So, this one is a bit complicated.

TLDR, I often encounter people who run on faith and people who run on hope, these people seem to have incredible fundamental problems understanding each other and gender talks between these two groups can be extremely rocky.

Okay, so let me start with some definitions:

Faith Powered- These are people who, in times of desperation or when seeking definitions of themselves or others, turn to faith. They turn to ephemeral truths that they simply "know" that provide them with a basis to move on with their lives and confront terrible things. It can be powerful and a force for incredible good, but can also lead to terrible misunderstandings and occasional, but dramatically destructive inflexibility.

Hope Powered- These are people who, in times of desperation or when seeking definitions of themselves or others, turn to hope. These people either cannot, or try very hard not to see the world as black and white. For motivation for their actions they look for probabilities of success, not a certainty that everything will be okay, but a hope that everything will be okay. This leaves people who run on hope very vulnerable in times of crisis. When their hopes fail them, they may change their beliefs about the situation quite easily and succumb to despair. However, being able to change their beliefs on the fly is a huge advantage when they need to adapt to a new situation.

I fall into the hope powered category myself, and sometimes I wonder if it's the sole reason I consider myself non-binary at all. I think I'm 80% certain that I'm actually female now and to people who run on faith that sounds ridiculous. They have a tendency to do things like asking you to look for that fundamental deeper truth about yourself that you turn to in times of desperation and... Well obviously I don't have one of those for anything.

I think it leads to some conflict within and outside of the community. Obviously there are deeply religious people who destructively hate people like us because they turn to faith when even tiny pieces of their world view are confronted, but those seem to be extreme examples.

I actually had no solid guiding evidence that I was a girl (aside from dysphoria and a general feeling) before someone brilliant on the forum pointed out that through all my deliberations I was hoping I was female and that was really solid evidence that I was.

What do you guys think about this? Do you have conflicts of hope vs faith within the trans community?

I m not sure wich category i m in , i v had both i think , and doubt , and it made me feel that cis womens are lucky not having to deal with that , that feelings and toughs couldnt take their body away , it would be there watever mental state theyr in , i kinda from the start often wondered if i wasnt mentaly ill as my environement would suggest at times , wich was making me try to understand myself to try to verify , wich i was hoping at times wasnt true, that its not a mental illness ,, sometime i see faith as a bulkwark against the influence of others regarding this issues .

I think others around me outside see me in either of those, much more than I see myself in either way.?

I see myself as a combination of both..?

I try very hard, even though I sometimes fail, to be balanced in how I see things, and handle depression, etc..

I know that the maleness in me handles things through tension, and deals with my bad times in that way, while my femaleness let's much of my adversity flow past me, and through me, with much less harm..

So I tend to think my male is more faith based, and my female is more hope based..  Usually though, I feel quite balanced and reasonably confident I'm dealing with things in the best ways..

And so what animates our daily doings eh?  I am a humanist and prefer confidence born of empirical evidence.  Still, how we feel is not easy to quantify or qualify in a formula of proofs.  I also have no quarrel with people of faith and hope who respect other ways of being real.  There really is room for all of us  

Quote from: Mark3 on November 02, 2014, 03:04:27 PM
I see myself as a combination of both..?

I think it's fair to say that all dichotomies are false, just like generalities   

I don't understand dichotomy.   What is it...

I am of deep faith, but it's relationally driven.  And I am full and passionate non binary.

Religiosity is much different than being wired into God.

I think we have both here with no issues.  Divisions between groups are useless here, we have too much at stake.

Blessings

Satinjoy

Quote from: Satinjoy on November 02, 2014, 08:02:13 PM
I don't understand dichotomy.   What is it...

: dichotomies
a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.
"a rigid dichotomy between science and mysticism"

who better than trans people to transcend an epistemological dichotomy?  We are capable of so much growth.... 

Quote from: Tessa James on November 02, 2014, 11:32:15 PM
who better than trans people to transcend an epistemological dichotomy?  We are capable of so much growth....

That we find ourselves here is pretty good evidence of transcendence don't you think?  I don't think hope and faith need be a dichotomy.  I am an engineer and work in a science institution.  I believe in causation and evidence, but I have faith in the power of the human spirit to bring leaps of imagination to intractable problems.  I am a girl, but I spent a lifetime trying to live as a man.  It took a leap of faith for me to recognize that it was not only possible  it necessary for me to find a way to discover my bliss.

To seek authenticity is to believe it is possible.  To have faith that I am neither mad, nor wrong.  To have the courage to have hope.  To live a transcendent life.

There is no distinct line for me.  As with most things human, it is not binary, there is no correct and preferred path.  There is only the journey, and that turns out to be enough.

