Quote from: Jill F on November 19, 2014, 02:51:44 PM
If you have a problem with a moderator (and we are just perfectly imperfect human beings like everyone else), report it and/or PM an administrator.  The ToS applies to us as well.

The TOS and then some. There is a higher standard in place for the Staff, I can verify that.

Now I'm scared of TOS 10. Sometimes I need to be provoked in order to think above the fog. Sometimes I need to be prodded. I may need to hear something I don't want to hear but with myself, need to hear. Others may be like me. I don't know. I even try to provoke thinking and self identity. Will this get me in trouble? I never provoke for the sake of arguing though. I never attack anyone.

As for taking posts personally, I never do. So that one doesn't bother me too much. But we are all different. Is an attack saying something that someone else may not agree with? I mean I thank God for Susan and her "house" and love her like a sister. I respect and love the moderators here, thank god for them. And everyone else I love like family. Just a little confused though.

I just hope I never made anyone mad here.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on November 19, 2014, 01:41:31 PM
Hugs and many thanks for all the hard work, Isabell.  I honor the site's moderators for having helped many people.  I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that your response is directed toward me.

I am certainly not accusing anyone of being a dictator.  I never said that and I can't imagine myself doing so.  It's the opposite of what I believe. 

And it would be both a personal attack and a protest, which would violate both old and new TOS.

Which makes it a great example of why I'm confused.  If your response is directed at me, then it's a great example of how two well intentioned people can have a misunderstanding.  And I honestly do not understand how I could have avoided it because I simply did not say that.  And if it's not aimed at me, then I apologize for misunderstanding.  But we're still having a misunderstanding that involves things that seem like TOS violations.  It just goes to show how easily misunderstandings happen.  So it brings me back to my original question:

What should I be doing to avoid getting a TOS violation?

Does that help clarify what I'm asking?

Anyone can reach out to me or any other moderators or administrative staff.

We all are willing to help anyone try and understand if there is a question.

Open forum is never a place for things to be said.

My pm is always open.

Izzy

Quote from: JulieBlair on November 19, 2014, 10:03:41 AM
"Members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack."

To respond aggressively when I or one I care for is disrespected by not being allowed the freedom to express their point of view or when their personal angst is repeatedly met with a pointed and aggressive lack of validation is something I have certainly been guilty of.

If you discuss the issue never the person you shouldn't have any problem, but the safest course is to always report the post and let the staff handle it. When you respond keep the heat out of it. You have seen how I respond to things such as the post-op regret piece or people's rants. Discuss the facts of the person's post without taking it personally. If someone says something that isn't true or out of line. It's not gonna get you in trouble to say that's not correct in my situation here's why. But again keep the heat out of it.

It brings me back to my old favorite the Roadhouse rules...

Quote from: Susan on May 22, 2012, 02:33:24 AMPatrick Swayze: All you have to do is follow three simple rules.
Patrick Swayze: One: never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected.
Patrick Swayze: Two: take it outside (Private message). Never start anything inside the bar (the public areas of the site) unless it's absolutely necessary.
Patrick Swayze: And three: be nice.
Someone else: Come on.
Patrick Swayze: If somebody gets in your face and calls you a ->-bleeped-<-, I want you to be nice.
Someone else: OK.
Patrick Swayze: Ask him to walk, be nice.
Patrick Swayze: If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice.
Patrick Swayze: If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you. And you'll both be nice.
Patrick Swayze: I want you to remember that it's a job.
Patrick Swayze: It's nothing personal.
Someone else: Uh-huh. Being called a ->-bleeped-<- isn't personal?
Patrick Swayze: No. It's two nouns combined to elicit a prescribed response.
Someone else: What if somebody calls my mama a whore?
Patrick Swayze: Is she?
Everyone: (laughter)
Patrick Swayze: I want you to be nice...
Patrick Swayze: ..until it's time to not be nice.
Someone else: Well, how're we supposed to know when that is?
Patrick Swayze: You won't. I'll let you know.

I shared this with staff years ago because being a staff member here is a lot like being a bouncer, just with less physical  violence.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on November 19, 2014, 11:44:54 AM
I'm sure we've all had the experience of saying something well intentioned and being shocked when someone feels like it is a personal attack.  If a user says something they think is constructive and helpful, but a mod/admin mistakes it for a personal attack, is that bannable?  At what point point does it become bannable?  What if a mod or admin were to mistake this good faith, honest question about what the rules mean and how to obey them for a passive aggressive attempt to stage a public protest?

The staff are objective, but can make mistakes. We review all moderator actions, and I have reversed staff actions when needed. If you feel you have been wronged you can contact Cindy or myself and we will review the situation again. I bet that unless it really was an attack, it will never reach this point. The staff are pretty good.

