pretending to be something I wasn't and simply started being myself.

I would agree. For many many years I pretending to be something I was not. Mind you though, I'm a great actor and I pulled it of exceptionally well. Unfortunately I learnt a few bad habits along the way so now just trying to break them. There's still much to do, but it'll come in time. Oh, voice, I'm starting Speech Therapy in January, woohoo!

Quote from: Julia-Madrid on October 30, 2014, 04:30:09 PM
Relax girlfriend.... it just kind-of happens.  But yes, you do become sensitised to certain things - how women speak, how they interact with men and each other.  It's not so difficult, although like anything worthwhile, it does require a bit of effort.  And then it becomes natural...

Perhaps my experience is different, as for me it was no effort at all to interact as a woman, it took "effort" to not appear too feminine when I used to be perceived as a male. Then again, I lived mainly with my mum and sister, and my Dad was never typically "blokey", or trying to 'toughen me up' so maybe in my case I never developed particularly masculine habits.

However, I have seen others who have developed masculine habits, perhaps out of necessity or repression, and have to "unlearn" these - although I think this could be applied to becoming yourself in any sense. We all have bad habits picked up from socialisation and experiences that mean we don't fulfil our true selves, whether it be making constantly scathing/sarcastic jokes to cover up fear and vulnerability, or being shy and repressed due to negative/embarassing experiences etc.

I think transition can be a "and while we're at it.." process - by which I mean, while we are making such a huge step towards becoming our true selves in terms of gender, we may as well also look at other aspects of ourselves and unlearn other, non-gender related bad habits while we're at it.

Quote from: Assoluta on October 31, 2014, 08:51:53 AM
Perhaps my experience is different, as for me it was no effort at all to interact as a woman, it took "effort" to not appear too feminine when I used to be perceived as a male. Then again, I lived mainly with my mum and sister, and my Dad was never typically "blokey", or trying to 'toughen me up' so maybe in my case I never developed particularly masculine habits.

However, I have seen others who have developed masculine habits, perhaps out of necessity or repression, and have to "unlearn" these - although I think this could be applied to becoming yourself in any sense. We all have bad habits picked up from socialisation and experiences that mean we don't fulfil our true selves, whether it be making constantly scathing/sarcastic jokes to cover up fear and vulnerability, or being shy and repressed due to negative/embarassing experiences etc.

I think transition can be a "and while we're at it.." process - by which I mean, while we are making such a huge step towards becoming our true selves in terms of gender, we may as well also look at other aspects of ourselves and unlearn other, non-gender related bad habits while we're at it.

Assoluta, you make some extremely valuable points.  Perhaps you were lucky to not have so much accumulated socialised masculinity, although it may also be that your "not so masculine" persona caused you some trouble amongst peers or at school or wherever. 

For me, although many people sort-of suspected that I was gay, as a company director and board member for too many years I had developed some nasty testosterone-driven habits.  Thankfully those have all fallen away, heavens it didn't even take 6 months!  But yes, it did take some effort, not enormous, but appreciable.

Hugs
Julia

This is something I've found that takes time. I remember when I was younger distinctly looking at girls foot patterns while walking & taught myself to walk like one. Much of it came very naturally because I was always very feminine. I would even get teased at school for it & was constantly asked if I was gay & such :p I actually can't say I ever really acted like a boy but if there is one thing I definitely did have to teach myself it was to eat like a girl! If you notice, guys tend to eat a lot more aggressive & a lot more than a girl does. Girls eat with smaller bites & just generally don't look as gross eating as guys do. My tip, there's too much on your spoon if you can't look cute eating it.

Quote from: Ms Grace on October 28, 2014, 01:28:10 PM
To be honest I just stopped acting like/pretending I was a man.

I'm not overly effeminate as a woman, but as a guy I was never overly masculine anyway. I already had the mannerisms I just never used them in public to avoid ridicule or people thinking I was "gay". Clothes and shoes... I've spent a large portion of my life eyeing the things I liked but couldn't wear, now that I can it's just a matter of finding it in my size! As for make up I'm not into it much and use it sparingly anyway.

Exactly what I've done!

