This is about more then just that, but I'm wondering if anyone else has been through this particular struggle. I'll try to explain it briefly for context, but it is really THE most significant things holding me personally back from starting hormones (which my therapist and doctor are ok with me starting now). This is my personal experience, and what I'm saying is not me saying "this is HOW the world is", I'm saying it's reality to ME to date and I'm having trouble comming to terms with it.

Basically I did the whole super-masculine job's I could find route to 'fix' myself after graduating. I was a Navy Diver, commercial diver, EMT and amatuer kickboxer for my 20's. The start of it all though was my time in the service. Women were just starting to be allowed in certain jobs in 99 when I joined, and there was not a single woman in training I met that was capable of doing everything required of them physically. I met some very strong and athletic women, but at the core of it they could not and it was destructive to everything around it. My division in UCT (underwater construction teams, the brother of underwater demolitions which is the SEALS) training was all men, but our brother division had 2 girls. Every morning when you're out running trails, getting cold and wet, rolling around sand dunes carrying logs/doing pull-ups ect... well they can only push your division as hard as the weakest members. Those members where the women. Not only did their division have easier workouts, the women also took zero turns carrying the log/rocks/rope ect. (team building basically, give them something uttterly exhausting to do and have them have to trade off and help).

Every day they got back half the men would be demanding the go... after all they came here to be the best of the best and the girls were holding them back. The other half were the white-knight types that would defend them, take double turns running with the log and the like. They were all at each others throats, nobody got along..... they were a wreck top to bottom and the girls had NO idea how much sexual tension there was surrounding them being there working out in wet clothing with the boys.... (honestly, half the white-knight types probably just thought they had a "shot"). None of them were able to focus on their own training as they were all in some way paying attention to that "situation"... It was horrible.

There also was an EMT crew at the smaller city fire dept I worked at for awhile that had 2 women on it. There was a time a morbidly obese man whose elevator broke at his appt and he took the stairs, went into respiratory arrest, and the girls couldn't get him on the dolly and down. They had to call a second crew, ours, to come move him for them.... he honestly could have died simply due to them not being capable of moving him. This particular case was worse because after the fact they did not want to split into different crews afterward, as they were proud of their "womens" response team bit... (they were honestly very good emt's skill and care-wise). It was a BIG deal, and they threw the sexism bit in everyones face.

So thats it in a nutshell... I have story after story from the service, but I think I've rambled enough. So its a HUGE problem to me in every way. I love and respect women on so many levels, but I have 17 years of work and gym experience that makes me feel like such a trash human being for how I FEEL about women in a very specific environment...... one which I could very well stay close to occupationally during/after transition....

I'm sorry for the confusion I have over this. Are you Mtf and having these thoughts? I really don't know if you could have a successful transition at this point if you are. You are basically talking about the sex you want to become if I read this right. My thoughts of female emergency services workers (which I retired from after 28 years) is now where near yours. I had only positive experiences with them and had my life directly saved twice by female partners. Does your Therapist know you have these feelings? If so I am sure he would delay hormones until this could be worked out. Please don't take any of this wrong or argumentative, but this has me confused tremendously. 

I can understand where you are coming from - for a number of years I had a lot of antipathy, anger and even a degree of hatred towards women, not necessarily for the reasons you outlined above but it existed all the same. I knew it was wrong but I couldn't shake the emotions and it stemmed from the feeling that despite being a woman I was excluded from being one. Pretty petty I know, but there was a time where I had no sympathy or time for the misogyny and violence that many women faced. And yet the flip side was that deep down I knew I really did care with every fibre of my being, I was just being petulant and selfish and stupid. It took a bit of time to work through, and testosterone in my system didn't help much, it powered my sexuality in ways that made me deeply ashamed and emotionally impotent. I guess what I'm saying is that those kind of feelings can change, especially if you don't believe in them in the first place. It took a lot of self-examination and facing up to some pretty evident truths (HRT and transition helped too of course) but I did turn it around.