Pretty much as I said in the last section of this post, talk about the issues. Be calm and reasonable in your tone, and no one should mistake one of your posts for an attack.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on November 19, 2014, 11:44:54 AM
This seems especially relevant to me since the stuff I post about tends to be activism related--particularly legislative lobbying, street level campaigning, community organizing, and other topics.  By nature, I talk about things that are going to be controversial and where people are prone to interpret things as personal attacks whenever possible.  I have even written things only to be publicly accused of launching personal attacks on people who I did not mention and who had nothing to do with the subject at hand.  It's bizarre, but it's the nature of the beast. 

If you talk about activism you won't get banned. This also protects you because if someone attacks you because of your activism, we will leap to your defense.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on November 19, 2014, 11:44:54 AMI don't mean to brag, but I'm a fairly major activist and community builder based in the national capital region.  I'm involved in big stuff for this community, like D.C. and FEHB trans* inclusive healthcare or the Fairness for All Marylanders Act gender identity non-discrimination law, I'm also a lawyer who follows and practices in trans* rights law.  I hope and believe that having someone like me here as a contributor is of value to the site and its membership.  Not many people can provide the kind of input, information, and knowledge that I can.  Most people who could do that are not very interested in talking much with average, ordinary, grassroots trans* people.  I happen to think they are wrong for paying so little attention to the grassroots, so I consider this to be worthwhile.  But in my line of work, sometimes things get said that are mistaken for personal attacks when they aren't.  (And in fairness, sometimes things get said that really are personal attacks, though I think I'm less prone to them than many).

We are glad you are here, and that you are out there working on our behalf.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on November 19, 2014, 11:44:54 AMBeing banned would not actually affect me very much beyond annoying me.  Reading is much more valuable to me than posting, and this is far from the only place to read.  But whatever value I may give to the membership in exchange would be lost.  So I'd like to understand where the lines are so that I don't get annoyed, I don't lose value, and I don't stop sharing useful stuff for fear of becoming annoyed or losing value.  Guidance would be appreciated.

Pretty much treat it like you would an argument in court! You can completely hate and loath the other lawyer, but you keep it civil because the rules require it. That's pretty much what we would like here, is for people to treat each other in a civil manner. If they do there will never be a problem.

Getting banned doesn't have to be that big of deal and apologies and a statement "I understand what I did wrong and won't do it again," always go a long way.

Quote from: cathyrains on November 19, 2014, 01:38:33 PM
Staff have repeatedly urged members to use the "report to moderator" function. What happens if the problem is with a moderator? My observation has been that very little, if anything, is done in these cases and sometimes results in banning of the person reporting the problem.

All reports are reviewed by multiple staff members. In most reports the staff work to a consensus before it's acted upon. I look  at closed reports; so does Cindy. Not even an admin can delete a report once it's made. It is there from now on. So reporting a post raises the level of attention and ensures that staff have actually seen the post in question.

Moderators are not allowed to moderate on threads that they have been an active participant on unless it's an emergency. They cannot also moderate posts made by members that they have had a personal relationship with. Many of our post reports are from moderators who are prohibited from moderating on the thread in question. That being said making a moderator action on a thread certainly does not prohibit them from taking further action when required. They most certainly cannot moderate on reports about their own posts.

One moderator got reported for making a statement of this fact in a thread. But it was simply them stating the official site policy.

Second moderators are held to a higher standard of behavior. I cannot stress  this enough. What's borderline acceptable from a member, could get a staff member in trouble.

Don't be afraid of TOS 10, it actually takes a lot to rise to that level. This modification was done to give me and the staff the tools to put an end to the little ongoing war between binary and non-binary members on the site. It simply clears up the fact that the staff have the right to deal with posts of that nature by removing the person from the site. The intention here is simply to get it to stop. Banning is not the preferred option even in that mess.  We are not going to go out of our way to ban people. These people tend to bring themselves to our attention.

The safest way to handle it if you feel you have been attacked is either respond dispassionately to the stated facts in the persons message while keeping a cool tone, or reporting that post to the moderation staff for their review.

One more thing ban in this context does not mean forever, a ban can be anywhere from 1 hour to life. It will all depend on the severity of what you said in the post in question. We reserve perm bans to extreme situations.

I have a very difficult choice to make now.

I just became a lightning rod due to a complex, very real identity, and a diagnosis and course of action criticised over and over again.  Born with a loving heart and deeply emotional and transparent, I bare all for the good of Nonbinary trans.