My wonderful spouse has helped me a lot with makeup tips, shopping, fashion hints and so many other "girl tricks" Honestly dont know what I would do without her.

Quote from: stephaniec on October 28, 2014, 12:12:11 PM
just curious how did you or will learn about every day things like make up , fashion, mannerisms, conversation etc.

I have studied women all my life.  behavior, mannerisms, walking, talking, socializing, behavior. 

but that wasnt enough.

i took ballet as a senior in college.  that really helped to feminize my walk, give me proper posture and give a bit of grace and balance to myself in front of others.

took speech therapy for a little over a year and a half. 

im still learning about fashion....damn clothing trends change faster than thr weather!!!

im convinced I will never learn to style my hair as I want it.

estrogen and t-blockers did the rest.

having a good therapist to vent to and unload the baggage helps.

stay active, positive...eliminate sources of negativity and depresion.

surround yourself with quality people that support you.  go to a support group if possible. 

study the part, play the part, be the part. 

best of all...get in where you fit in.

The way I read the question was not "How did you become a woman" but "Which new things did you have to learn living as a woman", not saying it's the right interpretation but I think there might be more than one way to interpret the question.

Quote from: Isabelle on November 02, 2014, 04:57:48 PM
I don't like this question, it reminds me of "Little Britain"...  I didn't "become" anything. I just am. I look a little different than I used to.
If you think clothes,make up and mannerisms are what you need to "become" a woman, I actually feel sorry for you.

Quote from: antonia on November 02, 2014, 05:55:39 PM
The way I read the question was not "How did you become a woman" but "Which new things did you have to learn living as a woman", not saying it's the right interpretation but I think there might be more than one way to interpret the question.

I asked it because people gendered female from birth are taught by their mothers on the aspects of womanhood, dating dressing, etc. , etc. , but us trans are usually thrown in the deep end of the  pool to learn to swim.

Quote from: Isabelle on November 02, 2014, 04:57:48 PM
I don't like this question, it reminds me of "Little Britain"...  I didn't "become" anything. I just am. I look a little different than I used to.
If you think clothes,make up and mannerisms are what you need to "become" a woman, I actually feel sorry for you.

^This. Just be who you are. I haven't done anything, I'm 17 months in, which has been easy as I live in a trans-friendly city with a free access to HRT (I just found that out!!!), and I think what helps the most is authenticity. I'm shy, far from confident, deflect my eyes sometimes, yet guys ask for my number, call me mommy, all the typical stuff, and luckily haven't had to practice my voice, though, should, but I dread it.

I'm lucky but I also went to school, worked my a$$ off, never partied, and here I am.

But, the point is, be yourself. But I can agree with Isabelle in that I don't feel I became anything and find it a tad insulting (though I know it was not meant that way at all). Words and all. I am, was, and always will be a girl, whether I like it or not. I can't change it anymore i can change that I am highkly emotional and skinny. And people have commented on my girlishness whole life...though I have never been bullied. I was a victim of violence multiple times, but that was a wrong time, stupid decision thingy.

Come to think of it, I'd love to find out what my friend Andi, thinks of your "hypothesis". She was raised by 2 men.
I'm having trouble not seeing the implications of your question deeply misogynist.

Quote from: stephaniec on October 28, 2014, 12:12:11 PM
just curious how did you or will learn about every day things like make up , fashion, mannerisms, conversation etc.

I never "learned to be a woman." I learned how to act like a boy when I was younger to alleviate the torment and castigating behaviors from my four older brothers. I was already inherently feminine in my personality, demeanor, and mannerisms since I was little as many other transsexual women are. I was born with mild version of PAIS (but more severe than MAIS) so the lack of testosterone, I suspect, helped me along in that regard once I hit puberty and refused testosterone and dihydrotestosterone shots. Thus, I never "learned" how to be me. All the "learning" I did was trying to mimic my older brothers to avoid the social consequences of expressing who I really was. I find it perplexing how people need others to "teach" them to be the person they claim they are.

Perhaps you were born knowing how to do your makeup, how to layer your clothing, how to walk in high heels, how to do your hair and other things that women tend to learn growing up and then again perhaps you don't  do any of those things but most of us have to learn regardless of having XX or XY chromosomes. I don't think anyone is implying that you can become a woman by learning those things but simply that these are things that some of us feel like we need to learn and we are discussing how and when we learned these things.