Sorry if its confusing. I'm simply saying I'm a man who's been wrestling with transitioning my entire adult life. I used the emotional closeness of those jobs as a replacement for relationships because I felt like a fraud as a male dating. During those jobs though I had some bad experiences with specific women that are really hurting my ability to follow through with what I believe I should be doing. Again I'm not looking to start a discussion on the underlying topic at all (I know how it sounds) but hoping to find others who transitioned who had a few negative opinions  going in (as opposed to the often seen ideas that after transition most of life will be fixed).

Grace thank you so much for yours. I would guess maybe someone who had dated a girl and it went south horribly might be able to understand... that was about all I could come up with off the top of my head. I think just knowing some others can relate but were able to get through it is a relief.

Perhaps you should try a different therapist, or psychiatrist?

I had to look up misogynist, as I wasn't quite sure what it meant. Apparently it means a hatred or dislike of women. That doesn't seem to be quite what you are saying, more like you feel women are inferior? I'll go with that, since I've no idea what to say for the other.

I don't think saying men are better than women in your experience is a very useful way of looking at things, even if its true. Its a pretty narrow slice of life you're describing, and not representative of the typical human experience. And I'm sure there's plenty of women that are better than you are - more intelligent, better at business, better at raising a family, more valued career, richer, better looking, and so on. Are they better people than you are? Are they somehow inferior? I don't think it makes much sense.

For me the idea women are somehow inferior to men is a cultural thing, and its a hangover from our past (at least where I live). Its what you choose to believe, and I choose "equal but different".

But for all of that, even if you can't change your feeling perhaps you can try to just accept it and move on? Move down in status perhaps, but be happy?

Have you seen this YouTube transition video, by Sona Avedian (who's a member here). She was a US Marine before transitioning.



Probably a bit off topic, but since you're into Kickboxing perhaps you have come across the biographical movie "Beautiful Boxer" about transgender Thai kickboxer Nong Toom. I thought it was a great movie and quite inspiring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beautiful_Boxer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinya_Charoenphol

So whats your point?
Women are not as strong as men?

This isn't breaking news. Unless your goal as a female would be lugging obese men around or joining the marines then what is the issue? I am sure you have had plenty of interactions with women in your life where they were perfectly competent at what they were doing. Knowing women are weaker doesn't make you a misogynist it is a fact. Thinking because women are not as strong as men they are useless at everything does not make you a misogynist it makes you a moron. So either way you should be ok?

Oh and I am pretty sure you have also had some bad experiences with men during your life. So with your logic I gotta ask why you bein a man right now then? Cause your bad experiences with women are supposedly stoppin you do that. Does it not cut both ways? Or is it actually just not important?

PS Only the deluded think transitioning will magically fix all life problems so don't be worryin about that.

Quote from: Soon2bShannon on November 07, 2014, 02:39:27 AM
Sorry if its confusing. I'm simply saying I'm a man who's been wrestling with transitioning my entire adult life. I used the emotional closeness of those jobs as a replacement for relationships because I felt like a fraud as a male dating. During those jobs though I had some bad experiences with specific women that are really hurting my ability to follow through with what I believe I should be doing. Again I'm not looking to start a discussion on the underlying topic at all (I know how it sounds) but hoping to find others who transitioned who had a few negative opinions  going in (as opposed to the often seen ideas that after transition most of life will be fixed).

Grace thank you so much for yours. I would guess maybe someone who had dated a girl and it went south horribly might be able to understand... that was about all I could come up with off the top of my head. I think just knowing some others can relate but were able to get through it is a relief.

