Hey,

So the thing I find myself wondering the most these days is, how do I tell whether I'm just butch or actually trans? At some brief period during high school I used to identify as butch, probably because that's what people kept labeling me as, not that I minded it, but I stopped identifying that way because I just didn't look like it (my mom felt the need, and still does, to make sure I look feminine) and it was just weird and embarrassing identifying as something and looking like something different.

Have any of you guys thought through this when you were trying to figure everything out (or still are)? And how'd you end up deciding you we're trans? What made you think you were this and not that? (But some butch lesbians get top surgery too don't they? So what does that make them?)

Thanks 

I tried a few different labels on when trying to figure out who I was. Eventually I found one that fit.

It's not common, but I've heard of some cis women, including butch lesbians, getting top surgery.
I've also heard of at least one person who initially considered themselves a butch lesbian, got top surgery, and after further reflection realized they were actually a trans man. It's probably best to take the approach of figuring out what you need, and doing that, rather than getting hung up on labels. If your chest makes you miserable, it's your right to have it changed to your liking, that sort of thing.

For me there were/are a ton of things that wouldn't match up to "butch woman". Some of them are comically obvious in hindsight, but somehow I missed the clue at the time. Things like:

- Wanting a deep voice and a beard
- Being incredibly irritated by being addressed/referred to as female, but elated and/or relieved when addressed as male
- Intense sense of not belonging in women's spaces, but belonging in men's (this is actually how I first started buying men's underwear - I couldn't bring myself to go into the ladies' department anymore, felt like a huge creep walking in there, but my only concern going into the men's was fear of being questioned or told I was "in the wrong section")
- Always avoiding ever referring to myself as a girl or a woman because it felt like a lie

Butch lesbians probably also don't wish to have male-typical genitalia, so in my case there's a big clue. Not everyone who transitions F to M is bothered by their downstairs, though, Buck Angel for instance.

Again, it might be more useful to you to focus on figuring out what you need, rather than focusing on labels. Unfortunately sometimes people can get so hung up on a label, that they might think they "have" to do this or that. Like some trans men thinking they "have" to get bottom surgery whether they actually want to or not, otherwise people might not take them seriously as a man. Stuff like that.

I was never a lesbian BUT for a short time in high school I identified with the butch female part but mostly tom boy bisexual. Then later on in life switched to genderfluid but that didn't last too long either until I could find I could transition into something that made me much more comfortable identifying with which was male/transman

I never went by the term butch. It doesn't feel right and I know I'm not a female trying to look like a dude, I am a dude. Also I've seen some Stud/butch youtube videos and some butches said that at the end of the day they're all just women trying to get what they want. And I've heard some said they take pride in being able to pleasure/treat a woman better then a man. So that's another hint that alot don't see themselves as male/men but just to show their "sense" of masculinity. So I think the difference between a butch or trans, is that with trans you actually feel that you're male inside,  and Butches pretend/ just look /present that they're male but feel that they're still a woman at the end of the day. That's how I see it.

So Blink pretty much covered it.

Quote from: darkblade on November 12, 2014, 07:34:45 AM
(But some butch lesbians get top surgery too don't they? So what does that make them?)

It makes them a person who doesn't want to have breasts . Like Blink said, it can be helpful to step away from the labels and boxes. They can provide a sense of "belonging", and I for one are very happy that I finally found the trans* box where I feel I belong, for the first time ever! But often the boxes complicate things -- e.g. when they make us question "can I really be this if I don't want that?"

Carefully take one step at a time and see how it feels . But don't let the labels limit what you feel you can or cannot do.

Quote from: adrian on November 12, 2014, 10:04:34 AM
It makes them a person who doesn't want to have breasts . Like Blink said, it can be helpful to step away from the labels and boxes. They can provide a sense of "belonging", and I for one are very happy that I finally found the trans* box where I feel I belong, for the first time ever! But often the boxes complicate things -- e.g. when they make us question "can I really be this if I don't want that?"

Carefully take one step at a time and see how it feels . But don't let the labels limit what you feel you can or cannot do.