I don't know what passive aggressive means.  I know love and pain.  It is the world of trans.

In a heartbeat, friends that intervened for my sanity are gone.  The things and core issues that took me to the edge remain here, but not in me, not now.

But the section frankly has been decimated.  And my contribution was to say love each other and stop triggering, and finally just plain stop.

Why did that fail?


Why am I the only senior fully identified Nonbinary left, with some notable and very quiet exceptions?

It's not lack of conviction.

Typically now, all hell will break lose as they ask why is Sh'e talking about me? 

Interesting.

I can't speak without being told, against medical advice, that I have to do something else.

And then my friends, who are gone, speak from core values and either the fighter nature we develop to survive, or by leaving.
The war appears over.  They left, but the problem leave.  The deeper problem, that of blinding dysphoria and justifying it, remains, as does fear, pain, anger, and folks feeling threatened.

Conviction.

Do do what is right, what is true.  To stand up in troubled times, to change if needed.

And biblically it means to be charged with an error or remiss and feel awful for it.

My dear people of trans...are you feeling convicted or convictions?

Look within, the answers are in your core, you cannot escape your core, listen and hear your truth.  That truth could set you free.

Blessings

Satinjoy

I post this as Cindy - me. Not Cindy Forum Admin, not a Mod, just me.

I have just returned from TDOR in Adelaide, a fantastic night where we welcomed all, there was a couple of families with young T*kids, we had Buck Angel, Paige Phoenix, and many other as speakers. We had a minutes silence for our dead.

There was one Australian T*woman on the roll, She should not have been, not for her horrible death, but that she was a victim of domestic violence - her brutal murder was by her long term partner, not because she was trans* but because she was a woman who lived with a man who thought it was his right to control and dominate his partner.

The final few words were from my friend Kristyana, who very simply stated that the biggest threat and the most violence we have is from each other.

It is called lateral violence and comes in many forms. But it is the rejection of ourselves by members of our own community.

This is so true; as a trans*activist most of my hate mail comes from other trans*people.

I loath it.

I will put my Forum Admin hair shirt back on and clearly say that I will not have lateral violence on this site.

Asking questions is not lateral violence, disfranchising is. The difference can be subtle. That is were Admin come in to make a decision.

Rejection of others is lateral violence.
Rejection of the rules here (which BTW allow a lot of latitude) is lateral violence.
Refusal to talk and engage, is lateral violence.

So what are the consequences of such actions?
Rejection. Isolation. Disempowerment.

How does that affect the individual?
Another name on next years Honour Roll? - and we put it there.

How should we deal with it?
Run away and hide is our first response. It will disappear, I will wake up somewhere and be accepted. This our dream.

It doesn't work that way.
Problems are solved by talking about them.
But when we talk we talk civilly.

Quote from: Cindy on November 20, 2014, 06:12:17 AM
It is called lateral violence and comes in many forms. But it is the rejection of ourselves by members of our own community.

It's kinda sad that in the past I've had that both here at Susans and in the community here at home.

   I am just an old country woman born and raised on a 1/4 section farm in Iowa ,a beautiful place to grow up in. Life there  taught me that when a fox gets loose in the chicken house and runs freely the chickens will move and abandon their roost and take their value with them.Its not hard to figure out which has more value between the fox and the chickens.Always thought it funny that a fox always looked like it was smiling and I guess  it was in reality.   

Quote from: justpat on November 20, 2014, 06:21:01 AM
   I am just an old country woman born and raised on a 1/4 section farm in Iowa ,a beautiful place to grow up in. Life there  taught me that when a fox gets loose in the chicken house and runs freely the chickens will move and abandon their roost and take their value with them.Its not hard to figure out which has more value between the fox and the chickens.Always thought it funny that a fox always looked like it was smiling and I guess  it was in reality.

There more reasons in my life to walk away from this site than to stay (Ah no I'm not leaving) but just to have a post like this, makes me love you.

I think I'll have grits and gravy for breakfast. I just wish I knew what I was getting; road stone and meat sauce?

Oh, I will get soooo banned one day, lol

Well said Cindy. And you got that right Pat.

I identify as non binary but lean heavily female. Sometimes I can't even understand myself. One thing is why I feel so female but don't long for SRS or to be totally binary female. Is still break down though. I still feel dysphoria but have learned ways to deal with it. I guess I'm pretty lucky though in the aspect of dysphoria. But I still don't understand myself and why I feel like I do. Sometimes I'm scared to even talk about it though. But not from any attacks toward me. Nothing really offends me or hurts my feelings. This is just me but I have never felt like I have been personally attacked here. Believe me, I had to develop a type of psychological armor or I just plain wouldn't be here anymore. I would have been one of those that Cindy mentioned the moment of silence about. But I am so scared though that some of my experiences or even some questions that I have about myself may actually hurt someone else in the way of triggers, or be misconstrued as an attack or just seemingly non caring while trying to help someone else deal with their own questions.