Slalom,

Julie

i'm an optimistic realist.

i've stopped hoping. in the end it's just the same as wishing.
if you have two hands, spit in one hand and wish in the other. which hand do you got most in...?
nothing will ever happen unless i do it myself, so there's no point in sitting on a chair hoping.
did that in childhood, did it ever get me anything? nope, it didn't.

i do have faith. in god. but that only matters for how i relate to other people, and my hopes for the afterlife.
has very little to do with succeeding in life. or getting all the material goods that i want.
faith in humanity is something i don't have. most people just aren't good enough.

i'm a realist. i don't go around thinking that hope and faith can change the world.
if the mountain won't come to me, then i will have to go to the mountain.
if i have any business on top of that mountain, that is. if not, why bother with it in the first place.
realism also helps a whole lot against my own brain when it decides to malfunction.
there is no evidence at all that the sky will fall onto my head just because i didn't do absolutely everything i think have to do today.
so when i'm anxious for no good reason, i just reason with myself. it works.
faith and hope are funny things that can mess with one's head if they aren't used with care. realism is a good medicine against the negative side effects.
the way i see it.

but despite being realistic about things, i'm also overly optimistic.
even in my darkest times, i never let go of the belief that things can get a whole lot better if i can just figure out how to make that happen.
i was also firm in my belief that i wasn't even halfway to the bottom.
it's never so bad that it can't get worse.
only pessimists go around thinking that they've hit the bottom of all misery. how disappointed must they not be every time they're proven wrong...?

but this was about communication between people with hope and people with faith.
i do hope a whole lot. like that my daughter won't ever be sexually abused or assaulted in any way.
but that's because it's something i can't affect in any way.
i also have a lot of faith. just not in humans. i can't even trust myself, so there's no point.
i still believe however, that nothing is impossible in this world.
nothing can ever be proved to be impossible.
how many don't you think called jules verne's book unrealistic back in his time?
"we all know..."
nah, we can't have any faith in even science. what they think is impossible today will be the only thinkable solution tomorrow.

my only fault seems to be my optimism.
makes it very difficult for me to communicate with pessimists.
"it's too difficult," they say.
and i can only sigh, because they haven't even tried yet.

Taka basically just said everything I was about to write, so thank you for saving me the effort hun ♥︎*Hugs*♥︎

Haha.. So true..!

If we all were back in school, I'd offer Taka my lunch money to write my homwork..!!

I'm pretty sure I run on darkness

Great question, Karen. Ties into what's going on in my life.

I'm holding out hope that someday I'll meet a life partner who accepts and cherishes me for exactly who I am. I know such people exists, but that doesn't help unless I meet them. They are few and far between, so I'll need to meet A LOT of people before I come across someone who would be a good match for me.

In that way, I run on hope.

I keep running across people who say stuff like, "it'll happen when you're least expecting it", as if the world will provide me with what I want. Those, I would imagine, are faith-based people who have a deep belief that there is some sort of plan for all of us.

I'm finding it very frustrating to listen to those sorts of messages.

i was going to say that if we were back in school, there'd be no way i'd be writing anyone's homework. i barely even wrote my own.
but then i started thinking, if i were back in school now, with all the experience i've had since then... maybe i'd have a whole lot more fun writing my homework.
or criticizing bad text books, the teacher's teaching methods etc...
would be fun to try high school again now.

From Taka

i'm an optimistic realist.

i've stopped hoping. in the end it's just the same as wishing.

faith in humanity is something i don't have. most people just aren't good enough.

but despite being realistic about things, i'm also overly optimistic.
even in my darkest times, i never let go of the belief that things can get a whole lot better if i can just figure out how to make that happen.
i was also firm in my belief that i wasn't even halfway to the bottom.
it's never so bad that it can't get worse.
only pessimists go around thinking that they've hit the bottom of all misery. how disappointed must they not be every time they're proven wrong...?

my only fault seems to be my optimism.
makes it very difficult for me to communicate with pessimists.
"it's too difficult," they say.
and i can only sigh, because they haven't even tried yet.



Taka,
You actually do my homework - you make me think and I give you thanks for that.   How does the above differ from hope?  Cannot hope be grounded in reality?  One of the things that makes people interesting and unique is the ability to project, to imagine a future that does not yet exist.  To imagine a future that is better than to day is optimistic,  but Is it not also hopeful?

If I could not imagine myself whole and connected; if I did not against all rationality, have hope that Julie could be made real, I would be dead.  Those times when I have lost faith and abandoned hope are the times when death became inviting, and becomes an answer for my fears.  It is people that pull me through those times.  They are good enough -  They have the power to connect to even the lost

For me, it seems that to hope requires action, it is a transitive verb; to wish is to desire without a plan and often sans hope and faith.  I am the person that I am because I believed that I could find the path even in the darkness, but I could only look for it because I found the strength to try within my heart.  That strength was hope.

Love,
Julie

And then there are those of us who have neither hope nor faith, but just keep plodding along because even stopping doesn't seem like an option.  Things will get better or they won't, though, based on past experience, "won't" seems more likely.

And, yeah:

Quote from: Taka on November 03, 2014, 05:11:07 AM
it's never so bad that it can't get worse.