Exactly, labels are potentially useful or potentially a pitfall. Labels can be useful to quickly convey complex things about ourselves. But getting too hung up on it, trying to find or fit into a label just to get that sense of belonging, is putting the cart before the horse. After all, don't people transition because trying to be someone one isn't, doesn't work? But if you focus on what you need, focus on you, labels come later all on their own. Or not, and not having a label doesn't preclude "belonging" somewhere. Plenty of people on Susan's eschew labels.

Also, "It makes them a person who doesn't want to have breasts" - just wanted to say, I like that. Spot on.

Thanks guys this is really helpful 

Quote from: blink on November 12, 2014, 08:54:32 AM
For me there were/are a ton of things that wouldn't match up to "butch woman". Some of them are comically obvious in hindsight, but somehow I missed the clue at the time. Things like:

- Wanting a deep voice and a beard
- Being incredibly irritated by being addressed/referred to as female, but elated and/or relieved when addressed as male
- Intense sense of not belonging in women's spaces, but belonging in men's (this is actually how I first started buying men's underwear - I couldn't bring myself to go into the ladies' department anymore, felt like a huge creep walking in there, but my only concern going into the men's was fear of being questioned or told I was "in the wrong section")
- Always avoiding ever referring to myself as a girl or a woman because it felt like a lie

Butch lesbians probably also don't wish to have male-typical genitalia, so in my case there's a big clue. Not everyone who transitions F to M is bothered by their downstairs, though, Buck Angel for instance.

These days I find myself wanting to be trans (is this weird? I find this weird) rather than anything else. A little worried this might be biasing my thought process while I figure all this stuff out.. I know its not the best thing to try and label yourself, but right now I feel like I want to know "what" I am and kind of have a name for it, you know? I think of genderqueer/non-binary sometimes but then I realize that it makes no sense because I don't think I'm feminine in the least..

I guess the points you mention sort of apply to me, but maybe not as strongly?
- I don't remember me explicitly wanting a deeper voice, but I know I hate it when my voice goes high and I always try to go as low as possible when I try to sing. Try, I can't sing probably because my voice will never go as low as I want it to without T. I've always had a decent amount of facial hair that I need to shave anyways, so I guess I've never really thought about it much but sometimes I've wanted to leave it and see how long/thick it manages to grow.

- I've only begun to notice this happening recently, so I can't really tell. A couple of weeks ago my dad referred to me as a woman in a text and I got so angry I was about to cry (very unlike me). There are only a couple of other instances where I've noticed this. I don't really know about being addressed as a guy, but when I was in middle school and all over the internet on forums and such, I think I might've said I was a guy. Don't remember really. I used to play runescape and my character is a guy. Dunno whether that says anything. Oh, when I was on Flickr back in high school my avatar was a silhouette kinda thing with my hair looking like a guy's. Got mistaken for a guy by several people and I think I corrected them but it made me happy.

- Don't know about belonging in men's spaces. Arab society doesn't really allow for much exploration in that aspect, which is kinda what's making it hard.. To comment on the subject of underwear though, I think I look pretty amusing when I'm dragged to lingerie shops, I just stand there awkwardly and want to leave as soon as possible. Sport bra shopping I don't mind so much, I guess mostly because I don't want stuff bouncing around when I work out. I guess I always feel very out of place when I'm at an all-girls party or something like that. But most of the social situations I'm in outside of college are all female anyways.

- I mostly say I'm female, sometimes I might use "girl," but I'd never say I'm a woman. There's something about the word that makes me feel weird and I never want to be called a woman. I mean I can't really deny that I'm biologically female, can I.. I wanna try out male pronouns but with my hair being the way it is and not being able to get a haircut for two more months, I'd feel really weird trying to go by male pronouns at this point.

Also, I hate the word lesbian. I just say that I'm gay.

I feel like I write too much. Helps me think through stuff I guess.

I've never been a lesbian although I have been mistaken for one even while I was dating a guy.
I've never been butch. At least, I've never associated myself with that term. I may have a stereotypical view of what it means since I don't actually know.
I do, however, want a flat chest, a male shape, a penis, etc. I want to be physically male. My brain tells me I should be. To me, that's why I'm a trans man. Some women may want a flat chest, but I so far haven't met any who want to be physically male.

