Yeah, finding out who you want to be in terms of identification is really hard sometimes, especially in that way. I've had problems with understanding who I wanted to be in terms of that, considering that I knew I liked being manly, yes, but I hadn't realized what I really wanted yet until just recently. Really, it's all about what you want to do with yourself and the things that you encounter. There's no definite label or sure-fire way to tell what you want until you really know or experience it yourself. Also, don't worry about labels. As much as people use them, it's all about how you feel. The labels can come later on, or, heck, even not at all.

Take care, and I hope you discover new and exciting things about you both now and in the future.

I never thought of myself as lesbian or butch but I was also never that much into women though I'm kind of pansexual, really, though I didn't figure that one out until I began to date my girlfriend. Before that I identified as male-attracted. To me, a big indicator was that I disliked marking myself as female when asked on say surveys, online sites and the like, and I'd stick with an unknown or other third variable whenever possible. Calling myself female felt wrong, period. It caused incredible psychological discomfort though I could never say why it did. It just didn't feel right. However, since I thought I was supposed to be female and label myself as such, I didn't think of the possibility that I could be male so I just went with unknown for I don't know how long.

What really triggered my move from unknown to male was when I really began to think about this and think deeply about how unknown had just been this cop-out for all these years. A cop-out of thinking I cannot be one thing because I'm told I cannot be, as opposed to how I really feel, while resenting the other option presented to me and who I was supposed to be. And most importantly, even though I wasn't trying very hard to be either male nor female in presentation though I did wear women's clothing at the time, I didn't feel happy with who I was. Female/other/queer wasn't who I really was. It's difficult to explain but I came to the conclusion that I should try out being male for a while, if I didn't like it, well I can always go back and then I've been there and done that and that's all there was to it. As it turns out, I didn't go back. I feel so much more happy with myself, who I am read as, treated as, how I present myself and how I can be overall than I ever did when I was female/other whatever. It just clicks.

Also, to go back to the butch thing, there's just a feeling... very difficult to describe or put into words, but just this feeling that butch women or women happy being women but wanting to venture into other kinds of female gender roles, just feel different from yourself, if you are a transman anyway. I'm friends with a woman who I would never classify as stereotype in any way possible because she's not, but despite that she's also very happy being a woman and the distinct difference between us is stark. Very difficult to put into words but I just know that our experiences differ. She's not unhappy with being a woman even though she doesn't feel like she wants to be womanly either, so to speak. And you notice this with butch women too. They may choose to look masculine but deep down they are women and they know it. Transmen don't have that, simply. They don't have the whole "I know I'm a woman on the inside and happy about it" going on.

I've always been pansexual rather than ever identifying as a lesbian, but for me the question was "am I sure I'm trans?", which is similar, and I think some of my thought processes might help you decide.

I made a list of gendered/sexed features such as body fat distribution, voice pitch, pronoun usage, name gender connotations, how I felt about my breasts, how I felt about my downstairs, how I felt about body hair, whether I wanted clit growth, how I felt about wearing dresses/stereotypically feminine clothes, etc. I considered how I felt about each, and more importantly, whether I felt that way only in public/in front of others, or if I would still feel that way if I was a hermit in a cave by myself. That last distinction helped me decide that I was trans, because I came to realize that a lot of the things I wanted to change about myself were things I would want even if there was nobody else around.

You're right though; some butch lesbians do bind, get top surgery, or pack. I think that's an example of the divide between gender identity and gender expression/presentation; they can still identify as female while altering their body and presentation in a way that satisfies them. And do remember when you're thinking about it that sexual preference and gender identity are separate topics, and while it can be a little tricky to separate them from each other when you're not sure of your identity, hopefully making a checklist and poking around at your genderfeels will help out with that. Best of luck!

Quote from: Aewin on November 23, 2014, 06:49:56 AM
I've always been pansexual rather than ever identifying as a lesbian, but for me the question was "am I sure I'm trans?", which is similar, and I think some of my thought processes might help you decide.

I made a list of gendered/sexed features such as body fat distribution, voice pitch, pronoun usage, name gender connotations, how I felt about my breasts, how I felt about my downstairs, how I felt about body hair, whether I wanted clit growth, how I felt about wearing dresses/stereotypically feminine clothes, etc. I considered how I felt about each, and more importantly, whether I felt that way only in public/in front of others, or if I would still feel that way if I was a hermit in a cave by myself. That last distinction helped me decide that I was trans, because I came to realize that a lot of the things I wanted to change about myself were things I would want even if there was nobody else around.