Quote from: Isabelle on November 02, 2014, 06:25:42 PM
Come to think of it, I'd love to find out what my friend Andi, thinks of your "hypothesis". She was raised by 2 men.
I'm having trouble not seeing the implications of your question deeply misogynist.

Quote from: Isabelle on November 02, 2014, 06:25:42 PM
Come to think of it, I'd love to find out what my friend Andi, thinks of your "hypothesis". She was raised by 2 men.
I'm having trouble not seeing the implications of your question deeply misogynist.

sorry it wasn't meant that way. my mother died when I was  8  I had no understanding of the female perception of things. what I know is self taught.

Makeup: experimentation and online tutorials. Being involved in the rock /alternative scene since my teens has meant that I have a lot of experience already even presenting as male

Fashion: Jennifer Parkin can answer this question:





Mannerisms: I just act like myself. I act naturally feminine so all I have to do is not act like a guy. I don't discount the possibility that I've picked at least some of this up by osmosis over the years though

Conversations: much the same as mannerisms really, except I never really managed to learn how to talk like a man, so really all I need to do is talk without the usual restraints. If we're including voice feminisation in this too, then obviously voice feminisation therapy is going to help me there. I've always enjoyed singing along to my favourite music and I do lots of silly voices and impressions, so I've probably got a decent head start there too

"I find it perplexing how people need others to "teach" them to be the person they claim they are."

^^^
That sums it up pretty well perfectly.
Learning to put on eyeliner isn't "learning to become a woman"
It's learning to put on bloody eyeliner.

I wondered how long it would take before someone would take this innocently posed question literally.  Oh that's right some have a life line that suggests they were born a woman.  I am glad to hear that some never were a baby or a child that was socialized to their detriment or in directions that made no sense to them.  And some of us apparently never had a thing to learn because we aleady knew it all.  Okay, i'm sorry, sarcasm isn't pretty and neither is being harsh on your family here. 

I for one have a lot to learn and appreciate opportunities to share with others without fear of ridicule.  Misogyny is real, stereotypes are real and people wear masks and clothing that are culturally appropriate.  It's ok to learn about how others feel or how you solved some riddle isn't it?

Always more things I can learn, but many of these things I was able to do or had done before hand. I just improved my skills after starting my transition.
Makeup- I was pretty good at this coming in considering I had been playing around with it since my early teens. A makeover at Sephoria helped take it to the next level. Which helped cover my beard before laser really did a number on it.
Mannerisms- Many of these I was doing without even really paying attention.  I have no doubt this was a dead give away to those who live in my area. The reason behind remarks in my direction before I started and why they quickly disappeared after I started. However, I'm always paying attention to the little things around me and to those little things that I could benefit from learning and integrating.
Voice- My ability to sing someone what in that range to start with helped lay down a great foundation to start with, but this has been my biggest shortfall. Only because I'm not pleased with it even those others have said its good. I tend to be a perfectionist and I guess I that in my mind it is a work in progress. In time I'm sure I will come to love my voice but until then I keep trying to tweak it a bit.
Fashion- I have really used what knowledge I have as to what colors and styles look good on me and family and close friends have helped focus that better. A lot of it comes down to what I like while at the same time looks good on me.
Conversation- It's a work in progress I had some skills at it coming in, but confidence from gaining experience is what is helping me here. Sure I make mistakes sometimes, but then I learn from them and improve.
All in all much of it, as others have stated too, was unlocking the femininity that was already there.
Mariah

The question is just poorly worded. OP is merely asking how one learned to express their internal femininity externally in a way society recognizes. When I present as male, everyone assumes I'm male on the inside as well. In order to tell society that I'm female on the inside, I have to express it on the outside. This is not to say anyone has to do anything to anything to express their internal femininity externally. Present in any way or fashion you feel fit. However, society recognizes certain things as being masculine and feminine. It's silly, but that's how it works.

I'm still in the process of learning things. I'm using the internet and friends to help me. I'll present in a way that society recognizes as feminine, but the manner that I do will be my choice.