I get what you've said and there shouldn't be any confusion, it's simple enough for anyone to understand that cis men and cis women are not and never will be equally matched physically. I watched two female EMT's respond to the calls for help by a morbidly obese woman across the street. They couldn't get her on the gurney and had to call the fire department for the heavy lifters to show up. Meanwhile the woman went into cardiac arrest. Her kidney function never returned and eventually she died. It wasn't the EMT women's fault that the fat lady ate herself to death, but they were obviously not physically able to deal with it and should have at least been pared on a team with men.

As for the military aspect I wouldn't have been able to deal with a woman in my squad during the Vietnam War and suddenly see her lower jaw disappear as an enemy bullet cleaved it away. If I got hit I'd want someone who could drag my ass out of the field of fire. As for those gals who want to serve in intensely close quarters with male horn dogs in the submarine service, I can only scratch my head and wonder how ridiculously far the mind numbing PC bs is going to take us.

Sorry, but your statements are misogynistic. I'm not saying you are. But it sounds that way from just that. O'm 5'5 and 123 lbs and have been tiny my whole life. Never grew after 15. I tried to join the football team at 13 with my friends, I played two snaps (one was the kick-off) and they didn't even let me scrimmage. I was treated like glass. All my friends would show off their bruises like battlescars, and I was still as delicate looking and unbruised as a girl can get. When I tried to join they laughed and throught it was a joke and pointed to the cheerleader tryouts. They really thought I was a tomboy. In gym, they whispered in my ear I could do push-ups the "girl" way.

So, having me on that squad would have been just as bad as those women. But there are others. This doesn't mean you can't transition. I told you this story to help you, so you could see that its not women, per se, but weaker ones. There are plenty of physically strong women. If you follow the news, know who has had the most success against ISIS? Kurdish women soldiers. They're fierce (and my heroes). You might want to think of a new career if it's that bad though. If they have that attytood towards women, I can't imagine a trans woman's treatment.

Sorry if that was harsh. If you feel you shoudl transition, do it. Everyone makes mistakes. In fact, owning up to it and coming to terms with those thoughts is really mature. It's commendable! 

But to another poster: whose to say that the Male EMTs wouldn't have had the same problem?

I'm very confused why you bring this to this forum. what does your transition have to do with anyone you have mentioned

So now we go on the attack because soon2bshannon has different real life experiences and is sharing her heart felt feelings that the rest can't possibly relate to? 

I don't get it... it's just biology here that says that women only have about 75% of the lift capacity of men when normalized for body weight. (Which usually means 50%-60% because women tend to weigh less too.)

Why is that their fault? It's not like they decided to be less muscular. It's just biology. I don't see how you can fault them for not being as strong as men.

Testosterone is the muscle-building hormone. And having been on HRT for two years, I can tell you, yes, you're going to lose your strength too if you get on it. I was never that strong in the first place, and therefore HATED when people expected me to lift things for them just because I was male, so I honestly can't relate at all to this mindset, I always hated guys who thought that their physical strength somehow made them so great. But seriously, if you can't handle being a member of the less-muscular sex, and view masculine physical strength as such a status symbol, like your worth as a human being is somehow less if you can't lift as much weight, then I'm not sure how you'd handle having to accept that there's some things that physically you can't do as well as a man.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but seriously, being less strong is a fact that you are going to have to face if you transition. So if you're going to do it, you have to accept that reality.

When I was much younger, I was on the nursing staff at a psychiatric hospital. We got a new nurse on staff, a young, pretty woman, petite. She was really good at the medical stuff, some of us wondered why she wasn't in med school, yet the major concern of many of the other nurses (male and female) was, "she's smart as a whip, but... can she lift?" So, Soon2Be, your remarks concerning the physical abilities of your female teammates are not without precedent, nor would I consider those feelings to be misogynistic.

Females, on average, do not have the same upper body strength that males do. Nothing wrong with that. I have lost some upper body strength during the course of my HRT, and expect to lose more as I progress, but it's not about what I look like or if I can still lift the couch with one arm when I vacuum, it's about how I feel. If the girl inside wants out, you have to give her her head. You have to let her out. She needs to breathe, and I am in a much better place for having done just that. So, yeah, there are some things I can't do, or can't do as well anymore, but I don't care, because I am becoming who I should be.