Hey,

there's no such thing as writing too much It can really help to gain clarity, so write away!

Quote from: darkblade on November 12, 2014, 10:38:19 AM
Thanks guys this is really helpful 

These days I find myself wanting to be trans (is this weird? I find this weird) rather than anything else. A little worried this might be biasing my thought process while I figure all this stuff out.. I know its not the best thing to try and label yourself, but right now I feel like I want to know "what" I am and kind of have a name for it, you know? I think of genderqueer/non-binary sometimes but then I realize that it makes no sense because I don't think I'm feminine in the least..

I can totally relate - and it's decidedly not weird to want to be trans! For me it's about having the feeling I belong somewhere, about having a frame of reference for how I feel and for what I experience.

And I can also relate to the fact that it might bias how I think. But for me, this quickly turns into questioning along the lines of "am I really trans ... when I'm currently not desperate for bottom surgery..." and so on. I know this is a slightly different aspect and not the focus of this thread, but it's one of those things that appear to happen when we "pack" our boxes or labels with too much baggage (sorry, that's not a metaphor that works too well ).

I was never a lesbian I was always a man even my cousin and my friends even said they always knew I was a man. Its not about wanting to be anything I already am who I say I am its just a certain feeling you get I 've always know I was a boy since I was 5 cuz thats when I knew there was a difference. Everybody excepts me for who I am then again I am a very masculine young man so its easier to see it.

Quote from: darkblade on November 12, 2014, 10:38:19 AM
Thanks guys this is really helpful 

These days I find myself wanting to be trans (is this weird? I find this weird) rather than anything else. A little worried this might be biasing my thought process while I figure all this stuff out.. I know its not the best thing to try and label yourself, but right now I feel like I want to know "what" I am and kind of have a name for it, you know? I think of genderqueer/non-binary sometimes but then I realize that it makes no sense because I don't think I'm feminine in the least..

I guess the points you mention sort of apply to me, but maybe not as strongly?
- I don't remember me explicitly wanting a deeper voice, but I know I hate it when my voice goes high and I always try to go as low as possible when I try to sing. Try, I can't sing probably because my voice will never go as low as I want it to without T. I've always had a decent amount of facial hair that I need to shave anyways, so I guess I've never really thought about it much but sometimes I've wanted to leave it and see how long/thick it manages to grow.

- I've only begun to notice this happening recently, so I can't really tell. A couple of weeks ago my dad referred to me as a woman in a text and I got so angry I was about to cry (very unlike me). There are only a couple of other instances where I've noticed this. I don't really know about being addressed as a guy, but when I was in middle school and all over the internet on forums and such, I think I might've said I was a guy. Don't remember really. I used to play runescape and my character is a guy. Dunno whether that says anything. Oh, when I was on Flickr back in high school my avatar was a silhouette kinda thing with my hair looking like a guy's. Got mistaken for a guy by several people and I think I corrected them but it made me happy.

- Don't know about belonging in men's spaces. Arab society doesn't really allow for much exploration in that aspect, which is kinda what's making it hard.. To comment on the subject of underwear though, I think I look pretty amusing when I'm dragged to lingerie shops, I just stand there awkwardly and want to leave as soon as possible. Sport bra shopping I don't mind so much, I guess mostly because I don't want stuff bouncing around when I work out. I guess I always feel very out of place when I'm at an all-girls party or something like that. But most of the social situations I'm in outside of college are all female anyways.

- I mostly say I'm female, sometimes I might use "girl," but I'd never say I'm a woman. There's something about the word that makes me feel weird and I never want to be called a woman. I mean I can't really deny that I'm biologically female, can I.. I wanna try out male pronouns but with my hair being the way it is and not being able to get a haircut for two more months, I'd feel really weird trying to go by male pronouns at this point.

Also, I hate the word lesbian. I just say that I'm gay.

I feel like I write too much. Helps me think through stuff I guess.

I've lived as butch and lived in the butch/femme community for the last 20 years. 