Nope, I don't have anything together more than anyone else, maybe even less so. I just try to help when I can. Am I binary MTF? I don't know. I feel just as comfortable being female than anything else. Am I non binary MTF? I don't know that either. I feel just a secure in my identity as NB as I do using the full female part of my psyche. I am standing at a fork in the road and have been for a while. I have no idea which way to go. But one thing for sure though, I won't turn around and go back. That's not me anymore but I do feel stuck. The other day the dyphoria was so bad that all I did was cry and sleep and self loathe. When I get that bad I am so scared of coming on here because I don't want to hurt anyone else, or trigger anyone else with my insanity. And it was really a bad one. When it gets that bad I hate myself and everything about myself, even the biggest part of my personality and psychological makeup which is MTF or non binary MTF. It passes though but when I melt down like that I don't know what I may say that some may misunderstand as being an attack when it is really an attack on myself. That is what kind of scares me about the new banable offenses.

Pro tip: If you have a question or comment you're not sure about, just shoot it off to a Moderator and ask them if you can post it.

Quote from: Satinjoy on November 20, 2014, 03:42:14 AM
But the section frankly has been decimated.  And my contribution was to say love each other and stop triggering, and finally just plain stop.

Why did that fail?

I hope I can speak frankly about what I saw. I mean no offense to anyone - I don't think anyone behaved badly - but as someone who witnessed the trainwreck, I want to offer my observations.

1. Defensiveness. When you're dealing with transgender people, many of us have suffered such trauma that emotions will be triggered. It's inevitable. The problem here was that "you triggered me" was taken, on occasion, to be an accusation of callousness. On the other side the triggering behavior was taken as evidence of callousness.

Suggestion: When someone tells you they've been triggered, apologize. You did nothing wrong, but the results of your actions caused unhappiness. An apology will be helpful. When someone triggers you, give them the benefit of the doubt. Assume they did not mean to trigger you and that their comments were offered from a point of view of helpfulness.

2. Abrasiveness. Be aware that what passes for civility in some parts of the world can be taken as verbal assault in another part of the world.

Suggestion: Bend over backward to say things in the gentlest possible way. This will be hard for people like me, the child of two New Yorkers raised in the Northeast U.S., where "Douchebag!" is a term of endearment, and "Outta my way!" is a friendly greeting. But it can stop a lot of misunderstandings before they start.

3. Labeling and Preconceptions: I saw a lot of people develop preconceptions about certain members. "She doesn't respect us." "Whenever she talks about ... people, she puts us down." I also saw some members become convinced (possibly as a result), that they were being persecuted. I believe this resulted in a lot of reading meaning into statements that from someone else, or in some other circumstance would have been taken as benign.

Suggestion: Bend over backward to take each post at face value. Try to ignore the history behind your interaction with other members, and assume that they are offered with the best of intentions.

4. Reaction out of proportion: I saw smites, attribution of malice, and accusations of bias used as a first resort, rather than a last resort.

Suggestion: Whenever possible, seek peace. Trot out these weapons only as a last resort, when all other efforts to connect have been exhausted.

5. Reluctance to request moderation: I saw people try to take moderation in their own hands. I also saw a member take a request for moderation personally.

Suggestion: A request for moderation should be a first resort - the first thing we do when we're not sure how to handle a post we think is problematic. Realize when someone alerts a moderator, it's a move to avoid deterioration of the site, not a personal affront.

Don't know if this all helps, but I really wanted to answer your question.

Another tidbit that I hope helps, based on personal experience.

When i write on the internet, somehow the emotion I wanted to convey is stripped off and replaced often with a very negative one. Then people would get angry at me and I could not understand why.

To compensate this I have learned to use and abuse smileys. I use them to set the mood I want, making sure a wrong emotion/tone is not perceived.

As an example i did not use any up till now on purpose. Now this is the mood of my post



So hope this little trick works and helps 

At first the, I thought being told not to take somthing personal, that I might find personal a little impossible, but am I right in understanding that what is ment by this is....

If the thing that I take personal either breaks the tos or I believe it does, to use the report button, and in some sence not as the saying goes "take the law into my own hands"

And if I continue to post in a thread where I'm taking things personally, to keep things civil? And if I can't to that, in a sence walk away from somthing I'm finding I feel to strongly about to remain civil untill the heat wears off?