You need to think about how you feel about yourself, what will make you feel more whole, and how you may grow into that. These things take time to sort out.

How about this as an alternate for the question. Lets take a lesbian, who is very direct and open in communicating, gets the run-around from a number of potential dates. She is frustrated that "women" just can't tell her they aren't interested, like she would, but yet still prides herself in being a woman. There is contradiction in feeling and identity, also a bit of "theres a fine line between love and hate". I was just wondering how it worked out for others who had transitioned who may have had similar issues.

I have seen that transition AnonyMs, it is one of my favorites! And TY for the support Shantel, I may be a different generation but feel we may have a good deal in common.

I understood making the post that it would be hard to seperate my personal feelings from the overriding situations. I am not looking at starting a debate on the situation, only gave it as context to how I feel myself. I know I don't view women as inferior, but at the same time acknowledge differences. It has been a rough spot as Carrie mentioned with all my career paths placing a premium on physical strength. It is one that I've gone over and over with my therapist and doctor. I for years thought a doctor would not take me serious as trans if I didn't want to become hyper-feminine, as I am more of a cross-fit type girl. I plan on being the strongest version of myself as possible no matter how the world see's me.

So how have the rest of you handled outlooks your previous life experience gave you that you aren't happy with?

I do crossfit, kickboxing and endurance running. I give my best in whatever I do and must say that I haven't lost that much in my 3 sports.
There is not enought girls that do kick boxing where I live to separate men and women. Guys were "treating me like glass" as someone said before but well when I kicked their asses a few times they gave up on that. I can't say that I lost strenght really... I sure lift less but in ratios to my weight lost I lift about the same. I never saw a guy who weight 120 pounds lifting about 260 pounds on close body like me and a bunch of others girls. I will never be able to lift what I what lifting before as without T I won't be able to build enought muscle mass to weight 160 pounds without fat. I can't say that I became weak, it's different.
Less brutal power but a bunch of endurance, while running espicially, harder to sprint but easier to maintain a steady speed.

Once again I'm disgusted by the vitriol we break out when new forum members speak their minds.

What I'm understanding OP to ask is how to reconcile negative feelings about women (some of them based on actual experience) with a gender identity that is driving her toward transition.

Isn't that a legitimate question?

I'm especially appalled that asking that question is taken as a sign of OP's unsuitability for transition.

There are many cisgender women who are uncomfortable with the physical characteristics of their own gender. There are many cis males that are uncomfortable with some of the negative aspects of being male.

I hope no one would say that they're not likely to successfully live as their gender. But somehow when a trans person says this we'll question whether they could successfully transition.

Quote from: Soon2bShannon on November 07, 2014, 12:15:13 PM
So how have the rest of you handled outlooks your previous life experience gave you that you aren't happy with?

Yes. I've been very critical about females' preoccupation with looks, skittishness about intimacy, and overall unwillingness to be assertive. My thoughts on the first two have changed considerably since my transition. Having seen them from the other side, I find myself doing the same thing and now better understand the reasons. I still find the third bothersome.

 
I'll make this very clear - this was a reasonable question. The ToS also make it clear that members will not react personally to posts or with personal attacks, if it offends you report it but make sure you explain why - simply saying "offensive" won't cut it. Thanks.