You're right though; some butch lesbians do bind, get top surgery, or pack. I think that's an example of the divide between gender identity and gender expression/presentation; they can still identify as female while altering their body and presentation in a way that satisfies them. And do remember when you're thinking about it that sexual preference and gender identity are separate topics, and while it can be a little tricky to separate them from each other when you're not sure of your identity, hopefully making a checklist and poking around at your genderfeels will help out with that. Best of luck!

Great post.  You laid it out really well.

Quote from: Aewin on November 23, 2014, 06:49:56 AM
I made a list of gendered/sexed features such as body fat distribution, voice pitch, pronoun usage, name gender connotations, how I felt about my breasts, how I felt about my downstairs, how I felt about body hair, whether I wanted clit growth, how I felt about wearing dresses/stereotypically feminine clothes, etc. I considered how I felt about each, and more importantly, whether I felt that way only in public/in front of others, or if I would still feel that way if I was a hermit in a cave by myself. That last distinction helped me decide that I was trans, because I came to realize that a lot of the things I wanted to change about myself were things I would want even if there was nobody else around.

Thanks for this, great idea. I've been keeping a journal to keep track of my thoughts, but I'll definitely try making lists and seeing whether that'll help me organize my thoughts some more. For some reason though, lately I've been feeling incredibly elated for the moments when I "feel like a guy," or "know that I'm trans," whatever that means.

I've been flipping out over this idea being talked about in this thread, that there are females who identify as butch (but presumably not male) who bind and generally pass as male. And that there are "stone" butches who dislike their ladybits being touched. I've never known a thing about this subculture or that these people even existed. I'm quite like them, aside from the glaring exceptions that I'm somehow also femme, and not at all a lesbian.  Which is confusing, since the only women whom I do identify with tend to be lesbians.

It all turns my brain into mush...

Come to think of it, this is partially why I've been MIA from Susan's...guh.

A relevant photography project:

http://mic.com/articles/106382/these-9-portraits-of-amazing-butches-are-shattering-stereotypes-about-masculinity

I hope this doesn't make anyone more confused, though. I just thought it was really interesting.

Quote from: blink on November 12, 2014, 08:54:32 AM
It's not common, but I've heard of some cis women, including butch lesbians, getting top surgery.
I've also heard of at least one person who initially considered themselves a butch lesbian, got top surgery, and after further reflection realized they were actually a trans man. It's probably best to take the approach of figuring out what you need, and doing that, rather than getting hung up on labels. If your chest makes you miserable, it's your right to have it changed to your liking, that sort of thing.

For me there were/are a ton of things that wouldn't match up to "butch woman". Some of them are comically obvious in hindsight, but somehow I missed the clue at the time. Things like:

- Wanting a deep voice and a beard
- Being incredibly irritated by being addressed/referred to as female, but elated and/or relieved when addressed as male
- Intense sense of not belonging in women's spaces, but belonging in men's (this is actually how I first started buying men's underwear - I couldn't bring myself to go into the ladies' department anymore, felt like a huge creep walking in there, but my only concern going into the men's was fear of being questioned or told I was "in the wrong section")
- Always avoiding ever referring to myself as a girl or a woman because it felt like a lie

Butch lesbians probably also don't wish to have male-typical genitalia, so in my case there's a big clue. Not everyone who transitions F to M is bothered by their downstairs, though, Buck Angel for instance.

Again, it might be more useful to you to focus on figuring out what you need, rather than focusing on labels. Unfortunately sometimes people can get so hung up on a label, that they might think they "have" to do this or that. Like some trans men thinking they "have" to get bottom surgery whether they actually want to or not, otherwise people might not take them seriously as a man. Stuff like that.

you said it better than i ever could've, man. i literally felt the same way growing up.

Truly, it is all about figuring out what makes YOU most comfortable in the world and LIVING as your true self.  A person may or may not have qualities that fall under an umbrella term or label.  We are all individuals...and while it may feel comforting to 'identify' as part of a group because it is normalizing, I believe labels have the capacity to suppress our expression and individuality.  There is no right or wrong in self discovery, there is just YOU...always a work in progress!