This in a sence would mean, I am free to be offended by that, that offends me but, the bannable offence is tied to a retaliation fueled by that offence?

So what this new ToS outlines is in affect the, they did it first and/or I was pravoked isn't a valid excuse? And no longer (if it did before) works as a get out of jail free card?

Sorry for any metaphorical confusions I might of caused.

(Here I go, rushing in where angels fear to tread.  But then, I never said I wasn't a fool...)

I hate to see this cast as binaries vs. non-binaries.  I've been hanging out in the non-binary forum for a while, and I've seen plenty of rather binary-seeming folk who made excellent company.  And I've seen people who label themselves non-binary piping up in the other forums (fora?) who seemed welcome there.

I think it's more a question of recognizing that we don't really know what someone else's life is like or what works or doesn't work for them.  What is meaningful and useful for one person is meaningless to the next.  Sometimes we just have to accept and respect someone else's place and perspective even if we don't understand it or if it even seems like nonsense to us.  For instance, I can't wrap my head around the idea of identifying with a gender.  Or Christianity as the center of someone's life.  But I know that for some here, one or the other or both is true.  I have to simply accept it as their truth and tread lightly when the conversation goes near one of these truths.  I suspect that where many of us who aren't binary are coming from is just as hard for some others here to understand.  When we forget how much we don't know and don't understand about someone else, we can inadvertently hurt them.

We also have to respect that sometimes people just have to vent and we don't have to respond, except maybe with some non-specific comforting words.  People have lots of stress in their lives, sometimes about things that they can only reveal or express here.

Anyway, I keep thinking of a phrase from some Internet standard I read (SMTP?): be liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you send.

The rules I try to follow: be decent, be respectful, be kind.

Sorry Asche but that was indeed the case in this situation and was clear that both sides in the issue felt that the other was imposing on or suppressing them. The only solution in those cases is to make it so that both sides back off so things can begin to cool down. That's exactly what I did pushed both sides away from each other until cooler heads can prevail. It's either that or continue to watch members from both groups deleting their accounts out of anger and frustration, and that's not a good solution for them or for the forum.

Basically that's it in a nutshell ButterflyVickster

Quote from: Cindy on November 20, 2014, 06:12:17 AM
I post this as Cindy - me. Not Cindy Forum Admin, not a Mod, just me.

I have just returned from TDOR in Adelaide, a fantastic night where we welcomed all, there was a couple of families with young T*kids, we had Buck Angel, Paige Phoenix, and many other as speakers. We had a minutes silence for our dead.

There was one Australian T*woman on the roll, She should not have been, not for her horrible death, but that she was a victim of domestic violence - her brutal murder was by her long term partner, not because she was trans* but because she was a woman who lived with a man who thought it was his right to control and dominate his partner.

The final few words were from my friend Kristyana, who very simply stated that the biggest threat and the most violence we have is from each other.

It is called lateral violence and comes in many forms. But it is the rejection of ourselves by members of our own community.

This is so true; as a trans*activist most of my hate mail comes from other trans*people.

I loath it.

I will put my Forum Admin hair shirt back on and clearly say that I will not have lateral violence on this site.

Asking questions is not lateral violence, disfranchising is. The difference can be subtle. That is were Admin come in to make a decision.

Rejection of others is lateral violence.
Rejection of the rules here (which BTW allow a lot of latitude) is lateral violence.
Refusal to talk and engage, is lateral violence.

So what are the consequences of such actions?
Rejection. Isolation. Disempowerment.

How does that affect the individual?
Another name on next years Honour Roll? - and we put it there.

How should we deal with it?
Run away and hide is our first response. It will disappear, I will wake up somewhere and be accepted. This our dream.

It doesn't work that way.
Problems are solved by talking about them.
But when we talk we talk civilly.

Thank You!

Quote from: Satinjoy on November 20, 2014, 03:42:14 AM
I have a very difficult choice to make now.

Sometimes courage is refusing to choose but embracing truth wherever it is found.  I am uncomfortable coming here, I am uncomfortable staying away.  There are new voices and new wisdom appearing from people who travel these paths every day.  Many will find their way here.  What I or anyone else says in these forums will not be long remembered.  But the truth I have found in the people I have come to know and love here continues.  I will not abandon anyone and yes I know I'm being wishy washy by walking back things I've written with great emotion and sincerity.  I have not forgotten what I have been given here, nor have I ceased to search for others who I can learn from in other venues.  This is not a competitive space or at least it ought not to be. I am reminded of an old campfire jingle (at least I think it was campfire)

"Make new friends, but keep the old,
One is silver and the other gold"

Both are precious and for me both are required for life.

Peace,
Julie