I identify with your OP as being a "stage" of transition.  I think we all "look" for
reasons to avoid the necessity of transition, and in the early stages, like stages
of grief-"denial" is a phase.  I don't think you're denying your gender condition, but
you are probably trying to rationalize avoidance.  I think as you proceed down the
road of full and unequivocal acceptance, then the aspects of female existence which
you now find unacceptable may become irrelevant as  you desire to experience and
embrace other more prominent characteristics of femininity more than physical strength
or other characteristics you've known in your "manly" past.  At that stage, the concerns
you've expressed will likely become less imperative for your happiness.  I think that is
a truly beautiful part of the entire transition process-our ability to accept and embrace
those gender changes that make our lives complete and result in the ultimate state of
greatest happiness and contentment for each of us individually.  If the driving force
is so strong that you are willing to forgo the concerns to obtain your contentment, then you
have resolved your problem and reconciled your doubts, but its always your sole choice.
Sorry to be soo windy and wordy, best wishes for your life!

Quote from: Shantel on November 07, 2014, 11:01:13 AM
So now we go on the attack because soon2bshannon has different real life experiences and is sharing her heart felt feelings that the rest can't possibly relate to? 

Quote from: suzifrommd on November 07, 2014, 12:53:16 PM
Once again I'm disgusted by the vitriol we break out when new forum members speak their minds.

What I'm understanding OP to ask is how to reconcile negative feelings about women (some of them based on actual experience) with a gender identity that is driving her toward transition.

Isn't that a legitimate question?

I'm especially appalled that asking that question is taken as a sign of OP's unsuitability for transition.

No one was attacking at all. The question itself was very confusing to many of us. I personally got the feeling the OP had a very poor attitude towards women so that begged the question "How could you have these feelings and have a successful transition"? As more information became available things started to make more sense to some of the OPs reasoning and feelings. When people ask delicate questions so early in a topic to figure out what is wrong those are not attacks, they are aimed at trying to find out what is going on. If these comments and questions came later, yes, it could be construed as an attack. So please, those of you far smarter than me please have patience while I try to understand. Don't be so quick to judge our questions as attacks. 

As an MTF transsexual, I must confess a profound misandry (hatred or dislike of men or boys).

I'd really like to be a woman, but it's more important that I not be categorized as a man.  Men can be useful if you need a war fought, a ditch dug, or a car repaired, but I don't want to be one.

I don't think men are attractive and I wish with all my heart that I was never declared to be male.  I feel vastly inferior to women, but I'm working on it.

Randi

Quote from: Soon2bShannon on November 07, 2014, 12:15:13 PM


I understood making the post that it would be hard to seperate my personal feelings from the overriding situations. I am not looking at starting a debate on the situation, only gave it as context to how I feel myself. I know I don't view women as inferior, but at the same time acknowledge differences. It has been a rough spot as Carrie mentioned with all my career paths placing a premium on physical strength. It is one that I've gone over and over with my therapist and doctor. I for years thought a doctor would not take me serious as trans if I didn't want to become hyper-feminine, as I am more of a cross-fit type girl. I plan on being the strongest version of myself as possible no matter how the world see's me.

So how have the rest of you handled outlooks your previous life experience gave you that you aren't happy with?

If it's of any help to you, I am a former paratrooper and international level rower and have always enjoyed pushing myself hard physically, almost to masochistic levels at certain points in my life. I can also state that there are still no females in the elite unit I served in and there are unlikely to be any time soon for all the reasons you mention, there are somethings females are less well equipped to do than males.

Fully transitioned today, I still enjoy hard physical exercice, leaving lot's of guys standing BTW,  but the masochism has gone out of it completely, maybe because I'm just a lot happier with myself finally living as a woman.

However when I started HRT, I immediately noticed a fall off in my physical performances, losing almost 10% on the Concept II rowing machine I use for maintaining basic fitness in just a few months and a good deal more since. After years of effort maintaining my performance, that was a bit traumatic at first but finally I just said, to hell with it and let go. Stated otherwise, my priorities changed quite a bit through transition.

The fact is, transitioning requires letting go of quite a lot of things to finally allow the female you emerge. All things equal elsewhere, this inevitably includes part of your physical  strenght. On the plus side though you get to be you and nothing prevents you from being a very athletic woman, bien au contraire, athletic women are mostly very attractive. 
Wishing you all the best!
Donna