Here's some information:

1)There is a very large population of butches who do not identify as lesbians, as they do not view themselves as women.  They view butch as a gender.  Many define themselves as third gendered (gender = man, woman, butch, femme, other?).  They may view themselves as female (sex = female, male, intersex).  A small percentage identify as male, but prefer to stay female bodied.  Pretty much every butch I know does not view themselves as a woman.  I always identified as a Transgender Butch because I saw myself as between male and female.  I have never identified as a lesbian because I am not a woman.

2) Many, many butches prefer the pronoun hy (said like he) or the pronoun he.

3) Boxers are the order of the day, I actually don't know any butches who wear women's underwear.
 
4) There are many butches who get, or desire to have top surgery

5) Lots of butches pack 24/7.

6) There is a large percentage of butches who identify as "stone".  These are butches who do not allow their partner to touch their genitals and/or chest because they are uncomfortable with those body parts (but they don't use the term body dysphoria to describe it)

So, when people use the term "butch lesbian" it kind of throws me off.  I only hear that term outside the butch/femme community.  Some butches do identify as women, so they may identify as both butch and as lesbian.


What I don't see in the butch community is:
1) butches wanting facial hair
2)butches wanting/wishing they were born with a bio penis

To me that is sort of the dividing line, and has also been the hold up for me deciding that I should transition for many years.  It was the lack of desire for facial hair and a bio penis that kept me from identifying as FTM/male. 

Being a person who is a part of both communities (20+ years within the butch/femme community and 10 years as a part of the trans community), puts me in a neat spot to view both groups and see their similarities and differences.  It's a very cool vantage point.

So darkblade, I don't know what the hell to tell you!  lol  It took me 15 years until I followed through on the top surgery I wanted and 10 years to decide that I don't need to fit into a neat little box of "male" in order to take testosterone.  Strangely enough, I now hope I can grow lots of facial hair and plan to have metoidioplasty if possible.

I think that blink gave you the best advice when he told you that you should think less in terms of labels and more in terms of what fits for you when it comes to gender.  For me, I found it useful to set aside labels for a minute and decide :

a) Do I want the physical changes that testosterone provides?

b) Do I want to be SEEN as and LIVE as male in my culture/society?

Ask yourself those questions, and skip the labels.

Good luck.

Quote from: darkblade on November 12, 2014, 10:38:19 AM
These days I find myself wanting to be trans (is this weird? I find this weird) rather than anything else. A little worried this might be biasing my thought process while I figure all this stuff out.. I know its not the best thing to try and label yourself, but right now I feel like I want to know "what" I am and kind of have a name for it, you know?

I just wanted to highlight this.  This is what killed me for years (especially the last two or so), but I think that it is a process that can't be rushed.  I so wished it was something that was "clear as day" for me like it was for some other guys.  But, that just isn't the way it was for me.  I sometimes wonder though, if I was born at a later time (like 20 years later), if I would have moved more quickly to knowing that taking T and living as male was right for me (I'm 44).

It is so important to not rush the decision to take testosterone and to transition to living as male.  Take your time even though it is uncomfortable to be in that space of "not knowing".

Ah man.. maybe I'm on the wrong forum 

Quote from: Brett on November 12, 2014, 07:31:00 PM
I think that blink gave you the best advice when he told you that you should think less in terms of labels and more in terms of what fits for you when it comes to gender.  For me, I found it useful to set aside labels for a minute and decide :

a) Do I want the physical changes that testosterone provides?

b) Do I want to be SEEN as and LIVE as male in my culture/society?

Ask yourself those questions, and skip the labels.

Good luck.

I'll definitely take some time to think about this, thanks for your insight Brett!

Quote from: darkblade on November 12, 2014, 10:53:39 PM
Ah man.. maybe I'm on the wrong forum 

I'll definitely take some time to think about this, thanks for your insight Brett!

I'm glad it was helpful.  I will PM you some links to a couple of butch/femme/trans forums.  Since there is a number of people who overlap as butch/trans and even stay in the butch/femme community after transitioning, usually butch/femme forums also have FTM sections.  You may find the sites useful.

Very interesting thread for me, as this too is my dilemma. 

Just a quick thought that some of what is posted makes me think, "Non-binary," which is how I identify. Having identified as a lesbian for over 30 years, I've never been labeled 'butch' and am definitely not stone (RIP Leslie Feinberg). But, I have always preferred and worn men's clothing. Yes, I have women's clothing, largely because of fit, but then they are all very 'classic,' gender neutral. And, I get 'sirred' frequently. I want to have top surgery, but have no interest in bottom surgery. There are desires that might make that make sense, but as long as the surgery is so lousy... nah. And, honestly, here's the real distinction for me. I have no interest - maybe it's my age - in frequenting the men's room, or surrounding myself with "male energy." Yes, if I were 20, or even 30, I might feel differently. But, at this point in my life, the middle feels right. Yes, for me it's about being in the middle, being some of both. I've never seen myself as a transman, though I've known a fair number of transmen. Yet, I knew - for decades - that something wasn't quite right. I was content to just keep going along. Then, when I started to realize there was language to describe my perspective, it all fell into place. Not saying that anyone who posted might ultimately identify as non-binary, but thought I'd throw that into the mix as it certainly feels right to me.

Peace.

This stuff gets complicated... sometimes it's difficult to figure out what's cultural and can be transcended, and what's never going to work for you. Ask yourself this: can you imagine a woman, or a type of woman, that you could really enjoy being? that really FITS who you are on the inside?

For me, the answer was no. But your answer may be different, and you don't want to base this decision on stereotypes. Just because the stereotypical woman isn't you, doesn't mean there isn't a woman out there that IS you.

Quote from: BrotherBen on November 18, 2014, 06:49:46 PM
This stuff gets complicated... sometimes it's difficult to figure out what's cultural and can be transcended, and what's never going to work for you. Ask yourself this: can you imagine a woman, or a type of woman, that you could really enjoy being? that really FITS who you are on the inside?

For me, the answer was no. But your answer may be different, and you don't want to base this decision on stereotypes. Just because the stereotypical woman isn't you, doesn't mean there isn't a woman out there that IS you.

This is an interesting way to put things, I haven't thought of it this way before. Off the top of my head, I think the answer is no. Something for me to think about though...

I'm having lots of trouble with the cultural aspect of things, since I live in a gender segregated society. So although I know that I've never fit in with girls, I have very little to go by in terms of how I fit in as "one of the guys".. Figuring that out isn't going to be particularly easy I think.

Quote from: Jak on November 18, 2014, 05:02:12 PM
Just a quick thought that some of what is posted makes me think, "Non-binary," which is how I identify. Having identified as a lesbian for over 30 years, I've never been labeled 'butch' and am definitely not stone (RIP Leslie Feinberg). But, I have always preferred and worn men's clothing. Yes, I have women's clothing, largely because of fit, but then they are all very 'classic,' gender neutral. And, I get 'sirred' frequently. I want to have top surgery, but have no interest in bottom surgery. There are desires that might make that make sense, but as long as the surgery is so lousy... nah. And, honestly, here's the real distinction for me. I have no interest - maybe it's my age - in frequenting the men's room, or surrounding myself with "male energy." Yes, if I were 20, or even 30, I might feel differently. But, at this point in my life, the middle feels right. Yes, for me it's about being in the middle, being some of both. I've never seen myself as a transman, though I've known a fair number of transmen. Yet, I knew - for decades - that something wasn't quite right. I was content to just keep going along. Then, when I started to realize there was language to describe my perspective, it all fell into place. Not saying that anyone who posted might ultimately identify as non-binary, but thought I'd throw that into the mix as it certainly feels right to me.

I've thought about non-binary, but somehow I don't see it being me. It would certainly complicate my life a lot more to not identify as part of the binary, might even be the reason I'm so dismissive of the whole non-binary thing. Otherwise, what you say applies to me more or less. I just don't think I'd ever feel comfortable in the grey area of things.

"It would certainly complicate my life a lot more to not identify as part of the binary, might even be the reason I'm so dismissive of the whole non-binary thing."

Interesting! For me - probably due to age and stage - identifying as a transman (if I thought it truly fit) would be waaaaay more complicated. If that felt right I'd be there, but, yeah, challenging the whole notion of the binary is where it's at for me. 

Be well!